[Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

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[Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been merged
and deployed to the dewiki.

Just a friendly reminder that you don't forget WMF's inappropriate action.

[1]: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302
--
Revi
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Ricordisamoa
Yeah, I was just thinking it's time to revert it for good.

Il 11/08/2015 18:11, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:

> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been merged
> and deployed to the dewiki.
>
> Just a friendly reminder that you don't forget WMF's inappropriate action.
>
> [1]: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302
> --
> Revi
> https://revi.me
> -- Sent from Android --
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> merged
> and deployed to the dewiki.

And it's high time it got removed.

Laurentius



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Magnus Manske-2
Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> > merged
> > and deployed to the dewiki.
>
> And it's high time it got removed.
>
> Laurentius
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

John Lewis
On Tuesday, August 11, 2015, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
>
>
Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item on
Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several pages
following legal disputes.

Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool which can
prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide disruption.

John


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Dariusz Jemielniak-3
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item on
> Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several pages
> following legal disputes.
>
> Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool which can
> prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide
> disruption.
>
>
In my private opinion the technical part of Superprotect has a potential to
be useful, it is the social background (who approves its use, how it can be
used, etc.) that matters and that is the bone of contention (and justified
concerns). I have a hope that we will have it resolved before the next
anniversary or earlier :)

best,

dariusz "pundit"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Magnus Manske-2
So maybe it could stay, as a "technical office action" mechanism, if future
usage is clearly defined and accepted by "the community" (TM)?

Not advocating either way here...

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:13 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Lewis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item on
> > Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several pages
> > following legal disputes.
> >
> > Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool which
> can
> > prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide
> > disruption.
> >
> >
> In my private opinion the technical part of Superprotect has a potential to
> be useful, it is the social background (who approves its use, how it can be
> used, etc.) that matters and that is the bone of contention (and justified
> concerns). I have a hope that we will have it resolved before the next
> anniversary or earlier :)
>
> best,
>
> dariusz "pundit"
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Pine W
My preference would be to have stewards applying Superprotect rather than
WMF. There are cases where Superprotect makes sense, but given WMF's
history with it, I would prefer that it become a community tool.

Pine


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> So maybe it could stay, as a "technical office action" mechanism, if future
> usage is clearly defined and accepted by "the community" (TM)?
>
> Not advocating either way here...
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:13 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Lewis <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item
> on
> > > Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several pages
> > > following legal disputes.
> > >
> > > Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool which
> > can
> > > prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide
> > > disruption.
> > >
> > >
> > In my private opinion the technical part of Superprotect has a potential
> to
> > be useful, it is the social background (who approves its use, how it can
> be
> > used, etc.) that matters and that is the bone of contention (and
> justified
> > concerns). I have a hope that we will have it resolved before the next
> > anniversary or earlier :)
> >
> > best,
> >
> > dariusz "pundit"
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
<grin> did you consider the legal ramnifications ?
Thanks, </grin>
     GerardM

On 11 August 2015 at 22:14, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My preference would be to have stewards applying Superprotect rather than
> WMF. There are cases where Superprotect makes sense, but given WMF's
> history with it, I would prefer that it become a community tool.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Magnus Manske <
> [hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > So maybe it could stay, as a "technical office action" mechanism, if
> future
> > usage is clearly defined and accepted by "the community" (TM)?
> >
> > Not advocating either way here...
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:13 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Lewis <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item
> > on
> > > > Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several pages
> > > > following legal disputes.
> > > >
> > > > Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool
> which
> > > can
> > > > prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide
> > > > disruption.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > In my private opinion the technical part of Superprotect has a
> potential
> > to
> > > be useful, it is the social background (who approves its use, how it
> can
> > be
> > > used, etc.) that matters and that is the bone of contention (and
> > justified
> > > concerns). I have a hope that we will have it resolved before the next
> > > anniversary or earlier :)
> > >
> > > best,
> > >
> > > dariusz "pundit"
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Pine W
Can you clarify what you mean? If there are legal reasons for
superprotecting a page, I think that the stewards could handle that.

Pine


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> <grin> did you consider the legal ramnifications ?
> Thanks, </grin>
>      GerardM
>
> On 11 August 2015 at 22:14, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > My preference would be to have stewards applying Superprotect rather than
> > WMF. There are cases where Superprotect makes sense, but given WMF's
> > history with it, I would prefer that it become a community tool.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Magnus Manske <
> > [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > So maybe it could stay, as a "technical office action" mechanism, if
> > future
> > > usage is clearly defined and accepted by "the community" (TM)?
> > >
> > > Not advocating either way here...
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:13 PM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Lewis <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany
> item
> > > on
> > > > > Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several
> pages
> > > > > following legal disputes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Superprotect in my opinion if used correctly is an essential tool
> > which
> > > > can
> > > > > prevent legal and technical issues that can in theory cause wide
> > > > > disruption.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > In my private opinion the technical part of Superprotect has a
> > potential
> > > to
> > > > be useful, it is the social background (who approves its use, how it
> > can
> > > be
> > > > used, etc.) that matters and that is the bone of contention (and
> > > justified
> > > > concerns). I have a hope that we will have it resolved before the
> next
> > > > anniversary or earlier :)
> > > >
> > > > best,
> > > >
> > > > dariusz "pundit"
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > >
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect

If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this usage
at this talk page to keep an overview in future.

Greetings,
Romaine

2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:

> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> > > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> > > merged
> > > and deployed to the dewiki.
> >
> > And it's high time it got removed.
> >
> > Laurentius
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Risker
There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem with
translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF, because
there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.

There are also some examples currently being discussed on the Wikitech-L
list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection above
'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for another
level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much smaller
group or specific individuals to be the only editors.

Risker/Anne


On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
>
> If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this usage
> at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
>
> Greetings,
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> > > > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> > > > merged
> > > > and deployed to the dewiki.
> > >
> > > And it's high time it got removed.
> > >
> > > Laurentius
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Ricordisamoa
I trust administrators not to edit pages they shouldn't.

Il 11/08/2015 22:56, Risker ha scritto:

> There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
> pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
> Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
> individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem with
> translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF, because
> there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.
>
> There are also some examples currently being discussed on the Wikitech-L
> list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection above
> 'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for another
> level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much smaller
> group or specific individuals to be the only editors.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
> On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
>>
>> If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this usage
>> at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Romaine
>>
>> 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
>>>>> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
>>>>> merged
>>>>> and deployed to the dewiki.
>>>> And it's high time it got removed.
>>>>
>>>> Laurentius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> <
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Pine W
Most of the time, admins behave as we would hope. Occasionally they don't,
and on English Wikipedia when that happens often enough or seriously enough
in the opinion of Arbcom, the offending admins are desysopped. I think that
for legally sensitive pages, we'd be concerned about the possibility of
having wheel-warring administrators or hijacked admin accounts. The latter
can happen to anyone. Restricting certain pages to being edited only by
Stewards via superprotect would help to protect against the former.
Generally speaking I agree that standard "full protection" is sufficient,
and superprotect should only be invoked in rare cases. I would trust
Stewards to implement Superprotect at the request of the community, or upon
hearing good cause for doing so from WMF.

Pine


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ricordisamoa <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I trust administrators not to edit pages they shouldn't.
>
>
> Il 11/08/2015 22:56, Risker ha scritto:
>
>> There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
>> community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
>> pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
>> Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
>> individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem with
>> translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF, because
>> there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.
>>
>> There are also some examples currently being discussed on the Wikitech-L
>> list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection above
>> 'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for another
>> level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much smaller
>> group or specific individuals to be the only editors.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>> On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
>>>
>>> If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
>>> usage
>>> at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
>>>>>> merged
>>>>>> and deployed to the dewiki.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And it's high time it got removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laurentius
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> <
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
>>> >
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Risker
I hate to say it, but a hijacked Steward account is considerably more
dangerous than a hijacked admin account. It's extremely unlikely to happen
- our stewards are probably more aware of maintaining account security than
just about any other group of users. However, stewards under their current
process could very well find themselves in a situation where a "community"
wants to do something, like change the (global) terms of use or the
(global) interpretation of copyright policy....at which point their current
rules put them smack in the middle of the global community and WMF board
that approved a global policy, and a local community that wants to have its
own.  It's not a fair situation for them to be in.

As well, there will always be a need for an ability to lock a problem page
to address technical problems (in fact, I'm pretty sure there was some code
to do that from the back door, and Superprotect is probably the prettied-up
interface so others can do it), and if there's a problem that serious it is
going to ahve to remain in a broader range of hands.

Risker/Anne

On 11 August 2015 at 17:27, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most of the time, admins behave as we would hope. Occasionally they don't,
> and on English Wikipedia when that happens often enough or seriously enough
> in the opinion of Arbcom, the offending admins are desysopped. I think that
> for legally sensitive pages, we'd be concerned about the possibility of
> having wheel-warring administrators or hijacked admin accounts. The latter
> can happen to anyone. Restricting certain pages to being edited only by
> Stewards via superprotect would help to protect against the former.
> Generally speaking I agree that standard "full protection" is sufficient,
> and superprotect should only be invoked in rare cases. I would trust
> Stewards to implement Superprotect at the request of the community, or upon
> hearing good cause for doing so from WMF.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ricordisamoa <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I trust administrators not to edit pages they shouldn't.
> >
> >
> > Il 11/08/2015 22:56, Risker ha scritto:
> >
> >> There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> >> community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
> >> pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
> >> Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
> >> individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem
> with
> >> translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF,
> because
> >> there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.
> >>
> >> There are also some examples currently being discussed on the Wikitech-L
> >> list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection above
> >> 'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for another
> >> level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much smaller
> >> group or specific individuals to be the only editors.
> >>
> >> Risker/Anne
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
> >>>
> >>> If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
> >>> usage
> >>> at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
> >>>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>> Romaine
> >>>
> >>> 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]
> >:
> >>>
> >>> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> >>>>>> merged
> >>>>>> and deployed to the dewiki.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> And it's high time it got removed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Laurentius
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> <
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >>>
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> <
> >>>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >>> >
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Pine W
What I would hope for is guidance from the WMF Board that specifically
outlines when WMF invocation of superprotect is and isn't appropriate [1],
and which I believe is already being discussed internally by the Board.
With that done, my hope is that WMF will take a supportive approach to the
community, instead of a combative approach.

With those changes made, I think that the likelihood of another conflict
between the community and WMF over a superprotect-like issue would be low.
Appropriate uses for Superprotect upon community or WMF request could
include (1) legally sensitive documents like the TOS, (2) technically
sensitive pages that would otherwise be exposed to administrators who can
edit through full protection and should only be edited with consensus, or
because of urgent security or stability considerations, (3) pages which are
currently the subject of wheel-warring among local administrators, and (4)
pages which are currently the subject of a legal dispute that requires a
level of protection greater than standard full protection.

Pine

[1] WMF's first use of Superprotect having been a serious misjudgement for
which I would like to hear them more fully recant and apologize, and which
I would like to see categorized as an inappropriate use of superprotect in
the upcoming guidance from the Board.


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hate to say it, but a hijacked Steward account is considerably more
> dangerous than a hijacked admin account. It's extremely unlikely to happen
> - our stewards are probably more aware of maintaining account security than
> just about any other group of users. However, stewards under their current
> process could very well find themselves in a situation where a "community"
> wants to do something, like change the (global) terms of use or the
> (global) interpretation of copyright policy....at which point their current
> rules put them smack in the middle of the global community and WMF board
> that approved a global policy, and a local community that wants to have its
> own.  It's not a fair situation for them to be in.
>
> As well, there will always be a need for an ability to lock a problem page
> to address technical problems (in fact, I'm pretty sure there was some code
> to do that from the back door, and Superprotect is probably the prettied-up
> interface so others can do it), and if there's a problem that serious it is
> going to ahve to remain in a broader range of hands.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 11 August 2015 at 17:27, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Most of the time, admins behave as we would hope. Occasionally they
> don't,
> > and on English Wikipedia when that happens often enough or seriously
> enough
> > in the opinion of Arbcom, the offending admins are desysopped. I think
> that
> > for legally sensitive pages, we'd be concerned about the possibility of
> > having wheel-warring administrators or hijacked admin accounts. The
> latter
> > can happen to anyone. Restricting certain pages to being edited only by
> > Stewards via superprotect would help to protect against the former.
> > Generally speaking I agree that standard "full protection" is sufficient,
> > and superprotect should only be invoked in rare cases. I would trust
> > Stewards to implement Superprotect at the request of the community, or
> upon
> > hearing good cause for doing so from WMF.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ricordisamoa <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I trust administrators not to edit pages they shouldn't.
> > >
> > >
> > > Il 11/08/2015 22:56, Risker ha scritto:
> > >
> > >> There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> > >> community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be
> the
> > >> pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
> > >> Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
> > >> individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem
> > with
> > >> translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF,
> > because
> > >> there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.
> > >>
> > >> There are also some examples currently being discussed on the
> Wikitech-L
> > >> list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection
> above
> > >> 'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for
> another
> > >> level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much
> smaller
> > >> group or specific individuals to be the only editors.
> > >>
> > >> Risker/Anne
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
> > >>>
> > >>> If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
> > >>> usage
> > >>> at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
> > >>>
> > >>> Greetings,
> > >>> Romaine
> > >>>
> > >>> 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > >>>
> > >>> Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha
> scritto:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has
> been
> > >>>>>> merged
> > >>>>>> and deployed to the dewiki.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> And it's high time it got removed.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Laurentius
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>> <
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >>>
> > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >>> <
> > >>>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >>> >
> > >>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > [hidden email]
> > <
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> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Risker
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
<snip>

> There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
> pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.

<snip>

Since being full protected 6 years ago, Enwiki's current license page has
been edited by administrators nearly 50 times.  Most of those edits consist
of modifying categories, interwikis, navigational templates, similar
things.  Those edits probably aren't essential, but I would still say they
are useful.

Though hypothetically possible I can't think of any examples of an admin on
enwiki modifying a legal page in a harmful way, which makes it seem like
you have solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist.

-Robert Rohde


>
> On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
> >
> > If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
> usage
> > at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha scritto:
> > > > > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has been
> > > > > merged
> > > > > and deployed to the dewiki.
> > > >
> > > > And it's high time it got removed.
> > > >
> > > > Laurentius
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > >
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Risker
Who said the problem was on enwiki?

On 11 August 2015 at 17:58, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> > community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
> > pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
>
> <snip>
>
> Since being full protected 6 years ago, Enwiki's current license page has
> been edited by administrators nearly 50 times.  Most of those edits consist
> of modifying categories, interwikis, navigational templates, similar
> things.  Those edits probably aren't essential, but I would still say they
> are useful.
>
> Though hypothetically possible I can't think of any examples of an admin on
> enwiki modifying a legal page in a harmful way, which makes it seem like
> you have solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>
>
> >
> > On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
> > >
> > > If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
> > usage
> > > at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]
> >:
> > >
> > > > Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha
> scritto:
> > > > > > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has
> been
> > > > > > merged
> > > > > > and deployed to the dewiki.
> > > > >
> > > > > And it's high time it got removed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Laurentius
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > > >
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Robert Rohde
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Who said the problem was on enwiki?


If you think this issue is only a problem in some specific place or class
of wikis, then say so.  Otherwise, I would have to assume you consider it a
problem that exists everywhere, including the large wikis like enwiki.

-Robert Rohde



> On 11 August 2015 at 17:58, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > > There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
> > > community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
> > > pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Since being full protected 6 years ago, Enwiki's current license page has
> > been edited by administrators nearly 50 times.  Most of those edits
> consist
> > of modifying categories, interwikis, navigational templates, similar
> > things.  Those edits probably aren't essential, but I would still say
> they
> > are useful.
> >
> > Though hypothetically possible I can't think of any examples of an admin
> on
> > enwiki modifying a legal page in a harmful way, which makes it seem like
> > you have solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist.
> >
> > -Robert Rohde
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On 11 August 2015 at 16:43, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So far I know it has only be used once after the occasion, see:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Superprotect
> > > >
> > > > If anyone knows another occasion, I would like to ask to report this
> > > usage
> > > > at this talk page to keep an overview in future.
> > > >
> > > > Greetings,
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-11 20:28 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Out of curiosity, was it ever used again after that initial action?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:13 PM Laurentius <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Il giorno mer, 12/08/2015 alle 01.11 +0900, Hong, Yongmin ha
> > scritto:
> > > > > > > It has been a year (and a day) since the gerrit 153302 [1] has
> > been
> > > > > > > merged
> > > > > > > and deployed to the dewiki.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And it's high time it got removed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Laurentius
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

Risker
On 11 August 2015 at 18:05, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Who said the problem was on enwiki?
>
>
> If you think this issue is only a problem in some specific place or class
> of wikis, then say so.  Otherwise, I would have to assume you consider it a
> problem that exists everywhere, including the large wikis like enwiki.
>
>

The problem is most likely to occur on small wikis with comparatively few
active administrators. That doesn't mean it won't happen on a large wiki,
or that it hasn't.  Just because something doesn't happen on English
Wikipedia (whether good or bad) doesn't mean that it's unimportant or
irrelevant, or that it couldn't eventually happen on enwiki.  There's a
certain irony, after all the years of (sometimes quite justified) concerns
that this list is too enwiki-centric, that when someone makes a point that
doesn't necessarily apply to enwiki....well, I have to admit I found it
humorous.


Risker/Anne
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