[Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

svetlana
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!

if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party

instead of talking properly

then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all

you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
they didn't collaborate at all
they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from

i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake

this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

svetlana
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
>
> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party
>
> instead of talking properly
>
> then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
>
> you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> they didn't collaborate at all
> they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from
>
> i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
>
> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people

sysops aren't even held accountable
they are elected once for an infinite term
nobody reviews their contribution in position in power ever

this would surely be solved by making them elected on a 2-year term
then re-elect

svetlana

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

John Mark Vandenberg
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:48 AM, svetlana <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
>> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
>> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
>> > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
>>
>> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party
>>
>> instead of talking properly
>>
>> then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
>>
>> you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
>> desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
>> they didn't collaborate at all
>> they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from
>>
>> i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
>>
>> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people
>
> sysops aren't even held accountable
> they are elected once for an infinite term
> nobody reviews their contribution in position in power ever
>
> this would surely be solved by making them elected on a 2-year term
> then re-elect

Hi svetlana, there are several large wikis which have sysop
re-election policies; notably, German Wikipedia.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Pete Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by svetlana
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
>
> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> the other party


"Using force" could equally well apply to implementing a feature without
sufficient buy-in, and then refusing to roll it back when so requested.

The WMF's basis for concluding that readers are better served with the MV
than without it is riddled with holes, as exhaustively explained elsewhere.

You talk about admin accountability, Svetlana -- but what about
accountability for the WMF, when it makes sweeping changes that (among
other things) remove any suggestion of an "edit" functionality from "the
encyclopedia anyone can edit" from millions and millions of pages?

Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by svetlana
If the WF wasn't so willing to use force (i.e. pushing unwanted changes)
against the other party

instead of talking properly

then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all

you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
they didn't collaborate at all
they added Media Viewer as if it was something urgent, that will save people

this WMF thinks that its power structures allow it to tromp onto other
people

Works perfectly the other way too, doesn't it?


On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:46 PM, svetlana <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
>
> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> the other party
>
> instead of talking properly
>
> then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
>
> you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> they didn't collaborate at all
> they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving
> people from
>
> i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
>
> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other
> people
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
2014-08-12 21:41 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Henning Schlottmann <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > There is a common pattern in the conflicts between WMF and several
> > communities over software developments during the last few years. As I
> > wrote two weeks ago to Rachel:
> >
> > | Decision making seems to be focused on reader experience, including
> > | winning readers to become authors, but existing authors and their
> > | experience (in both meanings of the word) is ignored. Even by people |
> > like Eric, who once was a prolific author himself
> >
> > | Authors see themselves as the single most important group in the
> > |Wikimedia universe. Without their content, there would be nothing: No
> > | readers, no fundraising banners, no donations, no employees, no
> > | foundation. On the other hand, WMF seems to see the readers (and
> > | donors) as their main target audience. Of course WMF knows, that all
> > | the projects need content and authors, but in my opinion most of them
> > | fail in appreciating the existing authors and focus too much on
> > | winning readers to become authors, by simplifying the entry.
> >
> > This is serious. WMF really needs to appreciate the expertise of the
> > author community and accept their experience a important and valid. If
> > authors tell the WMF and particularly the devs, that a particular
> > function is necessary, then the devs really, really need to think.
> >
>
> I do agree with this. Visual Editor (which works much better these days)
> and MediaViewer are not aimed at the experienced editor. They aim to make
> the reader more comfortable, and try to ease the first steps into editing.
> Winning new editors has been deemed a priority, somewhat at the expense of
> WMF-made support for the power user. This is a judgement call the
> Foundation has to make.
>

I am not sure how it is for other wikis but we have seen bugs in the Visual
Editor which cause newbies to do wrong edits (like removing stuff which a.
should not be removed, b. was not intented to be removed by the newby) that
other users can repair later. If new software causes us extra work, purely
because of problems in the software itself, the software is absolutely not
ready to set on by default. And we are not talking about an extra tool but
about a basic functionality that is going to be used massively with many
many changes in many pages.

The first priority is having the software work well on a basic level (and
the servers in general). The second priority is to attract more new
editors.


 > Until this event, I thought the dev process to be broken, not just the

> > communication around devs. But now I believe the conflict runs deeper.
> >
>
> It points out an issue we (community and WMF) should discuss, in a more
> general sense. What should the decision process be for technical changes?
> When does the Foundation get precendence, and when should the community
> have the last word? What weight should small-scale "votes" of editors have?
> Should random polls be done, and included in such votes? Etc.
>
> The MediaViewer "affair" itself gets blown out of proportion IMO.
>

I fully agree. If a community really has serious problems, these should be
carefully considered and the community should be attacked on various ways
by WMF. At the current situation, WMF thinks in my opinion to lightly about
the role of the community, and to lightly about how she can behave towards
a community. We all want the best of each other, than this is not the way
to do that.

Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by svetlana
2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
>
> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> the other party
>

You miss a very important thing here: the community does not want to use
such measure at all, but is forced to this by the inappropriate behaviour
of some WMF staff. The community gets the feeling that it isn't listened
to, while it has serious points and considerations which are stepped over
too lightly. And as I said before, we are all on the same ship. Sure a
captain must make decisions, but if parts have serious comments, issues,
and critics, such should not be ignored.


> instead of talking properly
>
> then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
>
> you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> they didn't collaborate at all
> they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving
> people from
>
> i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
>
> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other
> people
>

I do not think the community thinks that way. Members of the community can
make mistake and staff members of WMF can make mistakes, I think that both
that community and WMF are grown up enough to correct mistakes if they
arise. Certainly inside the community are many critical people who watch
these kind of things carefully and do correct those things when a mistake
is made.

The German community did collaborate, did communicate. Having a voting is a
desperate way of getting the attention of the big problems WMF has too
little insight in apparently. The community does not think in power
structures, WMF does.

Just as in 2013, again the problems start inside WMF and not in the
community, and the community reacts on it.

Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Pine W
Two points I have heard off list are that 1. While it may be that disabling
MV by default for logged-in users can be done, disabling it for those not
logged-in is effectively another major UI change which a study shows likely
will make some of them leave and not return; 2. German Wikimedians are
going inactive in protest.

Can someone confirm that both of those points are true? If so, this puts
WMF in an even more difficult position. Perhaps the communities could be I
persuaded to leave MV enabled by default for logged-out users and WMF would
agree to release superprotection and disable MV by default for logged in
users.

I fear that already volunteers may be  leaving who will not return.

Pine

On Aug 12, 2014 6:42 AM, "Romaine Wiki" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care
> very
> > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong
> on
> > > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
> >
> > if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> > the other party
> >
>
> You miss a very important thing here: the community does not want to use
> such measure at all, but is forced to this by the inappropriate behaviour
> of some WMF staff. The community gets the feeling that it isn't listened
> to, while it has serious points and considerations which are stepped over
> too lightly. And as I said before, we are all on the same ship. Sure a
> captain must make decisions, but if parts have serious comments, issues,
> and critics, such should not be ignored.
>
>
> > instead of talking properly
> >
> > then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
> >
> > you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> > desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> > they didn't collaborate at all
> > they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving
> > people from
> >
> > i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
> >
> > this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other
> > people
> >
>
> I do not think the community thinks that way. Members of the community can
> make mistake and staff members of WMF can make mistakes, I think that both
> that community and WMF are grown up enough to correct mistakes if they
> arise. Certainly inside the community are many critical people who watch
> these kind of things carefully and do correct those things when a mistake
> is made.
>
> The German community did collaborate, did communicate. Having a voting is a
> desperate way of getting the attention of the big problems WMF has too
> little insight in apparently. The community does not think in power
> structures, WMF does.
>
> Just as in 2013, again the problems start inside WMF and not in the
> community, and the community reacts on it.
>
> Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske
> <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Like many other "old hands", it seems to get in the way of my workflow. Not
>> an issue for me, as long as I can turn it off.

hehe, i suppose investing a million $$ to get you turning it off because it is
in your way is probably not the goal :)

>> It's probably fine for "modern" viewing, although it's hard to guess that
>> you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who (in all
>> likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons.

> Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're
> preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience,
> potentially including
> - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it
> - moving disable action above-the-fold
> - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely
> - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source
> of metadata
> - separating out download/use actions more clearly
>
> These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want
> to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see
> http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please

magnus, do these changes make you turn it on again? if not, what would need
to be better?

i think there is two kinds of feedback. (1) technical / feature / workflow
issues. like "i cannot tag easy", "esc leaves mediaviewer instead of
fullscreen", "browser zoom (ctrl-/+) does not work". "X takes one click
more now". i d love this to be taken into account.

while i find design issues more difficult. the whole user experience
needs, at least imo, consistency. tinkering here and there
may quite heavily break that. better would be to encourage
getting alternative full designs. if this would include how to
clean the commons page ... but that might be too much :)

rupert

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by svetlana
On 13.08.2014 02:48, svetlana wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote:

>> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto
>> other people
>
> sysops aren't even held accountable
> they are elected once for an infinite term
> nobody reviews their contribution in position in power ever
>
> this would surely be solved by making them elected on a 2-year term
> then re-elect
>
> svetlana
>

Sounds exactly like an indeffed former contributor to the Russian
Wikipedia.

I do not think we should discuss the administrator elections on this
list. Anyway, there are projects where administrators only get elected
for a finite period.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Pine W
On 13.08.2014 05:57, Pine W wrote:

> Two points I have heard off list are that 1. While it may be that
> disabling
> MV by default for logged-in users can be done, disabling it for those
> not
> logged-in is effectively another major UI change which a study shows
> likely
> will make some of them leave and not return; 2. German Wikimedians are
> going inactive in protest.
>
> Can someone confirm that both of those points are true?

Point 2 is essentially impossible to confirm. People are coming,
leaving and sometimes coming back (when I left the Russian Wikipedia in
2011, most of my opponents just said they are sure I was playing games
and would be back soon). You never know why they leave, and even if they
have left a clear message you never know how serious it is. It is quite
unlikely that on a short term a significant share of active users will
leave or has left - the German Wikipedia is not the Acehnese Wikipedia,
and even if a dozen of users would leave at the same time, it can not be
detected by the editing statistics. The long-time consequences and
trends can of course be detected but then you would need to reach the
active users who really have left and asked them why they left - it is
unlikely anybody would successfully perform such study.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

svetlana
In reply to this post by Pete Forsyth-2
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very
> > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on
> > > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
> >
> > if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> > the other party
>
>
> [...]
>
> You talk about admin accountability, Svetlana -- but what about
> accountability for the WMF, when it makes sweeping changes that (among
> other things) remove any suggestion of an "edit" functionality from "the
> encyclopedia anyone can edit" from millions and millions of pages?
>
> Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]

Surely this issue can be solved by talking without force: if you don't think so, you get force applied to YOU; you started a fight, and lost it. Because you went and did something contradicting user preferences; WMF did not. You'd think it's "better" because it's "unchanged compared to what it was X months ago", and that justifies your thing? No, it does not.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

svetlana
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 12:01, Romaine Wiki wrote:

> 2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana <[hidden email]>:
> > [..]
> [...]
> > instead of talking properly
> >
> > then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
> >
> > you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> > desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> > they didn't collaborate at all
> > they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving
> > people from
> >
> > i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
> >
> > this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other
> > people
> >
>
> I do not think the community thinks that way.

It doesn't think so inherently, but it lacks some useful habits.

> Members of the community can
> make mistake and staff members of WMF can make mistakes, I think that both
> that community and WMF are grown up enough to correct mistakes if they
> arise. Certainly inside the community are many critical people who watch
> these kind of things carefully and do correct those things when a mistake
> is made.
>
> The German community did collaborate, did communicate. Having a voting is a
> desperate way of getting the attention of the big problems WMF has too
> little insight in apparently. The community does not think in power
> structures, WMF does.

Writing an RFC is a complicated process. You don't ask people whether they want to go backwards, for one; they almost always do, but it is not always a good thing.

svetlana

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[Wikimedia-l] Writing an RFC is a complicated process. Thoughts? (was: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you)

svetlana
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 20:36, svetlana wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 12:01, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > 2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana <[hidden email]>:
> > > [..]
> > [...]
> > > instead of talking properly
> > >
> > > then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
> > >
> > > you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> > > desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> > > they didn't collaborate at all
> > > they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving
> > > people from
> > >
> > > i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
> > >
> > > this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other
> > > people
> > >
> >
> > I do not think the community thinks that way.
>
> It doesn't think so inherently, but it lacks some useful habits.
>
> > Members of the community can
> > make mistake and staff members of WMF can make mistakes, I think that both
> > that community and WMF are grown up enough to correct mistakes if they
> > arise. Certainly inside the community are many critical people who watch
> > these kind of things carefully and do correct those things when a mistake
> > is made.
> >
> > The German community did collaborate, did communicate. Having a voting is a
> > desperate way of getting the attention of the big problems WMF has too
> > little insight in apparently. The community does not think in power
> > structures, WMF does.
>
> Writing an RFC is a complicated process. You don't ask people whether they want to go backwards, for one; they almost always do, but it is not always a good thing.
>
> svetlana

I started drafting some thoughts on what /not to do/ in an RFC.
These thoughts can be found here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment#Guidelines

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:51 AM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >> Like many other "old hands", it seems to get in the way of my workflow.
> Not
> >> an issue for me, as long as I can turn it off.
>
> hehe, i suppose investing a million $$ to get you turning it off because
> it is
> in your way is probably not the goal :)
>

Well, for a million $$ MediaViewer would be slightly overpriced ;-)



>
> >> It's probably fine for "modern" viewing, although it's hard to guess
> that
> >> you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who (in
> all
> >> likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons.
>
> > Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're
> > preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience,
> > potentially including
> > - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it
> > - moving disable action above-the-fold
> > - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely
> > - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source
> > of metadata
> > - separating out download/use actions more clearly
> >
> > These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want
> > to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see
> > http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please
>
> magnus, do these changes make you turn it on again? if not, what would need
> to be better?
>

I think this is a non-issue. It took one click to get to the image page;
now it takes two. That's my main "problem" with it.
As I said, I'm not the target audience for this. I hope.


>
> i think there is two kinds of feedback. (1) technical / feature / workflow
> issues. like "i cannot tag easy", "esc leaves mediaviewer instead of
> fullscreen", "browser zoom (ctrl-/+) does not work". "X takes one click
> more now". i d love this to be taken into account.
>
> while i find design issues more difficult. the whole user experience
> needs, at least imo, consistency. tinkering here and there
> may quite heavily break that. better would be to encourage
> getting alternative full designs. if this would include how to
> clean the commons page ... but that might be too much :)
>
> rupert
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Pete Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by svetlana
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:27 AM, svetlana <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote:
> > > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care
> very
> > > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going
> wrong on
> > > > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues!
> > >
> > > if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against
> > > the other party
> >
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > You talk about admin accountability, Svetlana -- but what about
> > accountability for the WMF, when it makes sweeping changes that (among
> > other things) remove any suggestion of an "edit" functionality from "the
> > encyclopedia anyone can edit" from millions and millions of pages?
> >
> > Pete
> > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> Surely this issue can be solved by talking without force: if you don't
> think so, you get force applied to YOU; you started a fight, and lost it.


I have advocated using force? Where?! Please don't answer -- I am done with
this thread, it has no basis in reality.


> Because you went and did something contradicting user preferences; WMF did
> not. You'd think it's "better" because it's "unchanged compared to what it
> was X months ago", and that justifies your thing? No, it does not.
>

I don't even know what you're talking about here. But again -- let's let it
go.

Pete
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
Am 13.08.2014 15:56 schrieb "Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:51 AM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > >> It's probably fine for "modern" viewing, although it's hard to guess
> > that
> > >> you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who
(in

> > all
> > >> likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons.
> >
> > > Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're
> > > preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience,
> > > potentially including
> > > - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it
> > > - moving disable action above-the-fold
> > > - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely
> > > - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source
> > > of metadata
> > > - separating out download/use actions more clearly
> > >
> > > These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want
> > > to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see
> > > http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please
> >
> > magnus, do these changes make you turn it on again? if not, what would
need
> > to be better?
> >
>
> I think this is a non-issue. It took one click to get to the image page;
> now it takes two. That's my main "problem" with it.
> As I said, I'm not the target audience for this. I hope.

to give back the one click experience one would need two entry points. a
tab or a toolbox link to start mediaviewer, and standard behavior on the
images. for one link more in the gui everybody would be happy?

rupert
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Trillium Corsage
In reply to this post by svetlana


13.08.2014, 01:46, "svetlana" <[hidden email]>:

>
> if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party
>
> instead of talking properly
>
> then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all
>
> you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it?
> desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating
> they didn't collaborate at all
> they added the js hack as if it was something urgent, that needs saving people from
>
> i would only do this if someone added a virus into mv by mistake
>
> this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people

I agree with your thinking here Svetlana, but would disagree with your terminology that the vocal complainers about superprotect should be shorthanded as "the community." That is what they like to think of themselves, but they are really a minority of the community. They are the administrative culture. They are not really the editors, not really the readers, both of those groups dwarf the administrators and administrative participants.

The community is all the readers, all the editors, and after them in size the vocal and visible administrative set. So Mr. Moeller shouldn't feel intimidated, and clearly doesn't, when a bunch of very loud people writes volumes of complaining text on discussion pages insisting that he has affronted "the community."

Trillium Corsage

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:20 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Am 13.08.2014 15:56 schrieb "Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:51 AM, rupert THURNER <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Magnus Manske
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > > >> It's probably fine for "modern" viewing, although it's hard to guess
> > > that
> > > >> you get to the file page via the little Commons icon for people who
> (in
> > > all
> > > >> likelihood) have never seen that icon, or visited Commons.
> > >
> > > > Indeed, the icon to the File: page is currently very opaque. We're
> > > > preparing for a round of possible changes to the viewing experience,
> > > > potentially including
> > > > - moving caption above the fold so readers don't have to hunt for it
> > > > - moving disable action above-the-fold
> > > > - potentially eliminating the below-the-fold panel entirely
> > > > - emphasizing the File: page more prominently as the canonical source
> > > > of metadata
> > > > - separating out download/use actions more clearly
> > > >
> > > > These changes will need to be carefully tested/validated. If you want
> > > > to take a look at an early early (!) prototype (!!), see
> > > > http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/wiki/Lightbox_demo , but please
> > >
> > > magnus, do these changes make you turn it on again? if not, what would
> need
> > > to be better?
> > >
> >
> > I think this is a non-issue. It took one click to get to the image page;
> > now it takes two. That's my main "problem" with it.
> > As I said, I'm not the target audience for this. I hope.
>
> to give back the one click experience one would need two entry points. a
> tab or a toolbox link to start mediaviewer, and standard behavior on the
> images. for one link more in the gui everybody would be happy?
>

Thanks for trying, but I wouldn't like to have some "click confusion" to be
added on my part. This is not really the issue that's being discussed here.
Some people felt that MediaViewer is too buggy to be default right now. WMF
disagreed. Disagreement escalated. This needs to calm down again. A quick
single-point tech fix won't make it go away, I'm afraid.

To be clear, I did not vote in the Meinungsbild, because I have no strong
feeling about the MediaViewer one way or the other.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Marc-Andre
In reply to this post by Trillium Corsage
On 08/13/2014 01:31 PM, Trillium Corsage wrote:
> [...] that he has affronted "the community."

I've spent no small amount of years involved in the various layers of
administrative/governance/meta aspects of the English Wikipedia and from
this I learned one lesson:

"Whenever someone says 'the community' without qualifying this to an
enumerable set of users means the assertion is definitely false."

There is no such thing as "the community"; we have a huge collection of
communities joined loosely over a number of ambigously shared principles
that often - but not always - move in more or less the same direction.

Anyone who claims to speak for "the community" is - put simply - full of
shit.

-- Marc


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