[Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

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[Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

James Salsman-2
Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!

What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
people to collect and develop educational content:

http://bit.ly/wikimission

The survey results are summarized after form submission.

Best regards,
Jim Salsman

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Kevin Payravi
I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has no
origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?

Thanks,
Kevin

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:

> Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
>
> What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> people to collect and develop educational content:
>
> http://bit.ly/wikimission
>
> The survey results are summarized after form submission.
>
> Best regards,
> Jim Salsman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Benjamin Ikuta


I also assumed that, and was quite concerned.



> On Jan 16, 2019, at 1:22 AM, Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
> here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has no
> origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
>>
>> What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
>> contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
>> Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
>> people to collect and develop educational content:
>>
>> http://bit.ly/wikimission
>>
>> The survey results are summarized after form submission.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jim Salsman
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Dan Garry (Deskana)
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
James,

As is fairly typical with your proposals, most of the proposals in the
survey (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
do with the Foundation's mission. If you're going to do a survey, I suggest
actually connecting it to the Foundation's mission, although sadly it seems
that suggestions like this fall on deaf ears.

Dan

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 02:21, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
>
> What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> people to collect and develop educational content:
>
> http://bit.ly/wikimission
>
> The survey results are summarized after form submission.
>
> Best regards,
> Jim Salsman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Kevin Payravi
On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
> here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has no
> origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?

Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:

https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
> do with the Foundation's mission.

That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.

> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
>
> > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> >
> > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > people to collect and develop educational content:
> >
> > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> >
> > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jim Salsman

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Risker
I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for his
own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the WMF
or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions are
an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.

Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
contributor to this list.

Risker/Anne

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
> > here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has
> no
> > origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
>
> Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
> encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
> which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
> given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
>
> https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
> https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
> > do with the Foundation's mission.
>
> That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
> idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
> proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
> contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
>
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> > >
> > > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > > people to collect and develop educational content:
> > >
> > > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> > >
> > > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Jim Salsman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Benjamin Ikuta


I'll admit I was initially deceived by his initial message.



> On Jan 16, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for his
> own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the WMF
> or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
> that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions are
> an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
>
> Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
> perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
> step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
> occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
> contributor to this list.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
>>> here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has
>> no
>>> origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
>>
>> Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
>> encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
>> which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
>> given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
>> https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
>>> do with the Foundation's mission.
>>
>> That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
>> idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
>> proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
>> contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
>>>>
>>>> What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
>>>> contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
>>>> Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
>>>> people to collect and develop educational content:
>>>>
>>>> http://bit.ly/wikimission
>>>>
>>>> The survey results are summarized after form submission.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Jim Salsman
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Risker
Hoi,
I am troubled with the ease doubt is raised about people contributing to
this mailing list/ our community/ our projects. This is a mailing list that
has the option of moderation. That is already in itself a sure way of
driving people away. However, it is not the same as going whole hog and ban
like it is proposed.

Our community needs to have a plurality of points of view and for me this
is yet another moment where the view point of others is not respected, a
moment where we are way too aggressive in ostracising someone who has been
with us for a long time. I have seen on multiple occasions how people with
a long track record become lost to us. All because of  what, the greater
good?

Sad indeed.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 19:05, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for his
> own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the WMF
> or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
> that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions are
> an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
>
> Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
> perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
> step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
> occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
> contributor to this list.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's
> clear
> > > here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has
> > no
> > > origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
> >
> > Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
> > encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
> > which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
> > given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
> >
> > https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
> > https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
> > > do with the Foundation's mission.
> >
> > That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
> > idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
> > proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
> > contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
> >
> > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > > > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> > > >
> > > > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > > > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > > > people to collect and develop educational content:
> > > >
> > > > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> > > >
> > > > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Jim Salsman
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Risker
The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.
Why are these questions so offensive to the vocal minority who have
demanded that they not be discussed? Many nonprofit organizations
depending on volunteer labor advocates for social changes in support
of those volunteers, including by lobbying.




On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for his
> own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the WMF
> or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
> that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions are
> an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
>
> Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
> perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
> step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
> occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
> contributor to this list.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's clear
> > > here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and has
> > no
> > > origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
> >
> > Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
> > encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
> > which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
> > given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
> >
> > https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
> > https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little to
> > > do with the Foundation's mission.
> >
> > That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
> > idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
> > proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
> > contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
> >
> > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > > > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> > > >
> > > > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > > > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > > > people to collect and develop educational content:
> > > >
> > > > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> > > >
> > > > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Jim Salsman
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Alex Power
Presumably a large majority of people didn't bother to respond to the
survey.

If you want to continue running surveys pushing your personal agenda until
everyone except your fan-club ignores you and you get the results you want,
I can't stop you, I can merely castigate you and recommend that the
Foundation ignore you.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 12:48 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.
> Why are these questions so offensive to the vocal minority who have
> demanded that they not be discussed? Many nonprofit organizations
> depending on volunteer labor advocates for social changes in support
> of those volunteers, including by lobbying.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for
> his
> > own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the
> WMF
> > or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
> > that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions
> are
> > an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
> >
> > Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
> > perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
> > step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
> > occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
> > contributor to this list.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's
> clear
> > > > here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and
> has
> > > no
> > > > origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
> > >
> > > Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
> > > encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
> > > which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
> > > given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
> > > https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little
> to
> > > > do with the Foundation's mission.
> > >
> > > That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
> > > idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
> > > proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
> > > contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> > > > >
> > > > > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > > > > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > > > > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > > > > people to collect and develop educational content:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> > > > >
> > > > > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Jim Salsman
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 18:27, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Lane Rasberry
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
Risker raises the point of moderating research requests. I do not want to
comment on this survey in particular, but in general, many researchers
target the wiki community continually. We do not have community capacity to
endlessly complete surveys, and I would like survey moderation.

Access to the wiki community is a privilege because we all pay a cost when
anyone makes a request for time, attention, and labor. Wiki community time
is not an unlimited free asset for the world to solicit.

Here is a live discussion about this centered on something I wrote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Background

here it is archived.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)&oldid=878717026#Background

James, I appreciate your interest in research. I do wish you would register
your research and conform to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_project
but currently, we have no wiki community rules that say for people to
register research. If anyone is upset about your research, then I wish that
the response to be to set general policy and practices for the many
surveyors and researchers seeking labor from Wiki community spaces and not
only look at this one channel, and this one survey.

thanks -


On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.
> Why are these questions so offensive to the vocal minority who have
> demanded that they not be discussed? Many nonprofit organizations
> depending on volunteer labor advocates for social changes in support
> of those volunteers, including by lobbying.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for
> his
> > own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the
> WMF
> > or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
> > that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions
> are
> > an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
> >
> > Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
> > perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
> > step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
> > occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
> > contributor to this list.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's
> clear
> > > > here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and
> has
> > > no
> > > > origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
> > >
> > > Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
> > > encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
> > > which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
> > > given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
> > > https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little
> to
> > > > do with the Foundation's mission.
> > >
> > > That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
> > > idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
> > > proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
> > > contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
> > > > >
> > > > > What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
> > > > > contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
> > > > > Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
> > > > > people to collect and develop educational content:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://bit.ly/wikimission
> > > > >
> > > > > The survey results are summarized after form submission.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Jim Salsman
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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206.801.0814
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Pete Forsyth-2
+1 to what Lane says.

I will not comment here on whether or not a specific user should be
removed from the list, but I do feel that a survey like this one should
not be sent to this list, especially from only one person without any
apparent peer vetting etc. I would generally support considered actions
from list moderators to reduce the number of notifications like this one.

-Pete

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[[User:Peteforsyth]] on meta etc.


On 1/16/19 11:04 AM, Lane Rasberry wrote:

> Risker raises the point of moderating research requests. I do not want to
> comment on this survey in particular, but in general, many researchers
> target the wiki community continually. We do not have community capacity to
> endlessly complete surveys, and I would like survey moderation.
>
> Access to the wiki community is a privilege because we all pay a cost when
> anyone makes a request for time, attention, and labor. Wiki community time
> is not an unlimited free asset for the world to solicit.
>
> Here is a live discussion about this centered on something I wrote.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Background
>
> here it is archived.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)&oldid=878717026#Background
>
> James, I appreciate your interest in research. I do wish you would register
> your research and conform to
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_project
> but currently, we have no wiki community rules that say for people to
> register research. If anyone is upset about your research, then I wish that
> the response to be to set general policy and practices for the many
> surveyors and researchers seeking labor from Wiki community spaces and not
> only look at this one channel, and this one survey.
>
> thanks -
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.
>> Why are these questions so offensive to the vocal minority who have
>> demanded that they not be discussed? Many nonprofit organizations
>> depending on volunteer labor advocates for social changes in support
>> of those volunteers, including by lobbying.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I regret to say that I feel James has abused this forum once again for
>> his
>>> own personal agenda, much of which is unrelated even indirectly to the
>> WMF
>>> or the Wikimedia movement. Further, I feel that he has done so in a way
>>> that is deceptive to members of this mailing list, and that his actions
>> are
>>> an abuse of the trust of the members of this mailing list.
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, I'm pretty tolerant of people bringing different
>>> perspectives and ideas to this mailing list; however, I believe this is a
>>> step too far for someone who has been asked in the past on multiple
>>> occasions to stay on topic.  I am not sure that James needs to remain a
>>> contributor to this list.
>>>
>>> Risker/Anne
>>>
>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:56, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:23 AM Kevin Payravi <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I've heard confusion from a couple folks and want to make sure it's
>> clear
>>>>> here that this survey is coming from you as an individual, Jim, and
>> has
>>>> no
>>>>> origination or coordination with the Foundation - correct?
>>>> Yes, the survey is just from me, not the Foundation. I'm trying to
>>>> encourage the Executive Director to bring back the "Letter to Donors"
>>>> which was discontinued for reasons unknown, but not the explanation
>>>> given to me at the time, that it was forbidden by law:
>>>>
>>>> https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/998272655995240449
>>>> https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 3:44 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> ... (free healthcare, universal basic income, etc.) have very little
>> to
>>>>> do with the Foundation's mission.
>>>> That is precisely the matter of opinion which the survey measures. The
>>>> idea that the abundance of contributors would not increase under the
>>>> proposals is clearly not shared by most, and whether that means
>>>> contributors would therefore be "empowered" by them is subjective.
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:21 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>>>>>> Happy 18th birthday to Wikipedia!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does it mean for the Wikimedia Foundation to empower
>>>>>> contributors? Please share your opinion of what the Wikimedia
>>>>>> Foundation's mission statement means when it describes empowering
>>>>>> people to collect and develop educational content:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://bit.ly/wikimission
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The survey results are summarized after form submission.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Jim Salsman
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Amir Sarabadani-2
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
On Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 19:48 James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The "agenda" is shared by a majority of the survey respondents so far.


You just disclosed results of the survey before it ends, meaning people who
fill out the survey are biased on what majority thinks and vote under peer
pressure. Scientificly speaking, It's not a blind survey anymore. Thus the
final result of this survey is unusable and worthless.

Now let's get back to the question that how someone who doesn't know much
about research methodology wastes people's time and attention...
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

Benjamin Lees
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am troubled with the ease doubt is raised about people contributing to
> this mailing list/ our community/ our projects. This is a mailing list that
> has the option of moderation. That is already in itself a sure way of
> driving people away. However, it is not the same as going whole hog and ban
> like it is proposed.
>

If your concern is about ensuring a wide range of voices, I would note that
most people we "lose" from this list are not those who are moderated out of
existence.  Rather, they unsubscribe because they are frustrated about the
tone or the behavior of other participants.  As for what Risker said, I
would not describe it as "ease."  She has politely raised this after many
years of James behaving in the same way.  This list has generally tolerated
sharply different viewpoints, and it should continue to do so, even though
it will discourage some people from participating.  But we should not have
to put up with this sort of "I didn't hear that" behavior (if you'll
forgive my using English Wikipedia jargon).

Emufarmers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Survey about the Foundation's Mission

James Salsman-2
Are those objecting to discussion of specific choices of advocacy
areas of the Foundation aware that the Movement Strategy staff have
seated an Advocacy Working Group and begun discussions with it
focusing on "public policies and agendas to define areas where active
advocacy and political engagement supports our mission and our
strategic direction"? The rationale for that Working Group leaves no
question that scope of advocacy efforts is a central topic of their
discussion:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Advocacy#Rationale

Here are the top questions staff has posed to that Working Group so far:

> What policy areas do we want to prioritize on our way to becoming the essential infrastructure for free knowledge? Where do we have to align with the broader global movement?
> What policy changes are necessary to achieve our strategic vision? What are areas where the movement has an opportunity to make change?
> What is the most effective way to promote public policy that advances our goals? What kind of legal, public policy and activist capacities do we need within movement organizations and communities, and how can we build them?

Moreover, such questions are clearly "Organizational issues of the
Wikimedia Foundation" and as such are strictly on topic according to
the wikimedia-l charter.

Using polls to settle controversial questions is so established that
it is part of literally every legislature:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Previous_question

Lane Rasberry wrote:
> We do not have community capacity to endlessly complete surveys,
> and I would like survey moderation.

The survey and all its questions are completely optional, and I can
see from the bitly statistics many more people viewed it than
submitted it; I'm sure nobody felt obligated to complete it. The
research guidelines do not appear to apply to studies of populations
including the Foundation staff and contractors, as far as I can tell,
because they only mention project contributors and readers as
subjects. And, "Most research is conducted independently, without
knowledge by or approval from the Wikimedia Foundation," per
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:FAQ#Does_my_project_need_approval

Amir Sarabadani wrote:
> You just disclosed results of the survey before it ends, meaning people who
> fill out the survey are biased on what majority thinks and vote under peer
> pressure.

There was more peer pressure in the opposite direction prior to the
disclosure. The results have always been open to anyone who submits
the form, and all the questions are optional. It was not intended to
be a scientifically accurate poll. There was a discussion of
countering self-selection bias in the Research Showcase today. The
only way to reliably counter self-selection bias is to secure
agreement to answer questions from randomly selected members of the
subject populations before they are posed to the respondents. I would
love to see such a study.

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