[Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

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[Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?

Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens

John Erling Blad
/jeblad
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Amir Sarabadani-2
Do you know about
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements ?

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 10:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
>
> Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
>
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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--
Amir (he/him)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

James Salsman-2
We are constantly fighting to keep aesthetics from interfering with
usability, for example by people using lower-contrast, more
subjectively appealing typography, such as quoting text in green on
white, or using lower contrast backgrounds of any color. Both are hard
even for people with normal vision to read in bright sunlight. A dark
mode might be a better accessibility option at present; the evidence
is inconclusive overall, but much stronger than smaller or lower
contrast text, of course.

The story of Comic Sans' accessibility to dyslexics is truly remarkable:

https://www.thecut.com/2017/03/the-reason-comic-sans-is-a-public-good.html

What makes it remarkable is that Comic Sans outperforms both of the
fonts which were specifically designed to be easier for dyslexics by
copying its surnised features in a more aesthetically appealing way,
Dyslexie and OpenDyslexic. Overriding browser default faults and using
lower contrast, smaller text for aesthetic purposes is an ableist
assault on dyslexics, and it's not hard to find plenty of them
complaining about it.

Our efforts would be better spent allowing people to switch to Comic
Sans as a preference, or trying to get people to remember to include a
shortlink to their slides and upload them before they present, for
nearsighted people not in the  row who might want to read along, and
not use fonts smaller than 1/12 the height of their slides, for that
matter.

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 2:21 PM Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Do you know about
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements ?
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 10:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> >
> > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> >
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Strainu
In reply to this post by Amir Sarabadani-2
În joi, 12 dec. 2019 la 00:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> a scris:
>
> Do you know about
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements ?

Those are all evolutions, I think the question here was about a revolution.

The main problem I see with that is that is changing all the on-wiki
templates and scripts that work with the current skin. There is also a
question of opportunity: with less and less desktop users, it just
makes more sense to invest in the mobile experience (and the beta mode
there is super cool, but still breaks some templates).

Strainu

>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 10:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> >
> > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> >
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Juergen Fenn-4


Am 12.12.19 um 02:25 Uhr schrieb Strainu:
> There is also a
> question of opportunity: with less and less desktop users, it just
> makes more sense to invest in the mobile experience


Most authors still use desktop computers for writing articles or doing
maintenance work. Mobile is for readers.

Regards,
Jürgen.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Aron Manning
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
> https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
That's nice. Try these redesigns with an adblocker for a comparison:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wikipedia:Unsolicited_redesigns#/Live_sites
https://www.wikizero.com/en/Wikipedia:Unsolicited_redesigns#Live_sites
https://en.wiki2.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Unsolicited_redesigns#Live_sites
https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/Wikipedia (redesign and fork)

Btw, switching
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering>
to *Timeless* or *Minerva* (mobile) skin gives a bit nicer experience than
the default Vector skin.
Unfortunately, it has to be changed individually on each wiki you use.

Imo Timeless should be the default, that's the closest to modern designs.
With these improvements it would be quite close to the modern
alternatives:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements

Aron


On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 22:48, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
>
> Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
>
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Stryn@Wikimedia
You can use
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-rendering
to set the same skin everywhere.

Sent from mobile

to 12. jouluk. 2019 klo 6.57 Aron Manning <[hidden email]>

> Btw, switching
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering
> >
> to *Timeless* or *Minerva* (mobile) skin gives a bit nicer experience than
> the default Vector skin.
> Unfortunately, it has to be changed individually on each wiki you use.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Aron Manning
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 07:04, Stryn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You can use
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-rendering
> to set the same skin everywhere.
>

Thank you so much! I was looking for this...

Aron
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Strainu
‫בתאריך יום ה׳, 12 בדצמ׳ 2019 ב-3:27 מאת ‪Strainu‬‏ <‪[hidden email]
‬‏>:‬

> În joi, 12 dec. 2019 la 00:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> a
> scris:
> >
> > Do you know about
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements ?
>
> Those are all evolutions, I think the question here was about a revolution.
>
> The main problem I see with that is that is changing all the on-wiki
> templates and scripts that work with the current skin.


Indeed, this is the biggest reason.

And it would be about 900 times more manageable if they weren't different
in every wiki as they are now. If any big rewrite is done in the design,
the templates and the gadgets will have to be massively updated in any
case. This design will be designed and implemented once, in core MediaWiki
or in an extension. The question is—will the templates and the gadgets have
to be updated 900 times, on every wiki, or just once.

It must become possible to store templates, modules, and gadgets in a
global wiki. Not all of them have to be global, because some are unique to
a certain wiki. But most can be shared. The work on this can start already
now, so that when a big redesign comes—and surely it will come one fine
day—most templates and gadgets will have to be only once.

A good place to agree or to disagree with this is
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates


> There is also a
> question of opportunity: with less and less desktop users, it just
> makes more sense to invest in the mobile experience (and the beta mode
> there is super cool, but still breaks some templates).


The tragic thing here is that reading is increasingly done on mobile
devices, and in some countries it's already the majority of pageviews. But
editing is mostly done on the desktop, which looks completely differently.
So editors don't even see a preview of how what they write will look for
*most* readers.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Shlomi Fish
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Hi John!

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 22:47:21 +0100
John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
>
> Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
>

I took a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and it doesn't look
anything like a geocities/etc. site from the 90s, and I feel it doesn't look
bad.

For the record that was my site at around 1998 -
https://old-1998-site.shlomifish.org/ and people complained enough that my
current site looks like "[insert  year here]" that I added a FAQ entry:

https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/site_looks_old.xhtml

See https://everybootstrap.site/ for how many contemporary sites look like.

Someone on freenode told me he thinks plain black-on-white sites look great.

Regards,

        Shlomi

> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
> _______________________________________________
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--

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
https://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/C-and-CPP/bad-elements/

As it turns out, compiling a C program from more than 20 years ago is actually
a lot easier than getting a Rails app from last year to work.
    — https://passy.svbtle.com/building-vim-from-1993-today

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Strainu
I know about the work on changing the interactions, but this is about
the design issue.
All of the skins are horribly outdated, sorry to those that made them,
but I guess they already know.
What I would really like is a new fully responsive skin, using the
concepts defined by w3, that also look modern.


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:26 AM Strainu <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> În joi, 12 dec. 2019 la 00:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> a scris:
> >
> > Do you know about
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements ?
>
> Those are all evolutions, I think the question here was about a revolution.
>
> The main problem I see with that is that is changing all the on-wiki
> templates and scripts that work with the current skin. There is also a
> question of opportunity: with less and less desktop users, it just
> makes more sense to invest in the mobile experience (and the beta mode
> there is super cool, but still breaks some templates).
>
> Strainu
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 10:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> > >
> > > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> > >
> > > John Erling Blad
> > > /jeblad
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Shlomi Fish
Thank you, but discussing how your site or any other specific site
looked like in some year is an distraction.

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 12:30 PM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi John!
>
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 22:47:21 +0100
> John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> >
> > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> >
>
> I took a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and it doesn't look
> anything like a geocities/etc. site from the 90s, and I feel it doesn't look
> bad.
>
> For the record that was my site at around 1998 -
> https://old-1998-site.shlomifish.org/ and people complained enough that my
> current site looks like "[insert  year here]" that I added a FAQ entry:
>
> https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/site_looks_old.xhtml
>
> See https://everybootstrap.site/ for how many contemporary sites look like.
>
> Someone on freenode told me he thinks plain black-on-white sites look great.
>
> Regards,
>
>         Shlomi
>
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > [hidden email] Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> --
>
> Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> https://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/C-and-CPP/bad-elements/
>
> As it turns out, compiling a C program from more than 20 years ago is actually
> a lot easier than getting a Rails app from last year to work.
>     — https://passy.svbtle.com/building-vim-from-1993-today
>
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
I wrote 1996 in the subject field because that was the year I made a
wikisite with tabbed interface, and experimented with a paper-like
design in Xt. More or less what designers today would call a material
design. The present design is what I would call Monobook 2.0, and that
imply a 15 year old design. Monobook was rolled out in 2004-2005 if I
remember correctly.

At nowiki we had a discussion with a designer from The Oslo School of
Architecture and Design around 2009, and he come up with a really nice
design. The design at SNL (the other Norwegian lexicon) starts to look
more and more like it. The design proposal was deemed to radical and
to simple for Wikipedia. He got several awards for the design.

No, I'm not a designer, but I do like good design.

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 1:34 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thank you, but discussing how your site or any other specific site
> looked like in some year is an distraction.
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 12:30 PM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John!
> >
> > On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 22:47:21 +0100
> > John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> > >
> > > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> > >
> >
> > I took a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and it doesn't look
> > anything like a geocities/etc. site from the 90s, and I feel it doesn't look
> > bad.
> >
> > For the record that was my site at around 1998 -
> > https://old-1998-site.shlomifish.org/ and people complained enough that my
> > current site looks like "[insert  year here]" that I added a FAQ entry:
> >
> > https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/site_looks_old.xhtml
> >
> > See https://everybootstrap.site/ for how many contemporary sites look like.
> >
> > Someone on freenode told me he thinks plain black-on-white sites look great.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >         Shlomi
> >
> > > John Erling Blad
> > > /jeblad
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > [hidden email] Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> > https://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/C-and-CPP/bad-elements/
> >
> > As it turns out, compiling a C program from more than 20 years ago is actually
> > a lot easier than getting a Rails app from last year to work.
> >     — https://passy.svbtle.com/building-vim-from-1993-today
> >
> > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
Seems like Marius Hauken delivered the thesis in 2012.[1]
A short video is available on YouTube.[2]
He got several awards, at most three in one week. [3]
A few of them are listed here.[4][5]

[1] Hauken, Marius Aa., and Kunst- Og Designhøgskolen I Bergen. Same
Shit, Different Wrapping (2012): Ca 200. Print.
[2] Wikipedia-concept for smartphones and tablets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xI-mPDLBo
[3] Tre designpriser på en uke
https://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/i/eagk4/tre-designpriser-paa-en-uke
[4] REDESIGNING WIKIPEDIA FOR MOBILE & TABLET
https://europeandesign.org/submissions/redesigning-wikipedia-for-mobile-tablet/
[5] Masteroppgave, redesign av Wikipedia for touchenheter ”Same shit
different wrapping”
https://www.grafill.no/visuelt/vinnere/2013/interaktiv-design/studentarbeid/masteroppgave-redesign-av-wikipedia-for-touchenheter-same-shit-different-wr

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:01 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I wrote 1996 in the subject field because that was the year I made a
> wikisite with tabbed interface, and experimented with a paper-like
> design in Xt. More or less what designers today would call a material
> design. The present design is what I would call Monobook 2.0, and that
> imply a 15 year old design. Monobook was rolled out in 2004-2005 if I
> remember correctly.
>
> At nowiki we had a discussion with a designer from The Oslo School of
> Architecture and Design around 2009, and he come up with a really nice
> design. The design at SNL (the other Norwegian lexicon) starts to look
> more and more like it. The design proposal was deemed to radical and
> to simple for Wikipedia. He got several awards for the design.
>
> No, I'm not a designer, but I do like good design.
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 1:34 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, but discussing how your site or any other specific site
> > looked like in some year is an distraction.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 12:30 PM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John!
> > >
> > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 22:47:21 +0100
> > > John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> > > >
> > > > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > > > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> > > >
> > >
> > > I took a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and it doesn't look
> > > anything like a geocities/etc. site from the 90s, and I feel it doesn't look
> > > bad.
> > >
> > > For the record that was my site at around 1998 -
> > > https://old-1998-site.shlomifish.org/ and people complained enough that my
> > > current site looks like "[insert  year here]" that I added a FAQ entry:
> > >
> > > https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/site_looks_old.xhtml
> > >
> > > See https://everybootstrap.site/ for how many contemporary sites look like.
> > >
> > > Someone on freenode told me he thinks plain black-on-white sites look great.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >         Shlomi
> > >
> > > > John Erling Blad
> > > > /jeblad
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > > [hidden email] Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> > > https://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/C-and-CPP/bad-elements/
> > >
> > > As it turns out, compiling a C program from more than 20 years ago is actually
> > > a lot easier than getting a Rails app from last year to work.
> > >     — https://passy.svbtle.com/building-vim-from-1993-today
> > >
> > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

metasj
Nice find, thanks for sharing!

Amir: yes, we need global templates -- a framework for them and incremental
way editors and tools can migrate to that.  What's the latest overview of
where that work sits?   What can we all do to help?


🌍🌏🌎🌑

On Thu., Dec. 12, 2019, 8:37 a.m. John Erling Blad, <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Seems like Marius Hauken delivered the thesis in 2012.[1]
> A short video is available on YouTube.[2]
> He got several awards, at most three in one week. [3]
> A few of them are listed here.[4][5]
>
> [1] Hauken, Marius Aa., and Kunst- Og Designhøgskolen I Bergen. Same
> Shit, Different Wrapping (2012): Ca 200. Print.
> [2] Wikipedia-concept for smartphones and tablets
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xI-mPDLBo
> [3] Tre designpriser på en uke
> https://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/i/eagk4/tre-designpriser-paa-en-uke
> [4] REDESIGNING WIKIPEDIA FOR MOBILE & TABLET
>
> https://europeandesign.org/submissions/redesigning-wikipedia-for-mobile-tablet/
> [5] Masteroppgave, redesign av Wikipedia for touchenheter ”Same shit
> different wrapping”
>
> https://www.grafill.no/visuelt/vinnere/2013/interaktiv-design/studentarbeid/masteroppgave-redesign-av-wikipedia-for-touchenheter-same-shit-different-wr
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:01 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I wrote 1996 in the subject field because that was the year I made a
> > wikisite with tabbed interface, and experimented with a paper-like
> > design in Xt. More or less what designers today would call a material
> > design. The present design is what I would call Monobook 2.0, and that
> > imply a 15 year old design. Monobook was rolled out in 2004-2005 if I
> > remember correctly.
> >
> > At nowiki we had a discussion with a designer from The Oslo School of
> > Architecture and Design around 2009, and he come up with a really nice
> > design. The design at SNL (the other Norwegian lexicon) starts to look
> > more and more like it. The design proposal was deemed to radical and
> > to simple for Wikipedia. He got several awards for the design.
> >
> > No, I'm not a designer, but I do like good design.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 1:34 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you, but discussing how your site or any other specific site
> > > looked like in some year is an distraction.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 12:30 PM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi John!
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 22:47:21 +0100
> > > > John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> > > > >
> > > > > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > > > > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I took a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and it
> doesn't look
> > > > anything like a geocities/etc. site from the 90s, and I feel it
> doesn't look
> > > > bad.
> > > >
> > > > For the record that was my site at around 1998 -
> > > > https://old-1998-site.shlomifish.org/ and people complained enough
> that my
> > > > current site looks like "[insert  year here]" that I added a FAQ
> entry:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/FAQ/site_looks_old.xhtml
> > > >
> > > > See https://everybootstrap.site/ for how many contemporary sites
> look like.
> > > >
> > > > Someone on freenode told me he thinks plain black-on-white sites
> look great.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > >         Shlomi
> > > >
> > > > > John Erling Blad
> > > > > /jeblad
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > > > [hidden email] Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> > > > https://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/C-and-CPP/bad-elements/
> > > >
> > > > As it turns out, compiling a C program from more than 20 years ago
> is actually
> > > > a lot easier than getting a Rails app from last year to work.
> > > >     — https://passy.svbtle.com/building-vim-from-1993-today
> > > >
> > > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post -
> http://shlom.in/reply .
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Amir E. Aharoni
‫בתאריך יום ה׳, 12 בדצמ׳ 2019 ב-16:54 מאת ‪Samuel Klein‬‏ <‪
[hidden email]‬‏>:‬

> Nice find, thanks for sharing!
>
> Amir: yes, we need global templates -- a framework for them and incremental
> way editors and tools can migrate to that.  What's the latest overview of
> where that work sits?   What can we all do to help?
>

Thanks :)

If you have time, read
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Proposed_specification and
feel very free to *disagree* with it. I wrote most of it, but I don't want
to own it. Poke holes in it. Challenge its assumptions. Tell me where is it
wrong, why it cannot be implemented, or what problems will it cause if it
is implemented.
If you have less time, read
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Proposed_specification,_short_version
.
Add your comments on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Discuss
.
Tell your friends from all wikis and languages about it.

No, this is obviously not the only thing that will make our sites' design
modern. But of all the blockers, this one is the most important elephant in
the room. Without addressing this problem, there will be no revolution in
our design. At least not for all wikis and all users. I can explain why,
but I don't want to hijack the thread too much.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by metasj
‫בתאריך יום ה׳, 12 בדצמ׳ 2019 ב-16:54 מאת ‪Samuel Klein‬‏ <‪
[hidden email]‬‏>:‬

> Nice find, thanks for sharing!
>
> Amir: yes, we need global templates -- a framework for them and incremental
> way editors and tools can migrate to that.  What's the latest overview of
> where that work sits?   What can we all do to help?
>

... Oh, and as for the "overview of where that work sits"—this work doesn't
exist as an official project of any kind, as the pages to which I linked
explain. It needs a commitment from a lot of community members and
Foundation teams and managers. At a recent Wikimedia Tech Conference in
Atlanta there were some very good discussions about this topic, and the
Phabricator links that appear throughout
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Proposed_specification are
the result of these discussions, but that's just a high-level plan. It's
better than what we had two months ago because it's a more modular plan
now, but it's still just a theoretical plan. What is to be done is quite
well-understood, but who will do it and when—not so much.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Pine W
I'm thinking out loud here. Are there any estimates of would be required in
terms of time (both staff time and community time) and money to make
templates and other tools be much easier to globalize across wikis and
across skins? I'm looking for an answer that is more specific than "a lot",
but isn't a promise or a detailed estimate.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Erm, I remember what websites looked like in 1996. I even made some then.
It looks nothing like that.

On the other hand, on the site you linked to? The first thing I see is an
absolutely huge photo of a robot looking at me. I have to scroll down past
that to get to the actual meat, the text content. *That* looks like 1996.

I'll take the way we have it over that, thanks very much.

Todd

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 2:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
>
> Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
>
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The wikisites looks like 1996

John Erling Blad
Try holding your cellphone vertically.

tor. 12. des. 2019, 22.38 skrev Todd Allen <[hidden email]>:

> Erm, I remember what websites looked like in 1996. I even made some then.
> It looks nothing like that.
>
> On the other hand, on the site you linked to? The first thing I see is an
> absolutely huge photo of a robot looking at me. I have to scroll down past
> that to get to the actual meat, the text content. *That* looks like 1996.
>
> I'll take the way we have it over that, thanks very much.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 2:48 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Could we please update them with a slightly more up-to-date skin?
> >
> > Take a look at our Norwegian competitor in the lexicon field.
> > https://snl.no/kunstig_intelligens
> >
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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12