[Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

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[Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
Saluton ĉiuj,

Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm
nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve
that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al
interkonsento/
<https://lasindias.blog/4-simplaj-ideoj-por-direkti-vian-komunumon-al-interkonsento#comments>
(4 simple ideas to drive your community toward consensus, I'm not aware
of an available translation) written by David de Ugarte
<https://lasindias.blog/indianopedia/david-de-ugarte> (in Spanish),
which point to Loomio <https://www.loomio.org/> as a possible tool for
just that.

Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software,
as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if
anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.

Ĝis baldaŭ

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Philippe Beaudette-4
Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Saluton ĉiuj,
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm
> nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve
> that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al
> interkonsento/ <https://lasindias.blog/4-simplaj-ideoj-por-direkti-vian-
> komunumon-al-interkonsento#comments> (4 simple ideas to drive your
> community toward consensus, I'm not aware of an available translation)
> written by David de Ugarte <https://lasindias.blog/indian
> opedia/david-de-ugarte> (in Spanish), which point to Loomio <
> https://www.loomio.org/> as a possible tool for just that.
>
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Ĝis baldaŭ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--


Philippe Beaudette

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415-275-1424
415-889-9614
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Chico Venancio
Loomio is free software as well, I guess you could host your own instance
if you find their interface preferable, though I don't think we could (or
should) achieve consensus to move decisions offwiki.

Chico Venancio

Em 7 de dez de 2017 10:17, "Philippe Beaudette" <[hidden email]>
escreveu:

Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Saluton ĉiuj,
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm
> nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve
> that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al
> interkonsento/ <https://lasindias.blog/4-simplaj-ideoj-por-direkti-vian-
> komunumon-al-interkonsento#comments> (4 simple ideas to drive your
> community toward consensus, I'm not aware of an available translation)
> written by David de Ugarte <https://lasindias.blog/indian
> opedia/david-de-ugarte> (in Spanish), which point to Loomio <
> https://www.loomio.org/> as a possible tool for just that.
>
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Ĝis baldaŭ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--


Philippe Beaudette

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Philippe Beaudette-4

Le 07/12/2017 à 14:17, Philippe Beaudette a écrit :
> Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
> but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)
>
:)

But, do you have specific extensions in mind? I didn't test loomio
actually, but it is clear that we might have benefited from more
apropriate tools for the wikimedia strategy consultation for example.
Having a person which have to sum up everything in tables might not be
the more effective way to make important information and decisional
cornerstone emerge. Even launching a "word cloud" wasn't done, as far as
I know.


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Kunal Mehta
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.

Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
Public License[1][2].

[1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
[2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html

- -- Legoktm
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Denny Vrandečić-2
Mathieu,

you wrote

> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,

I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.

Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
made me think whether I missed something fundamental.

Cheers,
Denny

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Hi,
>
> On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> Public License[1][2].
>
> [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
>
> - -- Legoktm
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

jmh649
Am with Denny on this. We are currently discussing what "consensus" means
and how to achieve it on EN WP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass
?

James

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
> > Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
> >
> > Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> > Public License[1][2].
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> > [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
> >
> > - -- Legoktm
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
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> > =GzLD
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Alex Power
In reply to this post by Denny Vrandečić-2
Consensus is easy to obtain when trying to solve easy problems, and hard to
obtain when trying to solve hard problems.  I doubt that this tool will
change that.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
> > Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
> >
> > Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> > Public License[1][2].
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> > [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
> >
> > - -- Legoktm
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
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> > 8PtQSKEA8FHMF6KJFMQ=
> > =GzLD
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Denny Vrandečić-2


Le 07/12/2017 à 18:12, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :
> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
>> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
Sorry, some emoticon was missing here to make things more clear. It's
plain irony here.
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
I completely agree with you that this is among the most hardest tasks.
More broadly, to my mind, communication and empathy are among the less
well developed topic in education relatively to their prominent
importance in all domain where humans have to pay attention.

Kind regards
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by jmh649
Thank you James for the link. The section is now archived in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass?


Le 07/12/2017 à 19:38, James Heilman a écrit :

> Am with Denny on this. We are currently discussing what "consensus" means
> and how to achieve it on EN WP.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass
> ?
>
> James
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Mathieu,
>>
>> you wrote
>>
>>> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
>> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>>
>> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
>> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
>> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Denny
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
>>>> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
>>>> software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
>>>> wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
>>> Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
>>> Public License[1][2].
>>>
>>> [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
>>> [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
>>>
>>> - -- Legoktm
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>
>>> iQJLBAEBCgA1FiEE+h6fmkHn9DUCyl1jUvyOe+23/KIFAlopcpMXHGxlZ29rdG1A
>>> bWVtYmVyLmZzZi5vcmcACgkQUvyOe+23/KK+WQ//ZyUymxC6DZVhSjvm82v9ZCkU
>>> BBR7ctq0f2Mqj+eH7CSyZdvxw6FZlA5Vw9/iu/kA5THzPnnu1YwkX45KZ8o2mbSs
>>> T0vjN81Rht62y3Ynfn/smCi4VG9+vIJUou/fW9fdh5zQcEeeLON+fPv5n5+zLBlr
>>> cGjijDqACDUFefUIs72jcBMZwISORcrNTecCYq2Zocu2E0CCEMHmMefGjkxLLNgm
>>> 1ONM8ZNwa8uHFuPp/Prl1lf9KOq16xDmFXiP0fKB8B+iLmEr3BT14ARCa1FV91AT
>>> fke2Fc5o6PQmr8cJvDraclQzTq5Rwnz76nbleujBqXe/po8ikwkh53MJGSaFcHwd
>>> +2w+w9Uku/p07o2u+mBzY2gmBHjt4fXYTog2Jvr8liBQBnn7jxPXtyyT0TMCwy2i
>>> y/LyCtbnXfSa3URSKq5OSXNGXRbqETJsEWwIscCmeRko/jQhJxv44Avu9Qm27czM
>>> Ft9Pm894Hk5muW/ZttzDWAT2VMxbxHFubJFqXDPb8x4qLElMoFaPYu92MVpeubJi
>>> KE+A98lbh5YyWUj1BCFdMIODwUE6ld7hUa9SMx7QENzp0pqDURnmshVLJXpgtFxo
>>> 9+PYklncFDTUrxhrW68AsmNYqT4WwlLmIZBBuVM6UblozAV+ROoj1Ho+44Skl4IN
>>> 8PtQSKEA8FHMF6KJFMQ=
>>> =GzLD
>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>
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>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Denny Vrandečić-2
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Sorry for having missed the irony.

Cheers,
Denny


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:39 AM mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Le 07/12/2017 à 18:12, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :
>
> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Sorry, some emoticon was missing here to make things more clear. It's
> plain irony here.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> I completely agree with you that this is among the most hardest tasks.
> More broadly, to my mind, communication and empathy are among the less well
> developed topic in education relatively to their prominent importance in
> all domain where humans have to pay attention.
>
> Kind regards
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>

The WMF has used Loomio internally in the past for bottom-up generation and
vetting of proposals. Personally I found it unimpressive - it's basically a
forum software with flat threads and voting, and some UI choices to make
the voting part stand out more. I don't think it has any advantage over the
average wiki RfC, apart from not having to know how to edit wikitext.
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