[Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

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[Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Erik Moeller-4
Hi all,

June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.

We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
keep it enabled.

MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.

== What's the user impact going to be? ==

At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
"2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].

These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.

An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.

In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
will assist in the monitoring of the situation.

User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6

We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
address format:
http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540

We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.

All best,
Erik

--
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Huib Laurens
Hello Erik,

In our case here we give away /48 IPV6 to users by default. So I'm
wondering, when a IP vandalize Wikipedia or any other project and a block
will be placed, how is this done?

Will the block just "hit" the IP or will it block a complete range to start
with?

Best,
Huib

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
> this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
> web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.
>
> We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
> Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
> we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
> keep it enabled.
>
> MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
> Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
> CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
> addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
> services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.
>
> == What's the user impact going to be? ==
>
> At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
> of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
> "2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].
>
> These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
> leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
> you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.
>
> An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
> much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
> that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
> cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.
>
> In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
> expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
> support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
> very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
> will assist in the monitoring of the situation.
>
> User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
> term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6
>
> We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
> works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
> wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
> address format:
> http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
> ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540
>
> We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.
>
> All best,
> Erik
>
> --
> Erik Möller
> VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Kind regards,

Huib Laurens
WickedWay.nl

Webhosting the wicked way.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Erik Moeller-4
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In our case here we give away /48 IPV6 to users by default. So I'm
> wondering, when a IP vandalize Wikipedia or any other project and a block
> will be placed, how is this done?
>
> Will the block just "hit" the IP or will it block a complete range to start
> with?

My understanding is that it currently doesn't apply a range by
default, so it would just hit the specific IP unless you apply a CIDR
suffix like /48 or /64. This is discussed in more detail here:

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24294
--
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Risker
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On 1 June 2012 17:12, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
> this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
> web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.
>
> We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
> Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
> we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
> keep it enabled.
>
> MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
> Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
> CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
> addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
> services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.
>
> == What's the user impact going to be? ==
>
> At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
> of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
> "2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].
>
> These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
> leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
> you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.
>
> An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
> much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
> that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
> cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.
>
> In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
> expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
> support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
> very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
> will assist in the monitoring of the situation.
>
> User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
> term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6
>
> We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
> works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
> wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
> address format:
> http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
> ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540
>
> We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.
>
> All best,
> Erik
>
>

Erik, as I am sure has been conveyed to you, some very serious concerns
have been identified with respect to this from the checkuser corps (and I
mean  the global level, not just one or two projects).  In particular, the
lack of notification, the inability to suddenly redevelop hundreds of tools
and scripts that are not IPv6-friendly, and the fact that there is
significant uncertainty as to exactly how various standard tools such as
CheckUser and Block actually will work, all mitigate against a full,
WMF-wide implementation, even for the short term.

I would very strongly urge two things:

1) Get the global notice up and running now.  Mailing lists reach less than
0.05% of regular users.

2) Consider implementation on only a small segment of projects, preferably
ones that have a small but active Checkuser/Admin team who is interested in
participating in this experiment.

Frankly, I do not believe that many of the aspects of this proposed
implementation have been considered; in particular, there are pretty
significant privacy issues that have not been discussed or addressed.  When
one is giving a Bugzilla link to illustrate that something has been
discussed, it demonstrates pretty soundly that probably no more than 40
users (out of tens of thousands) have any knowledge whatsoever about the
proposal.

Let's try to find some middle ground here, okay?

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Phil Nash-3

----- Original Message -----
From: "Risker" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6


> On 1 June 2012 17:12, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
>> this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
>> web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.
>>
>> We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
>> Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
>> we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
>> keep it enabled.
>>
>> MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
>> Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
>> CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
>> addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
>> services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.
>>
>> == What's the user impact going to be? ==
>>
>> At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
>> of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
>> "2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].
>>
>> These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
>> leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
>> you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.
>>
>> An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
>> much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
>> that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
>> cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.
>>
>> In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
>> expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
>> support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
>> very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
>> will assist in the monitoring of the situation.
>>
>> User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
>> term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6
>>
>> We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
>> works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
>> wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
>> address format:
>> http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>>
>> The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
>> ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
>> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540
>>
>> We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.
>>
>> All best,
>> Erik
>>
>>
>
> Erik, as I am sure has been conveyed to you, some very serious concerns
> have been identified with respect to this from the checkuser corps (and I
> mean  the global level, not just one or two projects).  In particular, the
> lack of notification, the inability to suddenly redevelop hundreds of
> tools
> and scripts that are not IPv6-friendly, and the fact that there is
> significant uncertainty as to exactly how various standard tools such as
> CheckUser and Block actually will work, all mitigate against a full,

The word is "militate". To mitigate is to lessen the effect of something.


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Risker
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On 1 June 2012 17:12, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
> this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
> web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.
>
> We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
> Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
> we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
> keep it enabled.
>
> MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
> Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
> CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
> addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
> services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.
>
> == What's the user impact going to be? ==
>
> At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
> of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
> "2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].
>
> These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
> leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
> you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.
>
> An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
> much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
> that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
> cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.
>
> In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
> expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
> support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
> very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
> will assist in the monitoring of the situation.
>
> User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
> term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6
>
> We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
> works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
> wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
> address format:
> http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
> ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540
>
> We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.
>
> All best,
> Erik
>
>
Erik, what time is this scheduled to go live?  And on which projects?
Please be specific here.

I am gravely concerned about the privacy issues that are attached to IPv6
IP addresses, as they are in many cases almost personally identifying
information, something that is not permitted to be released under our
privacy policy.  Have arrangements been made to hash these IP addresses to
prevent them from being publicly available?

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

John Du Hart
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 June 2012 17:12, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> June 6, 2012 is IPv6 Day ( http://www.worldipv6day.org/ ). The goal of
>> this global event is to move more ISPs, equipment manufacturers and
>> web services to permanent adoption of IPv6.
>>
>> We're planning to do limited production testing of IPv6 during the
>> Berlin Hackathon 2012 (June 2-3). Provided that the number of issues
>> we encounter are manageable, we may fully enable IPv6 on IPv6 day, and
>> keep it enabled.
>>
>> MediaWiki has been used with IPv6 by third party wikis for some time.
>> Wikimedia uses a set of additional features (GlobalBlocking,
>> CheckUser, etc.) which weren't fully IPv6-ready until recently. In
>> addition, we're working to ensure that all of Wikimedia's various
>> services (mailing lists, blogs, etc.) are IPv6-ready.
>>
>> == What's the user impact going to be? ==
>>
>> At least in the June 2-3, 2012 time window, you may see a small number
>> of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form
>> "2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334". See [[w:IPv6 address]].
>>
>> These addresses should behave as any other IP adress would: You can
>> leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions;
>> you can block them. CIDR notation is supported for rangeblocks.
>>
>> An important note about blocking: A single user may have access to a
>> much larger number of addresses than in the IPv4 model. This means
>> that range blocks (e.g. address with "/64") have to be applied in more
>> cases to prevent abuse by more sophisticated users.
>>
>> In the mid term, user scripts and tools that use simple regular
>> expressions to match IPv4 addresses will need to be adapted for IPv6
>> support to behave correctly. We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be
>> very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we
>> will assist in the monitoring of the situation.
>>
>> User:Jasper Deng is maintaining a comprehensive analysis of the long
>> term implications of the IPv6 migration here:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jasper_Deng/IPv6
>>
>> We've set up a test wiki where you can see IPv6 IP addresses. This
>> works by assigning you a fake IPv6 address the moment you visit the
>> wiki, and allows you to see the behavior of various tools with the new
>> address format:
>> http://ipv6test.wmflabs.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>>
>> The best way to report issues is to register them in Bugzilla and to
>> ensure that they are marked as blockers for the IPv6 tracking bug:
>> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35540
>>
>> We'll post updates to wikitech-l and elsewhere as appropriate.
>>
>> All best,
>> Erik
>>
>>
> Erik, what time is this scheduled to go live?  And on which projects?
> Please be specific here.
>
> I am gravely concerned about the privacy issues that are attached to IPv6
> IP addresses, as they are in many cases almost personally identifying
> information, something that is not permitted to be released under our
> privacy policy.  Have arrangements been made to hash these IP addresses to
> prevent them from being publicly available?
>
> Risker/Anne
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

What personal information do you think is contained in an IPv6 address?

--
John

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Risker
On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first message
in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
now that this was in the works?


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Risker
Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users, including
many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
technical change, it's a cultural one.

I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making changes
that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know that
sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't a
minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was longterm,
active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots of
outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and opportunities to
test things out.

I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed well
on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's meta
userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.

Risker




[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap

On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
> months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first message
> in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
> be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
> effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
> now that this was in the works?
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

John Doe-27
Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and ipv6
the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I also
remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.

On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:

> Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
> discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users, including
> many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
> technical change, it's a cultural one.
>
> I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making changes
> that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know that
> sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't a
> minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was longterm,
> active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots of
> outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and opportunities to
> test things out.
>
> I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed well
> on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
> community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's meta
> userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
>
> Risker
>
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
>
> On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
> > months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first message
> > in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
> > be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
> > effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
> > now that this was in the works?
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Risker
I've got about 18 months worth of Wikitech-L in my archives, and there are
two threads that talk about IPv6; one from March, that didn't provide a lot
of information, and this one. There may be others, but they're not popping
up on my search.

Forgive me for failing to read this week's signpost from cover to cover
yet; it refers to the previous coverage from June 2011, and quotes Erik
Moeller from some unknown and unspecified source.  I don't know where he
told "the community" that. Do you?

Risker

On 1 June 2012 20:10, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
> posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and ipv6
> the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I also
> remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.
>
> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>
> > Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
> > discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users, including
> > many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
> > technical change, it's a cultural one.
> >
> > I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making
> changes
> > that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know
> that
> > sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't a
> > minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was
> longterm,
> > active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots of
> > outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and opportunities
> to
> > test things out.
> >
> > I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed well
> > on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
> > community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's meta
> > userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
> >
> > On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
> > > months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first message
> > > in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
> > > be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
> > > effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
> > > now that this was in the works?
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

John Doe-27
Multiple sign posts January 17 this year. There was also a May 2011
foundation announcement along with countless other notes

On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:

> I've got about 18 months worth of Wikitech-L in my archives, and there are
> two threads that talk about IPv6; one from March, that didn't provide a lot
> of information, and this one. There may be others, but they're not popping
> up on my search.
>
> Forgive me for failing to read this week's signpost from cover to cover
> yet; it refers to the previous coverage from June 2011, and quotes Erik
> Moeller from some unknown and unspecified source.  I don't know where he
> told "the community" that. Do you?
>
> Risker
>
> On 1 June 2012 20:10, John <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
> > posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and
> ipv6
> > the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I also
> > remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.
> >
> > On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
> >
> > > Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
> > > discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users,
> including
> > > many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
> > > technical change, it's a cultural one.
> > >
> > > I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making
> > changes
> > > that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know
> > that
> > > sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't
> a
> > > minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was
> > longterm,
> > > active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots
> of
> > > outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and
> opportunities
> > to
> > > test things out.
> > >
> > > I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed
> well
> > > on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
> > > community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's
> meta
> > > userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
> > >
> > > Risker
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
> > >
> > > On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard <[hidden email] <javascript:;><javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email] <javascript:;><javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
> > > > months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first
> message
> > > > in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
> > > > be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
> > > > effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
> > > > now that this was in the works?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - d.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email] <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email] <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

George William Herbert
I've been a little busy this spring, but I am interested in the IPv6
transition (at work, too) and missed this here as well.

I don't object as Anne is here, but I'm not doing the work she's doing
on project either.


-george

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:35 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Multiple sign posts January 17 this year. There was also a May 2011
> foundation announcement along with countless other notes
>
> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>
>> I've got about 18 months worth of Wikitech-L in my archives, and there are
>> two threads that talk about IPv6; one from March, that didn't provide a lot
>> of information, and this one. There may be others, but they're not popping
>> up on my search.
>>
>> Forgive me for failing to read this week's signpost from cover to cover
>> yet; it refers to the previous coverage from June 2011, and quotes Erik
>> Moeller from some unknown and unspecified source.  I don't know where he
>> told "the community" that. Do you?
>>
>> Risker
>>
>> On 1 June 2012 20:10, John <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
>> > posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and
>> ipv6
>> > the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I also
>> > remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.
>> >
>> > On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>> >
>> > > Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
>> > > discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users,
>> including
>> > > many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
>> > > technical change, it's a cultural one.
>> > >
>> > > I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making
>> > changes
>> > > that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know
>> > that
>> > > sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't
>> a
>> > > minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was
>> > longterm,
>> > > active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots
>> of
>> > > outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and
>> opportunities
>> > to
>> > > test things out.
>> > >
>> > > I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed
>> well
>> > > on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
>> > > community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's
>> meta
>> > > userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
>> > >
>> > > Risker
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
>> > >
>> > > On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard <[hidden email] <javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker <[hidden email] <javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>> > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
>> > > > months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first
>> message
>> > > > in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
>> > > > be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
>> > > > effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
>> > > > now that this was in the works?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > - d.
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > > > [hidden email] <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > > [hidden email] <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l



--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Hersfold Wikipedia
Sorry if I'm veering off on a tangent or repeating things here, I only
just got added to this list a short while ago but was asked to convey my
concerns here.

While this has been discussed for some time, it seems as though the
announcement that this is getting turned on was only made just recently;
the coverage on January 16th John refers to doesn't seem to mention when
this was going to be deployed, and I don't recall any mention on-wiki of
IPv6 since then. For such a potentially major change, five day's notice
is simply not enough for the entire community to digest. As it is, I
still don't see any mention of this change on en.wiki's Technical or
Miscellaneous Village Pump, nor either Administrator's Noticeboard, the
common announcement locations for such changes.

My second, and more pressing concern, is how well this will work.
Speaking quite frankly, the development team has a bit of a bad habit of
deploying something on Labs or the test wiki or whatever, deciding it
works, and then deploying it straight to Wikipedia and the other public
WMF sites. Unfortunately when they do so, hell breaks loose because all
sorts of problems crop up - bugs that didn't crop up because the test
wiki receives far less traffic than Wikipedia, issues with the interface
that weren't addressed now cause problems because the users of Wikipedia
don't use the test wiki, and it takes weeks for the issues to get fixed
and/or for the community to adjust to the changes. Considering the
traffic Wikipedia receives (it's the 5th most popular website in the
world, after all), it seems remarkably inappropriate to treat it as a
beta testing ground.

I'm very concerned that this is what's going to happen with the IPv6
change - something major is going to fail, and the wiki will become
inaccessible, or some major security feature (blocking or protection,
for example) will be rendered inoperable, leaving the wikis vulnerable
to attack from all fronts. The latter situation seems to be more likely
based on past issues, and unfortunately more problematic; once these
issues get noted, it'll take only minutes for /b/, GNAA, and a long list
of other vandals to figure it out and launch a full-scale attack that'll
take weeks to clean up.

Can we receive some sort of assurance from the development team that the
IPv6 system has been fully stress-tested, at a level comparable to what
Wikipedia and the other wikis may face, and that all extensions used by
the wikis were part of this test? If such an assurance cannot be made
before June 6th, can the deployment of this update be delayed until that
testing can be completed? For such a major website, I feel that
consistent operation is more important than adhering to the latest
standards.

----
User:Hersfold
[hidden email]


On 6/1/2012 9:17 PM, George Herbert wrote:

> I've been a little busy this spring, but I am interested in the IPv6
> transition (at work, too) and missed this here as well.
>
> I don't object as Anne is here, but I'm not doing the work she's doing
> on project either.
>
>
> -george
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:35 PM, John<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Multiple sign posts January 17 this year. There was also a May 2011
>> foundation announcement along with countless other notes
>>
>> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>>
>>> I've got about 18 months worth of Wikitech-L in my archives, and there are
>>> two threads that talk about IPv6; one from March, that didn't provide a lot
>>> of information, and this one. There may be others, but they're not popping
>>> up on my search.
>>>
>>> Forgive me for failing to read this week's signpost from cover to cover
>>> yet; it refers to the previous coverage from June 2011, and quotes Erik
>>> Moeller from some unknown and unspecified source.  I don't know where he
>>> told "the community" that. Do you?
>>>
>>> Risker
>>>
>>> On 1 June 2012 20:10, John<[hidden email]<javascript:;>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
>>>> posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and
>>> ipv6
>>>> the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I also
>>>> remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not even
>>>>> discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users,
>>> including
>>>>> many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
>>>>> technical change, it's a cultural one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making
>>>> changes
>>>>> that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know
>>>> that
>>>>> sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't
>>> a
>>>>> minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was
>>>> longterm,
>>>>> active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots
>>> of
>>>>> outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and
>>> opportunities
>>>> to
>>>>> test things out.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed
>>> well
>>>>> on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
>>>>> community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's
>>> meta
>>>>> userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
>>>>>
>>>>> Risker
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1 June 2012 19:35, David Gerard<[hidden email]<javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2 June 2012 00:08, Risker<[hidden email]<javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
>>>>>> months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first
>>> message
>>>>>> in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
>>>>>> be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
>>>>>> effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
>>>>>> now that this was in the works?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - d.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]<javascript:;>  <javascript:;>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]<javascript:;>  <javascript:;>
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]<javascript:;>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]<javascript:;>
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
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>
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Tilman Bayer
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Hersfold <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry if I'm veering off on a tangent or repeating things here, I only just
> got added to this list a short while ago but was asked to convey my concerns
> here.
>
> While this has been discussed for some time, it seems as though the
> announcement that this is getting turned on was only made just recently; the
> coverage on January 16th John refers to doesn't seem to mention when this
> was going to be deployed, and I don't recall any mention on-wiki of IPv6
> since then. For such a potentially major change, five day's notice is simply
> not enough for the entire community to digest. As it is, I still don't see
> any mention of this change on en.wiki's Technical or Miscellaneous Village
> Pump, nor either Administrator's Noticeboard, the common announcement
> locations for such changes.
Just to be precise, a notice had actually been posted (by Jasper Deng)
on the English Wikipedia's Administrator's Noticeboard way before your
email (on 22:14, 1 June 2012 UTC). A different one was posted (using
Global Message Delivery) to the village pumps of about 600 other
Wikimedia projects. At
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IPv6_initiative/2012_IPv6_Day_announcement
, Erik's above announcement has already been translated into several
languages.

>
> My second, and more pressing concern, is how well this will work. Speaking
> quite frankly, the development team has a bit of a bad habit of deploying
> something on Labs or the test wiki or whatever, deciding it works, and then
> deploying it straight to Wikipedia and the other public WMF sites.
> Unfortunately when they do so, hell breaks loose because all sorts of
> problems crop up - bugs that didn't crop up because the test wiki receives
> far less traffic than Wikipedia, issues with the interface that weren't
> addressed now cause problems because the users of Wikipedia don't use the
> test wiki, and it takes weeks for the issues to get fixed and/or for the
> community to adjust to the changes. Considering the traffic Wikipedia
> receives (it's the 5th most popular website in the world, after all), it
> seems remarkably inappropriate to treat it as a beta testing ground.
>
> I'm very concerned that this is what's going to happen with the IPv6 change
> - something major is going to fail, and the wiki will become inaccessible,
> or some major security feature (blocking or protection, for example) will be
> rendered inoperable, leaving the wikis vulnerable to attack from all fronts.
> The latter situation seems to be more likely based on past issues, and
> unfortunately more problematic; once these issues get noted, it'll take only
> minutes for /b/, GNAA, and a long list of other vandals to figure it out and
> launch a full-scale attack that'll take weeks to clean up.
>
> Can we receive some sort of assurance from the development team that the
> IPv6 system has been fully stress-tested, at a level comparable to what
> Wikipedia and the other wikis may face, and that all extensions used by the
> wikis were part of this test? If such an assurance cannot be made before
> June 6th, can the deployment of this update be delayed until that testing
> can be completed? For such a major website, I feel that consistent operation
> is more important than adhering to the latest standards.
>
> ----
> User:Hersfold
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> On 6/1/2012 9:17 PM, George Herbert wrote:
>>
>> I've been a little busy this spring, but I am interested in the IPv6
>> transition (at work, too) and missed this here as well.
>>
>> I don't object as Anne is here, but I'm not doing the work she's doing
>> on project either.
>>
>>
>> -george
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:35 PM, John<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Multiple sign posts January 17 this year. There was also a May 2011
>>> foundation announcement along with countless other notes
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've got about 18 months worth of Wikitech-L in my archives, and there
>>>> are
>>>> two threads that talk about IPv6; one from March, that didn't provide a
>>>> lot
>>>> of information, and this one. There may be others, but they're not
>>>> popping
>>>> up on my search.
>>>>
>>>> Forgive me for failing to read this week's signpost from cover to cover
>>>> yet; it refers to the previous coverage from June 2011, and quotes Erik
>>>> Moeller from some unknown and unspecified source.  I don't know where he
>>>> told "the community" that. Do you?
>>>>
>>>> Risker
>>>>
>>>> On 1 June 2012 20:10, John<[hidden email]<javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow Risker, you obviously don't read any mailing lists/ blogs or sign
>>>>> posts. I just did a quick search of my email records for wiki tech and
>>>>
>>>> ipv6
>>>>>
>>>>> the first result that I see is from July 2007. Almost 5 years ago, I
>>>>> also
>>>>> remember a big push last year about this same time for ipv6.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, June 1, 2012, Risker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, a long time. Discussed on Mediawiki and bugzilla; it's not
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> discussed on Wikitech-L.  Neither of which 99.99999% of users,
>>>>
>>>> including
>>>>>>
>>>>>> many volunteer developers, have time to follow.  This is not just a
>>>>>> technical change, it's a cultural one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've long stood up for the Engineering Department when it is making
>>>>>
>>>>> changes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that have only minor effects on the public face of the project; I know
>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sometimes users can be hyperactive about minor points.  But this isn't
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> minor point.  I'd compare it to Vector - something that there was
>>>>>
>>>>> longterm,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> active communication about throughout its development cycle, with lots
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> outreach to volunteer developers and to the community, and
>>>>
>>>> opportunities
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> test things out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't stand up for them this time, though. It's not even discussed
>>>>
>>>> well
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on Mediawiki, and is mostly in passing on the Roadmap.[1]  And the few
>>>>>> community-based questions that have come up, specifically on Erik's
>>>>
>>>> meta
>>>>>>
>>>>>> userpage, have not been given the courtesy of a reply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Risker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1 June 2012 19:35, David
>>>>>> Gerard<[hidden email]<javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2 June 2012 00:08,
>>>>>>> Risker<[hidden email]<javascript:;><javascript:;>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fully enabling IPv6 has been coming a *long* time - over a year, with
>>>>>>> months of planning and work before even that - as Erik's first
>>>>
>>>> message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in this thread notes, and it was hardly a secret. Your objections may
>>>>>>> be entirely too late - it is vanishingly unlikely that two years'
>>>>>>> effort will suddenly be thrown away. Were you literally unaware until
>>>>>>> now that this was in the works?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - d.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
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Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by John Du Hart
John Du Hart wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Erik, what time is this scheduled to go live?  And on which projects?
>> Please be specific here.
>>
>> I am gravely concerned about the privacy issues that are attached to IPv6
>> IP addresses, as they are in many cases almost personally identifying
>> information, something that is not permitted to be released under our
>> privacy policy.  Have arrangements been made to hash these IP addresses to
>> prevent them from being publicly available?
>
> What personal information do you think is contained in an IPv6 address?

I wondered what Risker was referring to as well, so I looked up IPv6 +
privacy: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#Privacy>.

After reading that section, it's still unclear to me whether IPv6 is
significantly more privacy invasive than IPv4.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by Hersfold Wikipedia
On 02/06/12 05:04, Hersfold wrote:
> I'm very concerned that this is what's going to happen with the IPv6
> change - something major is going to fail, and the wiki will become
> inaccessible, or some major security feature (blocking or protection,
> for example) will be rendered inoperable, leaving the wikis vulnerable
> to attack from all fronts. The latter situation seems to be more
> likely based on past issues, and unfortunately more problematic; once
> these issues get noted, it'll take only minutes for /b/, GNAA, and a
> long list of other vandals to figure it out and launch a full-scale
> attack that'll take weeks to clean up.

We could just allow blocking of arbitrarily large IPv6 ranges. Then if
there is some emergency, you can just block everyone who is using IPv6
from editing. The collateral damage would be smaller than the IPv4 /16
blocks which admins apply routinely.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Risker
Hi Risker et al,

a few important points:
* IPv6 adoption is still below 1% globally [1].
* It's likely that we'll encounter network-level issues well before we
hit application-level issues during limited production testing.
* In the event that we manage to resolve all issues, it's likely that
we'll only see very limited use/abuse of IPv6 addresses and that we'll
have plenty of time to adjust procedures and documentation.
* We can abort this fairly easily, or as Tim suggests, employ global
blocks of IPv6 addresses to manage abuse.

As noted, the plan is to engage in limited production testing this
weekend, with possible full deployment by IPv6 Day (Wednesday). I
should also note that the degree to which all the complex network and
software interactions of a deployment like this can be tested without
actually changing or affecting production operations is limited. We're
going to be debugging issues in real-time.

I appreciate that this is very short notice for lots of people and
apologize for that; thanks to Tilman for helping with the global
notice dissemination. There's pretty good likelihood that aside from
maybe some brief service interruptions, the user impact is going to be
close to nil, either due to an abort early on, or due to very limited
IPv6 usage.

Moving towards full IPv6 support is part of our responsibility as a
good Internet citizen, and this has been in the works for a long time.
It's never been an option not to do this as IPv4 addresses are being
exhausted.

Regarding privacy, both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses can be dangerously
revealing in terms of personal identity (e.g. some ISPs even tie
street address information to your IPv4 address). It's always been
fundamentally problematic that MediaWiki reveals this information
nakedly, and it's what enabled past large-scale investigations like
WikiScanner, for good and for ill. In the mid to long term, I believe
we need to investigate moving away from full disclosure of IP
addresses when editing without logging in, but this is independent of
IPv4/IPv6.

All best,
Erik

[1] https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics/

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Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by John Du Hart
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:27 PM, John Du Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What personal information do you think is contained in an IPv6 address?

Don't they sometimes contain MAC address information?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on IPv6

Thomas Dalton
On 2 June 2012 13:44, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:27 PM, John Du Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> What personal information do you think is contained in an IPv6 address?
>
> Don't they sometimes contain MAC address information?

I don't know, but I wouldn't consider my MAC address to be personal
information... you might be able to work out what brand of computer
I'm using, but I can live with that.

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