[Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

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[Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
It is sad to see that two well established Wikipedians, Barbara (WVS)
and SMcCandlish have misused Wikipedia Signpost to publish a "humour"
article which derides the use of nonbinary pronouns. It will be clear
for any reader that not only is this a joke in bad taste, but the
article is a misuse of the Wikipedia project and brand, to deride and
marginalise transgender, genderqueer and nonbinary people. A deletion
discussion has been created, everyone is welcome to express their
opinions, should they wish to read the Signpost op-ed.[1][4][5]

As part of the Wikipedia Visiting Scholars program, Barbara Page has
been granted special status at the University of Pittsburgh, and in
this capacity is seen to represent Wikimedia and Wikipedia, even if
not in a paid capacity. Given their coauthorship of the defamatory
essay, I do not see how it would be ethical for Page to retain any
recognition or relationship, and ask that a representative of Wiki
Education provide an official response.[2][6]

Stanton McCandlish is named as a WMF Tech Ambassador, and I have
requested on Meta that this formal recognition is immediately removed
by the WMF, as their views are directly antithetical to the WMF
supported Technical Spaces Code of Conduct.[3]

Links:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
2. https://wikiedu.org/blog/2015/09/25/upitt-visiting-scholars/
3. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tech/Ambassadors#Stanton_McCandlish
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Barbara_(WVS)
5. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:SMcCandlish
6. https://wikiedu.org/contact-us/

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
choice to publish it on Wikipedia.

I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.

The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
:-)

My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
group.

Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.

I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
compliance with the Code of Conduct.

I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
Wikimedia projects.

Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
the coauthors.

Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
without action today.[3] At the time of writing this email, there are
claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
it is unclear who is doing this.[4]

The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.

Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.

Thanks,I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and
more generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possibly
implication given in my previous email to this list, that authors of
the problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
choice to publish it on Wikipedia.

I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.

My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
group.

Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
deletion discussion continues, an action that in my opinion resolves
the immediate issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.

I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
compliance with the Code of Conduct.

I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
Wikimedia projects.

Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
the coauthors.

SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from view, and
continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to raised an ANI
request against me for "canvassing and incivility/aspersions in
gender-related disputes", which was closed without action today.[3] At
the time of writing this email, there are claims by SMcCandlish that
they are "accused of being a transphobe", it is unclear who is doing
this.[4]

The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
concerned people that are unknown to me. The immediate personal
response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.

Thank you to those sending private messages of encouragement, support
and information. :-D

Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the future, this
experience has taught me to run for cover, rather than putting my head
above the parapet. Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the
stress, or having to read targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes",
published on the project you love and support. Throughout our
Wikimedia projects, I am certain that the majority of our contributors
agree, there remains huge room for improvement in how best to ensure
correct, friendly and respectful treatment of minority groups, rather
than doing the minimum possible.

Links
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 at 16:39, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:either

>
> It is sad to see that two well established Wikipedians, Barbara (WVS)
> and SMcCandlish have misused Wikipedia Signpost to publish a "humour"
> article which derides the use of nonbinary pronouns. It will be clear
> for any reader that not only is this a joke in bad taste, but the
> article is a misuse of the Wikipedia project and brand, to deride and
> marginalise transgender, genderqueer and nonbinary people. A deletion
> discussion has been created, everyone is welcome to express theithereir
> opinions, should they wish to read the Signpost op-ed.[1][4][5]
>
> As part of the Wikipedia Visiting Scholars program, Barbara Page has
> been granted special status at the University of Pittsburgh, and in
> this capacity is seen to represent Wikimedia and Wikipedia, even if
> not in a paid capacity. Given their coauthorship of the defamatory
> essay, I do not see how it would be ethical for Page to retain any
> recognition or relationship, and ask that a representative of Wiki
> Education provide an official response.[2][6]
>
> Stanton McCandlish is named as a WMF Tech Ambassador, and I have
> requested on Meta that this formal recognition is immediately removed
> by the WMF, as their views are directly antithetical to the WMF
> supported Technical Spaces Code of Conduct.[3]

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:FaeFae

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28

[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 at 16:39, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:either

>
> It is sad to see that two well established Wikipedians, Barbara (WVS)
> and SMcCandlish have misused Wikipedia Signpost to publish a "humour"
> article which derides the use of nonbinary pronouns. It will be clear
> for any reader that not only is this a joke in bad taste, but the
> article is a misuse of the Wikipedia project and brand, to deride and
> marginalise transgender, genderqueer and nonbinary people. A deletion
> discussion has been created, everyone is welcome to express theithereir
> opinions, should they wish to read the Signpost op-ed.[1][4][5]
>
> As part of the Wikipedia Visiting Scholars program, Barbara Page has
> been granted special status at the University of Pittsburgh, and in
> this capacity is seen to represent Wikimedia and Wikipedia, even if
> not in a paid capacity. Given their coauthorship of the defamatory
> essay, I do not see how it would be ethical for Page to retain any
> recognition or relationship, and ask that a representative of Wiki
> Education provide an official response.[2][6]
>
> Stanton McCandlish is named as a WMF Tech Ambassador, and I have
> requested on Meta that this formal recognition is immediately removed
> by the WMF, as their views are directly antithetical to the WMF
> supported Technical Spaces Code of Conduct.[3]
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
In reply to this post by Fæ
As the last post had a format error, I am reposting the body of the
email again to avoid confusion!

****

I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
choice to publish it on Wikipedia.

I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.

The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
:-)

My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
group.

Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.

I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
compliance with the Code of Conduct.

I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
Wikimedia projects.

Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
the coauthors.

Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
without action today.[3] At the time of writing this email, there are
claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
it is unclear who is doing this.[4]

The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.

Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.

Thanks,I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and
more generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possibly
implication given in my previous email to this list, that authors of
the problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
choice to publish it on Wikipedia.

I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.

My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
group.

Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
deletion discussion continues, an action that in my opinion resolves
the immediate issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.

I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
compliance with the Code of Conduct.

I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
Wikimedia projects.

Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
the coauthors.

SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from view, and
continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to raised an ANI
request against me for "canvassing and incivility/aspersions in
gender-related disputes", which was closed without action today.[3] At
the time of writing this email, there are claims by SMcCandlish that
they are "accused of being a transphobe", it is unclear who is doing
this.[4]

The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
concerned people that are unknown to me. The immediate personal
response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.

Thank you to those sending private messages of encouragement, support
and information. :-D

Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the future, this
experience has taught me to run for cover, rather than putting my head
above the parapet. Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the
stress, or having to read targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes",
published on the project you love and support. Throughout our
Wikimedia projects, I am certain that the majority of our contributors
agree, there remains huge room for improvement in how best to ensure
correct, friendly and respectful treatment of minority groups, rather
than doing the minimum possible.

Links
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
In reply to this post by Fæ
As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
final time. How embarrassing!

****

I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
choice to publish it on Wikipedia.

I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.

The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
:-)

My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
group.Thanks,

Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.

I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
compliance with the Code of Conduct.

I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
Wikimedia projects.

Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
the coauthors.

Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there are
claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
it is unclear who is doing this.[4]

The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.

Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.

Links
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
2. https://enThanks,.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
idea.

The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.

M.



On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> final time. How embarrassing!
>
> ****
>
> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>
> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>
> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> :-)
>
> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> group.Thanks,
>
> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>
> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>
> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> Wikimedia projects.
>
> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> the coauthors.
>
> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
> are
> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>
> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>
> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>
> Links
> 0.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> 2. https://enThanks,.
> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> 3.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> 4.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> 5.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Peter Southwood
"When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
idea.

The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.

M.



On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> final time. How embarrassing!
>
> ****
>
> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>
> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>
> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> :-)
>
> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> group.Thanks,
>
> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>
> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>
> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> Wikimedia projects.
>
> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> the coauthors.
>
> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
> are
> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>
> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>
> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>
> Links
> 0.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> 2. https://enThanks,.
> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> 3.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> 4.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> 5.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
Hi Peter,

Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).

Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.

Good afternoon,

Nattes à chat

(1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html





> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
> idea.
>
> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>
> M.
>
>
>
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>> final time. How embarrassing!
>>
>> ****
>>
>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>>
>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>>
>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>> :-)
>>
>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>> group.Thanks,
>>
>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>>
>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>>
>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
>> Wikimedia projects.
>>
>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>> the coauthors.
>>
>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
>> are
>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
>> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>>
>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>>
>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>>
>> Links
>> 0.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
>> 1.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
>> 2. https://enThanks,.
>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>> 3.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
>> 4.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
>> 5.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Delphine Dallison
Hi Natacha,

I want to thank you for this response, which greatly reflects my own feelings on this incident. As an individual who identifies as genderqueer, I was greatly saddened by the humour column posted in The Signpost as I felt a) it failed to actually be humorous and b) it reflected poorly on the Wikimedia community who I consider on the whole a very open-minded, respectful and accepting community when it comes to issues of gender and trans rights. As a trainer, I often refer to the Q&A on talk pages of articles such as Chelsea Manning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chelsea_Manning) to illustrate the way in which the wiki community reach consensus and operate with respect in situations where notable individuals self-declare changes in the gender and pronouns by which they wish to be identified. I believe that that should be the message that we should be publicizing rather than some tired jokes at the expense of a minority group.
I would also like to second your thanks to both Barbara and Fae, who I agree both demonstrated good faith by in turn apologizing for any offense caused and for speaking out when the situation required it.

Best wishes,

Delphine Dallison
Wikimedian in Residence
Scottish Library and Information Council
Turnberry House
Suite 5:5, Fifth Floor
175 West George Street
Glasgow G2 2LB
Tel: 0141 202 2999
www.scottishlibraries.org


Enriching lives through libraries


-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: 05 March 2019 14:12
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Hi Peter,

Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).

Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.

Good afternoon,

Nattes à chat

(1) https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2019%2F02%2F12%2Fworld%2Feurope%2Fla-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dallison%40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdata=l1ixYJtHyqRs11zHsD7Ic9Y2NFb2cq%2FdFlUusnLNBVI%3D&amp;reserved=0





> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a
> good idea.
>
> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as
> some sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>
> M.
>
>
>
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for
>> a final time. How embarrassing!
>>
>> ****
>>
>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>>
>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>>
>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>> :-)
>>
>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to
>> criticise the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made
>> jokes about pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a
>> bad joke that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem
>> of how the article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>> group.Thanks,
>>
>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>>
>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with
>> regard to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>>
>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki
>> Education, though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one
>> informal reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not
>> emailed anyone else with regard to the authors or their actions.
>> Explicitly, I have not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else
>> not directly part of Wikimedia projects.
>>
>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>> the coauthors.
>>
>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email,
>> there are claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a
>> transphobe", it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>>
>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting
>> the Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from
>> other concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate
>> personal response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has
>> been "I find your rejection of my email to be an empty political
>> gesture bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No
>> other Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either
>> personally or on behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or
>> proposals to change or improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>>
>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement,
>> support and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia
>> in the future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as
>> possible in the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to
>> read targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project
>> you love and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there
>> remains huge room for improvement in how best to ensure correct,
>> friendly and respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>>
>> Links
>> 0.
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
>> .wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AMiscellany_for_deletion%2FWikiped
>> ia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-02-28%2FHumour&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.da
>> llison%40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6
>> 414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdat
>> a=tu%2Fj7WpIJi3R63lMGCw6BG4RPi2YUELRg4R5jKcXrPk%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> 1.
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
>> .wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DWikipedia%253AAdministrators
>> %2527_noticeboard%252FIncidents%26type%3Drevision%26diff%3D885937612%
>> 26oldid%3D885936723&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dallison%40scottishlibraries
>> .org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7
>> adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdata=xstOAcFs%2BdC%2FZVhwedIj
>> zGDhXuZ1uNflKa6XxDaB6Lc%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> 2. https://enThanks,.
>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>> 3.
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
>> .wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DWikipedia%253AAdministrators
>> %2527_noticeboard%252FIncidents%26type%3Drevision%26diff%3D885954601%
>> 26oldid%3D885953822&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dallison%40scottishlibraries
>> .org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7
>> adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdata=%2FgOCdcNx5n03UdJk4E2euo
>> cN5OrGxA5KQ3o3meD1eMo%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> 4.
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
>> .wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DWikipedia%3AMiscellany_for_d
>> eletion%2FWikipedia%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-02-28%2FHumour%26curi
>> d%3D60098422%26diff%3D885957940%26oldid%3D885957573&amp;data=02%7C01%
>> 7Cd.dallison%40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d
>> 1e%7C6414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&am
>> p;sdata=RFfssXBw4bu%2BtSvomwcGuHL34Vw3O17p1JDEiMSHH5Y%3D&amp;reserved
>> =0
>> 5.
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
>> .wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia_talk%3AWikipedia_Signpost%2F2019-02
>> -28&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dallison%40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e
>> 22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad35a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C
>> 636873919294097051&amp;sdata=R6x4o021DG6Xz7lNcfEF%2B91DzkDyaGfi4qCIYE
>> 4EO8A%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email]
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fco
>> mmons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUser%3AFae&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dallison
>> %40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad3
>> 5a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdata=S9pn
>> toJht8iYyiw4L7Xlsh6nq3JkydSB%2BTDGKObBwKY%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> Wikimedia LGBT+
>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fme
>> ta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikimedia_LGBT&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cd.dalliso
>> n%40scottishlibraries.org%7C148b9268e22b47a8941308d6a1748d1e%7C6414ad
>> 35a3824075ab2600ed2b7adb76%7C0%7C0%7C636873919294097051&amp;sdata=2bU
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
Natasha,
I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are even worse.
As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all means.
The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Hi Peter,

Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).

Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.

Good afternoon,

Nattes à chat

(1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html





> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
> idea.
>
> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>
> M.
>
>
>
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>> final time. How embarrassing!
>>
>> ****
>>
>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>>
>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>>
>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>> :-)
>>
>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>> group.Thanks,
>>
>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>>
>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>>
>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
>> Wikimedia projects.
>>
>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>> the coauthors.
>>
>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
>> are
>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
>> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>>
>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>>
>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>>
>> Links
>> 0.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
>> 1.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
>> 2. https://enThanks,.
>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>> 3.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
>> 4.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
>> 5.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ---
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> https://www.avg.com
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
Hi Peter,

It

> Le 6 mars 2019 à 08:25, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are even worse.
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all means.
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
>
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
> I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
> This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
> Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
> To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
> If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> Nattes à chat
>
> (1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
>
>
>
>
>
>> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
>> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
>> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>>
>> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
>> idea.
>>
>> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
>> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>>
>> M.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>>> final time. How embarrassing!
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>>>
>>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>>>
>>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
>>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
>>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
>>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
>>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
>>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>>> group.Thanks,
>>>
>>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>>>
>>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
>>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>>>
>>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
>>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
>>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
>>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
>>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
>>> Wikimedia projects.
>>>
>>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>>> the coauthors.
>>>
>>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
>>> are
>>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
>>> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>>>
>>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
>>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
>>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
>>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
>>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
>>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
>>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
>>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
>>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>>>
>>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
>>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
>>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
>>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
>>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
>>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
>>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
>>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>>>
>>> Links
>>> 0.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
>>> 1.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
>>> 2. https://enThanks,.
>>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>> 3.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
>>> 4.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
>>> 5.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Fae
>>> --
>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
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>> https://www.avg.com
>>
>>
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>> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
worth.

Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.

Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
open knowledge agenda.

Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
side do you wanna be on?"

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
2. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12115577

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are even worse.
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all means.
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
>
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
> I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
> This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
> Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
> To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
> If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> Nattes à chat
>
> (1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >
> > "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> > Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> > Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> >
> > I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
> > idea.
> >
> > The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
> > sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
> >
> > M.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> >> final time. How embarrassing!
> >>
> >> ****
> >>
> >> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> >> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> >> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> >> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> >> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> >> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> >> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> >> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> >> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> >> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> >> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> >> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> >> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> >> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> >> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
> >>
> >> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> >> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> >> :-)
> >>
> >> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> >> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> >> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> >> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> >> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> >> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> >> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> >> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> >> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> >> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> >> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> >> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> >> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> >> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> >> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> >> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> >> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> >> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> >> group.Thanks,
> >>
> >> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> >> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> >> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
> >>
> >> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> >> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> >> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> >> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
> >>
> >> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> >> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> >> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> >> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> >> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> >> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> >> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> >> Wikimedia projects.
> >>
> >> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> >> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> >> the coauthors.
> >>
> >> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> >> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> >> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> >> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> >> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
> >> are
> >> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> >> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
> >>
> >> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> >> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> >> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> >> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> >> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> >> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> >> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> >> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> >> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> >> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> >> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> >> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
> >>
> >> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> >> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> >> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> >> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> >> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> >> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> >> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> >> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> >> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 0.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> >> 1.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> >> 2. https://enThanks,.
> >> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> >> 3.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> >> 4.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> >> 5.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Pierre-Selim
If humour offend people then the problem is not with people feeling
offended.

Humour is often based on common understanding and common background between
the person making a joke.
I can joke with really good friend making irony and derision about things
that are in my values, they know it and will get the irony.
I should not do that to a wider audience (they won't get it, and I have lot
of chances to offend people).

We may err sometimes and still offend people by making something we think
is humour, when told I see no other good path than presenting excuses.

I'm seriously disappointed to see such piece published in the Wikipedia
SignPost.

Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 09:53, Fæ <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
> they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
> That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
> complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
> that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
> minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
> group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
> worth.
>
> Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
> long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
> callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
> intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
> fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
> minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
> for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
> trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
> correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
> we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.
>
> Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
> especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
> stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
> website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
> disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
> purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
> open knowledge agenda.
>
> Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
> side do you wanna be on?"
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
> 2.
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12115577
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Natasha,
> > I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this
> humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion
> that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves.
> Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender
> identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that
> that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining
> a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to
> push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not
> used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but
> that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and
> they are even worse.
> > As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by
> all means.
> > The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes",
> and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to
> assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true
> because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is
> irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because
> they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not
> feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+
> "humour"
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some
> people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence
> the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about
> jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be
> used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an
> overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after
> being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express
> opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such
> jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> > Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol
> affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
> >
> > Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they
> systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people,
> minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same
> group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are
> disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to
> problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express
> freely what they feel about these jokes.
> > I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
> > This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the
> remarkable work done by people like you.
> > Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are
> needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and
> maybe not in humour tone.
> > To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for
> showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this
> is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for
> speaking out.
> > If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact
> the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have
> gained in freedom of speech.
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> > (1)
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
> a écrit :
> > >
> > > "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> > > Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> > > Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+
> "humour"
> > >
> > > I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a
> good
> > > idea.
> > >
> > > The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as
> some
> > > sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
> > >
> > > M.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> > >> final time. How embarrassing!
> > >>
> > >> ****
> > >>
> > >> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> > >> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> > >> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> > >> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> > >> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> > >> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> > >> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> > >> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> > >> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> > >> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
> > >>
> > >> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> > >> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> > >> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> > >> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> > >> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> > >> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
> > >>
> > >> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> > >> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> > >> :-)
> > >>
> > >> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> > >> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> > >> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> > >> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> > >> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> > >> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> > >> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> > >> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> > >> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> > >> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> > >> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> > >> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> > >> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> > >> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> > >> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> > >> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> > >> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> > >> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> > >> group.Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> > >> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> > >> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
> > >>
> > >> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> > >> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> > >> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> > >> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
> > >>
> > >> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> > >> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> > >> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> > >> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> > >> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> > >> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> > >> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> > >> Wikimedia projects.
> > >>
> > >> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> > >> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> > >> the coauthors.
> > >>
> > >> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> > >> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> > >> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> > >> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> > >> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email,
> there
> > >> are
> > >> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> > >> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
> > >>
> > >> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> > >> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> > >> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> > >> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> > >> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> > >> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> > >> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> > >> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> > >> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> > >> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> > >> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> > >> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> > >> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> > >> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> > >> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> > >> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> > >> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> > >> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> > >> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> > >> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
> > >>
> > >> Links
> > >> 0.
> > >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> > >> 1.
> > >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> > >> 2. https://enThanks,.
> > >> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> > >> 3.
> > >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> > >> 4.
> > >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> > >> 5.
> > >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Fae
> > >> --
> > >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Pierre-Selim
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Fæ
Fae
Not your fault for looking at it, more like your fault for interpreting it in the worst possible way, against hints given by the author, and insisting that your interpretation is more correct than the meaning intended by the author, even after getting a rational and plausible explanation from the author.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fæ
Sent: 06 March 2019 10:37
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
worth.

Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.

Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
open knowledge agenda.

Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
side do you wanna be on?"

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
2. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12115577

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are even worse.
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all means.
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
>
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
> I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
> This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
> Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
> To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
> If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> Nattes à chat
>
> (1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >
> > "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> > Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> > Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> >
> > I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
> > idea.
> >
> > The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
> > sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
> >
> > M.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> >> final time. How embarrassing!
> >>
> >> ****
> >>
> >> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> >> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> >> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> >> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> >> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> >> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> >> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> >> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> >> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> >> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> >> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> >> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> >> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> >> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> >> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
> >>
> >> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> >> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> >> :-)
> >>
> >> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> >> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> >> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> >> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> >> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> >> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> >> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> >> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> >> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> >> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> >> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> >> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> >> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> >> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> >> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> >> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> >> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> >> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> >> group.Thanks,
> >>
> >> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> >> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> >> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
> >>
> >> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> >> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> >> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> >> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
> >>
> >> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> >> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> >> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> >> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> >> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> >> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> >> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> >> Wikimedia projects.
> >>
> >> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> >> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> >> the coauthors.
> >>
> >> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> >> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> >> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> >> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> >> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
> >> are
> >> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> >> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
> >>
> >> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> >> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> >> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> >> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> >> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> >> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> >> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> >> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> >> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> >> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> >> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> >> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
> >>
> >> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> >> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> >> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> >> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> >> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> >> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> >> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> >> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> >> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 0.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> >> 1.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> >> 2. https://enThanks,.
> >> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> >> 3.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> >> 4.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> >> 5.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"

Fæ
Thanks Peter.

Completely agree that I was stupid in my choice to use the word
"intended" in the deletion nomination, giving any impression that the
distress the article has caused might be presumed to be deliberate
when that was not what I intended to express. It was hasty, unwise, a
massive self defeating clanger. I apologised, I have taken
responsibility and corrected the MfD nomination to entirely focus on
the "Pronouns beware" essay. It was a perfectly valid criticism.

The MfD is ongoing and will probably close soon. I do not want to
discuss specifics here, people can go read it or contribute for
themselves rather than duplicating the points being made.

In more general procedural terms of what happens once the MfD is
closed as a keep or delete, it is a fact before publication concerns
were raised that it was likely to cause disruption and distress,
because of how it would be received, especially by our LGBT+ readers,
regardless of intent. That early concern gave not just the named
authors, but many active contributors to Signpost the opportunity to
discuss the draft, and perhaps ask that the essay be revised or kept
draft until those comments were talked through. It would be nice if
concerned Wikipedians joined in with discussions focused on
preventative action, showing that lessons can be learned, and Signpost
processes improved, especially for "red flag" issues where it seems
wise and positive to give extra scrutiny and time for reflection.

Improvement is something I expect almost everyone will wholeheartedly
want to see as an outcome of this incident. How about the idea that
"Signpost is a community effort that should serve our community's
values and needs, and that there is zero reason for it ever to be
'edgy' with humor or to in any way offend..." It might save a lot of
time if similar words were to become an agreed Signpost editorial
policy, but let's wait a while for the dust to settle, before starting
to create a consensus on that.[1]

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=886107859

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 12:24, Peter Southwood
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Fae
> Not your fault for looking at it, more like your fault for interpreting it in the worst possible way, against hints given by the author, and insisting that your interpretation is more correct than the meaning intended by the author, even after getting a rational and plausible explanation from the author.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fæ
> Sent: 06 March 2019 10:37
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>
> It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that
> they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone.
> That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that
> complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing
> that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a
> minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted
> group there are long term consequences that come from having less self
> worth.
>
> Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take
> long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and
> callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being
> intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your
> fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface
> minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted
> for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about
> trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are
> correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what
> we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s.
>
> Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions,
> especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not
> stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our
> website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who
> disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political
> purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our
> open knowledge agenda.
>
> Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What
> side do you wanna be on?"
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
> 2. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12115577
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Natasha,
> > I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are even worse.
> > As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all means.
> > The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions.
> > Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1).
> >
> > Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what they feel about these jokes.
> > I have a request : can we have the conversation freely?
> > This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the remarkable work done by people like you.
> > Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe not in humour tone.
> > To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking out.
> > If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in freedom of speech.
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> > (1) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> > >
> > > "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
> > > Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke
> > > Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> > >
> > > I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
> > > idea.
> > >
> > > The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
> > > sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
> > >
> > > M.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
> > >> final time. How embarrassing!
> > >>
> > >> ****
> > >>
> > >> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
> > >> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
> > >> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
> > >> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
> > >> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
> > >> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
> > >> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
> > >> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
> > >> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
> > >> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
> > >>
> > >> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
> > >> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
> > >> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
> > >> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
> > >> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
> > >> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
> > >>
> > >> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
> > >> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
> > >> :-)
> > >>
> > >> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
> > >> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
> > >> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
> > >> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
> > >> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
> > >> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
> > >> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
> > >> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
> > >> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
> > >> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
> > >> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
> > >> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
> > >> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
> > >> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
> > >> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
> > >> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
> > >> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
> > >> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
> > >> group.Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
> > >> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
> > >> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
> > >>
> > >> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
> > >> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
> > >> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
> > >> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
> > >>
> > >> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
> > >> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
> > >> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
> > >> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
> > >> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
> > >> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
> > >> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
> > >> Wikimedia projects.
> > >>
> > >> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
> > >> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
> > >> the coauthors.
> > >>
> > >> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
> > >> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
> > >> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
> > >> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
> > >> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
> > >> are
> > >> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
> > >> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
> > >>
> > >> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
> > >> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
> > >> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
> > >> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
> > >> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
> > >> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
> > >> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
> > >> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
> > >> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
> > >> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
> > >> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
> > >> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
> > >> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
> > >> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
> > >> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
> > >> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
> > >> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
> > >> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
> > >> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
> > >> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
> > >>
> > >> Links
> > >> 0.
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
> > >> 1.
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
> > >> 2. https://enThanks,.
> > >> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> > >> 3.
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
> > >> 4.
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
> > >> 5.
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Fae
> > >> --
> > >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>

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