[Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

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[Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Moushira Elamrawy-2
Greetings,

Following up on the reading strategy.
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Strategy/Strategy_Process/Testing>
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.

This aims at allowing a public space, where editors, staff and readers, can
submit and discuss ideas around our how to enhance user interaction with
content and with each other on Wikipedia.  We plan to run this for 4 weeks,
where after two weeks we can start to narrow down ideas and discuss them in
details.  Please check the link below, and feel free to submit ideas, ask
questions or leave a comment, and help us spread the word.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_Interaction_Consultation

Best,
Moushira
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Fæ
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early engagement
> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...

Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
especially by those without English as their first language.

Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
it just stood out today.

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Moushira Elamrawy-2
Hello Fae,

Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.

I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually
fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.

In any case, thanks for the note :-)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29

Moushira

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> ...
> > The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
> engagement
> > in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
> ...
>
> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
> especially by those without English as their first language.
>
> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
> it just stood out today.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Craig Franklin
Hi Moushira,

The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that
you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular
terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that there
is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a
particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:

* http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
* https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
*
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned

It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on
the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere, it
doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.

Cheers,
Craig

On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello Fae,
>
> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>
> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually
> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>
> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
>
> Moushira
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > ...
> > > The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
> > engagement
> > > in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
> > ...
> >
> > Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
> > however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
> > announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
> > 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
> > grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
> > frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
> > but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
> > and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
> > especially by those without English as their first language.
> >
> > Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
> > it just stood out today.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Pete Forsyth-2
But...but...Moushira just acknowledged the point. Gracefully, I think.
Can't we simply trust her to incorporate the feedback into future
announcements?

For anybody who had trouble discerning what the consultation is about, its
first question makes it clear:

"How can we make Wikipedia more interactive for Readers?"

Great question.
-Pete

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Moushira,
>
> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that
> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular
> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that there
> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a
> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
>
> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
> *
>
> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
>
> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on
> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere, it
> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Fae,
> >
> > Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
> > Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
> > fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
> > generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
> >
> > I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
> > think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
> actually
> > fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
> >
> > In any case, thanks for the note :-)
> >
> > [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
> >
> > Moushira
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
> > > engagement
> > > > in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
> > > however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
> > > announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
> > > 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
> > > grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
> > > frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
> > > but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
> > > and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
> > > especially by those without English as their first language.
> > >
> > > Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
> > > it just stood out today.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by Moushira Elamrawy-2
On 16 Mar 2016 07:07, "Moushira Elamrawy" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello Fae,
>
> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>
> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
actually
> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>
> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29

That is a woeful article, for a useless word with no fixed meaning. As far
as I can tell the component all usages agree on is "thinking" is involved.
See the many comments on the talk page.

A good test for whether a word should be used in communications to a wide
audience is how widely translated a Wikipedia article is. If it would be
translated to a different concept in other languages, it isn't a good
concept for this type of communication.

--
John
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Anders Wennersten-2
This is not he only case where I lately have observed a tendency to use
words which is more or less unintelligent for non-English speaking people.

The phrase "Inspire Campaign on content curation & review" includes a
number of complicated words. I commented upon this [1] to
Jethro who only  stated these were correct words, seemingly uninterested
the effect on reders of using those type of words. And now this message
has started to occurs in a banner, where a Swede has made an extremely
bad translation making it even more unintelligent. Our village pump is
full of people very upset of this, also as we usually do not translate
banner messages. In our discussion it has been put forward these
messages has done more harm to the brand then any of the problems lately
around WMF and BoT (these entities are rather vaguely known her)

And I expect most do as I, just refuse to take in any message from WMF,
not seeing they are interested to communicate with us (or get input from
us), only enwp

Anders



[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:I_JethroBT_%28WMF%29&diff=prev&oldid=15393279




Den 2016-03-16 kl. 05:40, skrev John Mark Vandenberg:

> On 16 Mar 2016 07:07, "Moushira Elamrawy" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello Fae,
>>
>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>>
>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
> actually
>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>>
>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>>
>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
> That is a woeful article, for a useless word with no fixed meaning. As far
> as I can tell the component all usages agree on is "thinking" is involved.
> See the many comments on the talk page.
>
> A good test for whether a word should be used in communications to a wide
> audience is how widely translated a Wikipedia article is. If it would be
> translated to a different concept in other languages, it isn't a good
> concept for this type of communication.
>
> --
> John
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Derek V.Giroulle
In reply to this post by Craig Franklin
Hello everyone ,

I agree with Fae and Craig,
It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
jargon form a professional background where the term has been misused
(imho)
It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like
a depressed patient
always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation
It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon  
because it has precise meaning
i wouls never associate it with  idea generation or brainstorming what
is wrong with using those words
as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon
the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
word form other jargon
show a lack of creativity of innovation

I would like to call on the communications dept to start  - and i can
just picture someone for that task - a campaign
at WMF  to ban jargon  "simply says it better"


derek


On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:

> Hi Moushira,
>
> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that
> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular
> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that there
> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a
> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
>
> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
> *
> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
>
> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on
> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere, it
> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Fae,
>>
>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>>
>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually
>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>>
>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>>
>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
>>
>> Moushira
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
>>> engagement
>>>> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
>>> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
>>> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
>>> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
>>> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
>>> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
>>> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
>>> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
>>> especially by those without English as their first language.
>>>
>>> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
>>> it just stood out today.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Fae
>>> --
>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Kind regards,
*Derek V. Giroulle*
Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
Treasurer
Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
M: [hidden email]
T: +32 494 134134
F: +32 3666 2700
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Oliver Keyes-5
While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary
phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully
acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem
in the future, for which I laud her.

If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the
WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a
new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everyone ,
>
> I agree with Fae and Craig,
> It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that jargon
> form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho)
> It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like a
> depressed patient
> always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation
> It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon
> because it has precise meaning
> i wouls never associate it with  idea generation or brainstorming what is
> wrong with using those words
> as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon
> the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a word
> form other jargon
> show a lack of creativity of innovation
>
> I would like to call on the communications dept to start  - and i can just
> picture someone for that task - a campaign
> at WMF  to ban jargon  "simply says it better"
>
>
> derek
>
>
>
> On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
>>
>> Hi Moushira,
>>
>> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that
>> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular
>> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
>> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that there
>> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a
>> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
>>
>> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
>> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
>> *
>>
>> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
>>
>> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on
>> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere, it
>> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Craig
>>
>> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Fae,
>>>
>>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context.
>>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these
>>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
>>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>>>
>>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I
>>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
>>> actually
>>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>>>
>>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>>>
>>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
>>>
>>> Moushira
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
>>>>
>>>> engagement
>>>>>
>>>>> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
>>>> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
>>>> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
>>>> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
>>>> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
>>>> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
>>>> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
>>>> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
>>>> especially by those without English as their first language.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
>>>> it just stood out today.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Fae
>>>> --
>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> *Derek V. Giroulle*
> Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
> Treasurer
> Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
> M: [hidden email]
> T: +32 494 134134
> F: +32 3666 2700
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Moushira Elamrawy-2
Hello again,

I see that we have an interesting input here.

Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in
their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon
Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any
corporate background  :). I come from a design background, and while I am
not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous
misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even
with other non-native speakers.

I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation"
(where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both
context
<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%28creative_process%29&limit=500>still)
. Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without
failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I,
therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself
without peer review.

I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using
words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their
context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just
wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose
a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to
decide.

Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and
globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not
again ;).

Point taken, thanks again everyone.

Moushira


On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary
> phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully
> acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem
> in the future, for which I laud her.
>
> If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the
> WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a
> new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello everyone ,
> >
> > I agree with Fae and Craig,
> > It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
> jargon
> > form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho)
> > It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like
> a
> > depressed patient
> > always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation
> > It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon
> > because it has precise meaning
> > i wouls never associate it with  idea generation or brainstorming what is
> > wrong with using those words
> > as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon
> > the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
> word
> > form other jargon
> > show a lack of creativity of innovation
> >
> > I would like to call on the communications dept to start  - and i can
> just
> > picture someone for that task - a campaign
> > at WMF  to ban jargon  "simply says it better"
> >
> >
> > derek
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Moushira,
> >>
> >> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that
> >> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
> particular
> >> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
> >> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that
> there
> >> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
> is a
> >> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
> >>
> >> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
> >> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
> >>
> >> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're
> on
> >> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere,
> it
> >> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Fae,
> >>>
> >>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
> context.
> >>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
> these
> >>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
> >>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
> >>>
> >>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant;
> I
> >>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
> >>> actually
> >>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
> >>>
> >>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
> >>>
> >>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
> >>>
> >>> Moushira
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
> >>>>
> >>>> engagement
> >>>>>
> >>>>> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
> >>>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
> >>>> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
> >>>> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more
> >>>> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
> >>>> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
> >>>> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
> >>>> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
> >>>> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America,
> >>>> especially by those without English as their first language.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other,
> >>>> it just stood out today.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Fae
> >>>> --
> >>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kind regards,
> > *Derek V. Giroulle*
> > Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
> > Treasurer
> > Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
> > M: [hidden email]
> > T: +32 494 134134
> > F: +32 3666 2700
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Richard Symonds-3
Thanks Moushira :-)
On 16 Mar 2016 16:55, "Moushira Elamrawy" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello again,
>
> I see that we have an interesting input here.
>
> Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in
> their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon
> Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any
> corporate background  :). I come from a design background, and while I am
> not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous
> misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even
> with other non-native speakers.
>
> I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation"
> (where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both
> context
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%28creative_process%29&limit=500
> >still)
> . Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without
> failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I,
> therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself
> without peer review.
>
> I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using
> words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their
> context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just
> wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose
> a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to
> decide.
>
> Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and
> globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not
> again ;).
>
> Point taken, thanks again everyone.
>
> Moushira
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary
> > phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully
> > acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem
> > in the future, for which I laud her.
> >
> > If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the
> > WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a
> > new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Hello everyone ,
> > >
> > > I agree with Fae and Craig,
> > > It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
> > jargon
> > > form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho)
> > > It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea ,
> like
> > a
> > > depressed patient
> > > always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation
> > > It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon
> > > because it has precise meaning
> > > i wouls never associate it with  idea generation or brainstorming what
> is
> > > wrong with using those words
> > > as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon
> > > the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
> > word
> > > form other jargon
> > > show a lack of creativity of innovation
> > >
> > > I would like to call on the communications dept to start  - and i can
> > just
> > > picture someone for that task - a campaign
> > > at WMF  to ban jargon  "simply says it better"
> > >
> > >
> > > derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Moushira,
> > >>
> > >> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is
> that
> > >> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
> > particular
> > >> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
> > >> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that
> > there
> > >> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
> > is a
> > >> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
> > >>
> > >> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
> > >> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
> > >> *
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
> > >>
> > >> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while
> we're
> > on
> > >> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere,
> > it
> > >> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Craig
> > >>
> > >> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hello Fae,
> > >>>
> > >>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
> > context.
> > >>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
> > these
> > >>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
> > >>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are
> relevant;
> > I
> > >>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
> > >>> actually
> > >>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
> > >>>
> > >>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
> > >>>
> > >>> Moushira
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>> ...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
> > >>>>
> > >>>> engagement
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
> > >>>> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
> > >>>> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see
> more
> > >>>> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
> > >>>> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
> > >>>> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
> > >>>> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
> > >>>> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate
> America,
> > >>>> especially by those without English as their first language.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any
> other,
> > >>>> it just stood out today.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> Fae
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kind regards,
> > > *Derek V. Giroulle*
> > > Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
> > > Treasurer
> > > Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
> > > M: [hidden email]
> > > T: +32 494 134134
> > > F: +32 3666 2700
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] User interaction on Wikipedia --call for submissions

Derek V.Giroulle
Hello Moushira,

Iḿ sorry i didn't say this explicitely , i was n persoanlly attacking you
i was as you point  out  focussing the critic at jargon use in the WMF

thanks
derek

On 16-03-16 17:58, Richard Symonds wrote:

> Thanks Moushira :-)
> On 16 Mar 2016 16:55, "Moushira Elamrawy" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello again,
>>
>> I see that we have an interesting input here.
>>
>> Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in
>> their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon
>> Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any
>> corporate background  :). I come from a design background, and while I am
>> not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous
>> misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even
>> with other non-native speakers.
>>
>> I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation"
>> (where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both
>> context
>> <
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%28creative_process%29&limit=500
>>> still)
>> . Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without
>> failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I,
>> therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself
>> without peer review.
>>
>> I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using
>> words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their
>> context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just
>> wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose
>> a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to
>> decide.
>>
>> Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and
>> globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not
>> again ;).
>>
>> Point taken, thanks again everyone.
>>
>> Moushira
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary
>>> phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully
>>> acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem
>>> in the future, for which I laud her.
>>>
>>> If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the
>>> WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a
>>> new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone ,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Fae and Craig,
>>>> It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
>>> jargon
>>>> form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho)
>>>> It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea ,
>> like
>>> a
>>>> depressed patient
>>>> always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation
>>>> It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon
>>>> because it has precise meaning
>>>> i wouls never associate it with  idea generation or brainstorming what
>> is
>>>> wrong with using those words
>>>> as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon
>>>> the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
>>> word
>>>> form other jargon
>>>> show a lack of creativity of innovation
>>>>
>>>> I would like to call on the communications dept to start  - and i can
>>> just
>>>> picture someone for that task - a campaign
>>>> at WMF  to ban jargon  "simply says it better"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
>>>>> Hi Moushira,
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is
>> that
>>>>> you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
>>> particular
>>>>> terminology used in the field.  Especially so when there are plenty of
>>>>> plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place.  Note that
>>> there
>>>>> is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
>>> is a
>>>>> particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
>>>>>
>>>>> * http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
>>>>> * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be-banned
>>>>> It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while
>> we're
>>> on
>>>>> the topic it should be pointed out.  Just because it's used elsewhere,
>>> it
>>>>> doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Fae,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
>>> context.
>>>>>> Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
>>> these
>>>>>> fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea
>>>>>> generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are
>> relevant;
>>> I
>>>>>> think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, thanks for the note :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moushira
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <
>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
>>>>>>> engagement
>>>>>>>> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation,
>>>>>>> however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia
>>>>>>> announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see
>> more
>>>>>>> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and
>>>>>>> grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be
>>>>>>> frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices,
>>>>>>> but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors,
>>>>>>> and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate
>> America,
>>>>>>> especially by those without English as their first language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any
>> other,
>>>>>>> it just stood out today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> *Derek V. Giroulle*
>>>> Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
>>>> Treasurer
>>>> Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
>>>> M: [hidden email]
>>>> T: +32 494 134134
>>>> F: +32 3666 2700
>>>>
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Kind regards,
*Derek V. Giroulle*
Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
Treasurer
Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
M: [hidden email]
T: +32 494 134134
F: +32 3666 2700
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