[Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
17 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Keegan Peterzell
There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
discuss people."[0]

Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
after fellow human beings for political gain.

0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/

--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Denny Vrandecic-6
Thanks. I also got reminded about that a few times, recently. I would love
this to be more reflected upon.


On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
>
> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
> discuss people."[0]
>
> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
> after fellow human beings for political gain.
>
> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Gabriel Wicke-3
Thank you. I wholeheartedly agree with your point, and hope that we
can find the courage to remind each other of this more often. Small,
early reminders can go a long way towards avoiding a gradual erosion
of boundaries.

Gabriel

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Denny Vrandecic
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks. I also got reminded about that a few times, recently. I would love
> this to be more reflected upon.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
>> discuss people."[0]
>>
>> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
>> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
>> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
>> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
>> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
>> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
>> after fellow human beings for political gain.
>>
>> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
>>
>> --
>> ~Keegan
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>>
>> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
>> is in a personal capacity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Gabriel Wicke
Principal Engineer, Wikimedia Foundation

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Chris Sherlock
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 10:49 AM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
>
> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
> discuss people."[0]
>
> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
> after fellow human beings for political gain.
>
> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
>
> --
> ~Keegan

I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.

Just a thought.

Chris


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Keegan Peterzell
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
>
> Just a thought.
>

​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.

Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/

--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Pine W
Hi Keegan,

I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
community would be best served by having that person step down or be
removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed people
from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
suggestions.

Thanks,

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
>
> ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
> at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
> and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
>
> Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
> toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
>
> 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Anna Stillwell
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell
I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
Thank you.
/a

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
>
> ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
> at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
> and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
>
> Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
> toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
>
> 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Anna Stillwell
Major Gifts Officer
Wikimedia Foundation
415.806.1536
*www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Pine W
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Keegan,
>
> I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
> we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
> if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
> wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
> CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
> community would be best served by having that person step down or be
> removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed people
> from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
> So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
> accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine


​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.

Don't write words with outlandish hyperbole, conspiracy theories,
destructive criticism, gross assumptions and stereotypes, and massively
loaded language.​


--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Sam Klein
In reply to this post by Anna Stillwell
+1

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Anna Stillwell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
> Thank you.
> /a
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> > >
> > > Just a thought.
> > >
> >
> > ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the
> issues
> > at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in
> events
> > and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
> >
> > Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> > issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> > very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> > as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> > every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two
> other
> > toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
> >
> > 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> > 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
> >
> > --
> > ~Keegan
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> >
> > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> address
> > is in a personal capacity.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Anna Stillwell
> Major Gifts Officer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 415.806.1536
> *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Keegan,
>>
>> I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
>> we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
>> if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
>> wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
>> CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
>> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
>> community would be best served by having that person step down or be
>> removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed
>> people
>> from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
>> So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
>> accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
>> suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pine
>
>
> ​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.
>
>
​"Strike that, reverse it." ~ Willy Wonka[0]

Sound logic and measured emotions.

0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJo2EZW8yU​


--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Chris Sherlock

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 3:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> ​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.
>>
>>
> ​"Strike that, reverse it." ~ Willy Wonka[0]
>
> Sound logic and measured emotions.
>
> 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJo2EZW8yU​

Thank goodness. I was trying to work out for ages what wasn’t quite right about that!

Agreed +1 from me also.

Chris
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Sam Klein
I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Anna Stillwell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
> > Thank you.
> > /a
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > > > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> > > >
> > > > Just a thought.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the
> > issues
> > > at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in
> > events
> > > and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
> > >
> > > Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about
> the
> > > issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is
> a
> > > very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see
> this,
> > > as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> > > every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two
> > other
> > > toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
> > >
> > > 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> > > 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~Keegan
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> > >
> > > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> > address
> > > is in a personal capacity.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Anna Stillwell
> > Major Gifts Officer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > 415.806.1536
> > *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Keegan Peterzell
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.
>
>
I did not bring this up in response to any one particular person, thread,
or individual post.
​The issues are much broader and run far deeper, namely, the acceptability
of actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise of
all of our shared concerns..

--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Anthony Cole
Keegan, regarding

"...actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise of all
of our shared concerns."

Given the nature of the recent crises, some of the things that needed
saying were, simply, going to hurt people. You can't accuse someone of
incompetence or untrustworthiness without hurting them. Apart from some
stuff Jimmy said on his talk page about James, I'm not aware of anyone
saying stuff that could be read as *just* seeking to hurt others.

But you're right, I and several others could have taken more care with our
words to minimise the distress our views must have caused.





Anthony Cole


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.
> >
> >
> I did not bring this up in response to any one particular person, thread,
> or individual post.
> ​The issues are much broader and run far deeper, namely, the acceptability
> of actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise of
> all of our shared concerns..
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
To be brutally honest. The way several people on this list have behaved has
been really distressing. The format they used has been a disguise for
hostility. The problem is that these "pillars of society" bring the house
down.

At issue was trust. Trust between staff and the ED. There were other issues
like problems at board level that had little to do with what was initially
brought as a big thing (think search engine).

The ED has been sacrificed. It is obvious that the baying for blood has not
stopped.

Sad, depressing.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 3 March 2016 at 12:31, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Keegan, regarding
>
> "...actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise
> of all
> of our shared concerns."
>
> Given the nature of the recent crises, some of the things that needed
> saying were, simply, going to hurt people. You can't accuse someone of
> incompetence or untrustworthiness without hurting them. Apart from some
> stuff Jimmy said on his talk page about James, I'm not aware of anyone
> saying stuff that could be read as *just* seeking to hurt others.
>
> But you're right, I and several others could have taken more care with our
> words to minimise the distress our views must have caused.
>
>
>
>
>
> Anthony Cole
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.
> > >
> > >
> > I did not bring this up in response to any one particular person, thread,
> > or individual post.
> > ​The issues are much broader and run far deeper, namely, the
> acceptability
> > of actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise
> of
> > all of our shared concerns..
> >
> > --
> > ~Keegan
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> >
> > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> address
> > is in a personal capacity.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Derek V.Giroulle
In reply to this post by Pine W
Pine ,

One of the things iḿ missing is the wiki movement is an independant
judiciary
The Wiki community  does not apply the following principles  :
- Presumtion of innocence :  Innocent until proven guilty
- Favor of the doubt for the accused
- Clear procedure
- No independant judges :  often "judges" are accuser, judge and hangman
- No independant system of appeal

Furthermore  if you look at elections :  people are not elected by the
community but by a very insignificant minority ( in size)  but a very
vocal minority often  that  bully people into submission, with their
"powers"

What the system has in term of egalitarian democracy of the anonimous
crowd to start with it lacks in formal democratic principles.

My conclusion "civility" on wikipeida is an illusion but that is only my
insignificant opinion

Derek


On 03-03-16 05:01, Pine W wrote:

> Hi Keegan,
>
> I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
> we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
> if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
> wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
> CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
> community would be best served by having that person step down or be
> removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed people
> from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
> So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
> accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
>>> events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
>>>
>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>> ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
>> at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
>> and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
>>
>> Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
>> issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
>> very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
>> as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
>> every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
>> toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
>>
>> 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
>> 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
>>
>> --
>> ~Keegan
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>>
>> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
>> is in a personal capacity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Kind regards,
*Derek V. Giroulle*
Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
Treasurer
Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
M: [hidden email]
T: +32 494 134134
F: +32 3666 2700
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

Fæ
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On 3 March 2016 at 11:53, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> The ED has been sacrificed. It is obvious that the baying for blood has not
> stopped.

Last time I checked, Lila was still alive and supporting the WMF for
the rest of the month. Fortunately the age of martyrs is long past.

It is true that a change of CEO, means a convenient scapegoat so that
issues that had absolutely nothing to do with Lila, such as Jimmy
Wales' "utter fucking bullshit" attacks,[4] can be spun away and might
be forgotten by the community. The trouble is, that many of these
problems have not vanished just because Lila will be moving on. The
deep rooted problems must be faced by the current board of trustees,
and they can rely on the fact that after 15 years of organic growth of
the community, there are too many passionate WMF observers, tech
journalists and long serving Wikimedia volunteers who have memories
stretching back longer than most trustees have been around.

Criticism of the WMF board to be expected, when we read ridiculous
contradictions in public statements and the jaw dropping failures in
trustee governance over the past few months. Though a couple of
"nutcases" (to quote a recent email sent to me) may be read as
bloodthirsty and probably not worth focusing on, the vast majority of
critical posts are supported by the facts and expressed in a civil
way, even if they are grounded in anger and disappointment because,
you know, those of us writing here who are not paid to do so, care
about what happens to *our* Wikimedia projects and the future of *our*
content.

Fortunately we have been reassured many, many times that the trustees
are listening, being thoughtful and they are nothing like clowns.
Sadly the trustees are also many months overdue to take any meaningful
positive action on their own failed governance. As an example, the
Geshuri fiasco has not resulted in a single improvement so far,
perhaps there never will be anything more than political spin in
response, even the Board Governance Committee has not changed a single
face as far as I can tell (though, they appear to have not published
any minutes since 2013, may there are minutes hidden away somewhere
equally opaque, it's beyond my skills to discover them at this
moment).[1]

In the meantime, dearest Gerard, please turn down the dial from 11 to
a 6, especially if you are going to keep on being the most prolific
poster breaking the 30 post soft limit month after month.[2][3]

Links
1. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:Minutes
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven
3. https://stats.wikimedia.org/mail-lists/wikimedia-l.html
4. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/27/trust_me_pleads_wikipedia_former_google_man/

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>