[Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

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[Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

Richard Ames
Micru,

I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!

Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the WMF.
I thought it needed to be better planed / managed.

I could not get enough interest to progress the conversation.

You may wish to read https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Management
and the talk page thereof.....

Regards, Richard.

On 10 June 2018 at 06:25, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aubrey,
>
> You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling overwhelmed right
>

<cut>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
One reason why you do not get much traction is because many people, myself
included, found that there is little purpose in spending time on Meta. It
is time spend in a frustrating way and it hardly ever results in the kind
of results you hope for. The time necessary to keep up with what is written
there robs you of the time for projects. Projects are practical and expand
on the things you really care for. For me that is work on subjects that do
not get the light of day from most others.

My meta thoughts I publish on my blog [1], subjects are my projects and my
thoughts as I progress .I write there and to be honest, I do not expect
much of anyone; I am happy with a single person seeing the benefits and
contributing in what I do. Currently I work on African politicians, my
interest on Ottoman and Islamic history is on hold for the moment. I find
that my thinking is often controversial.

Currently there are some moves about paying admins, maybe others. I am
strongly opposed because what you sponsor is not so much the work done but
the ability to do the work *and *read Meta. Given reports of ninety pages,
it is hardly feasible to keep up even with Wiki as a full time job. It is
why we should not sponsor what are in effect policy tigers.

When people talk about fulfilment and having a life, in my current job, I
work 51 hours a week, I have plenty of slack time; a few minutes here and
there. For that Wikidata is excellent. In addition I have to shop, cook,
wash the dishes... and be loving to my wife.
Thanks,
     GerardM

[1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/

On 10 June 2018 at 02:08, Richard Ames <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Micru,
>
> I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!
>
> Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the WMF.
> I thought it needed to be better planed / managed.
>
> I could not get enough interest to progress the conversation.
>
> You may wish to read https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Management
> and the talk page thereof.....
>
> Regards, Richard.
>
> On 10 June 2018 at 06:25, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Aubrey,
> >
> > You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling overwhelmed right
> >
>
> <cut>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

David Cuenca Tudela
@Richard:
Thanks for your words, they matter to me!
I took a look to the page that you linked and I did some changes (I
explained them on the talk page), I hope you are ok with them.
In principle it is a good idea, but as always a group of people is needed
to put it in practice, and it doesn't seem that there is enough social
capital to start that.

@Gerard:
It is true that Meta takes time, but it is the only place that can help us
coordinating a global movement so diverse as ours. It is also the only
neutral place where people from different projects can come and talk
without feeling that they are going to someone else's house (for instance
that is how it feels to go as a Wikidatan to Wikipedia and vice versa). And
without dialogue there cannot be real cooperation and mutual understanding.

Your private blog is fine, your work is fine, you can work your whole life
in isolation and be fine. However, if you want to listen to all the voices
and do something for them and for you, then you need some infrastructure,
social and technical. Meta is that place.

You seem to oppose volunteers receiving donations because of the overhead
that it will generate. I think that if that is the issue, then an effort
should be done to create shorter reports. Normally reports are long because
readers want them to be long, if there would be some understanding that
they take time from everyone, they could be shorter, or at least there
could be summaries.

Every person has a different situation and finds fulfillment in different
things, you cannot expect your situation to be universal, and if you are
fine with yours great for you. I am not so pleased with my situation, that
is why I want a change for myself, and of course for everyone that wants a
change too.

Regards,
Micru

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:14 AM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> One reason why you do not get much traction is because many people, myself
> included, found that there is little purpose in spending time on Meta. It
> is time spend in a frustrating way and it hardly ever results in the kind
> of results you hope for. The time necessary to keep up with what is written
> there robs you of the time for projects. Projects are practical and expand
> on the things you really care for. For me that is work on subjects that do
> not get the light of day from most others.
>
> My meta thoughts I publish on my blog [1], subjects are my projects and my
> thoughts as I progress .I write there and to be honest, I do not expect
> much of anyone; I am happy with a single person seeing the benefits and
> contributing in what I do. Currently I work on African politicians, my
> interest on Ottoman and Islamic history is on hold for the moment. I find
> that my thinking is often controversial.
>
> Currently there are some moves about paying admins, maybe others. I am
> strongly opposed because what you sponsor is not so much the work done but
> the ability to do the work *and *read Meta. Given reports of ninety pages,
> it is hardly feasible to keep up even with Wiki as a full time job. It is
> why we should not sponsor what are in effect policy tigers.
>
> When people talk about fulfilment and having a life, in my current job, I
> work 51 hours a week, I have plenty of slack time; a few minutes here and
> there. For that Wikidata is excellent. In addition I have to shop, cook,
> wash the dishes... and be loving to my wife.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> [1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
>
> On 10 June 2018 at 02:08, Richard Ames <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Micru,
> >
> > I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!
> >
> > Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the
> WMF.
> > I thought it needed to be better planed / managed.
> >
> > I could not get enough interest to progress the conversation.
> >
> > You may wish to read
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Management
> > and the talk page thereof.....
> >
> > Regards, Richard.
> >
> > On 10 June 2018 at 06:25, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Aubrey,
> > >
> > > You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling overwhelmed
> right
> > >
> >
> > <cut>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Etiamsi omnes, ego non
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
You read me wrong. I am not happy because in contrast to you I find that
meta is too much of a time sync. To follow the diverse conversations that
are taking place it almost takes a full time job. When you add the
animosity when you come with arguments that are not considered, it is too
much.

The notion that you get to cooperate and have mutual understanding is a
myth.

It does not mean that I give up, I do the things that I feel are important.
Things that are often contrarian. I feel that we should concentrate on high
schools for languages like Zulu and Yoruba because Wikipedia fellows will
not have any impact there. I feel that too much attention is given to
English Wikipedia; it is not 50% of our traffic and with an equal attention
to all other Wikipedias it would be even less. Even a success story like
gender gap is overrated because other gaps exist that are even worse:
Africa for instance has no percent of humans in Wikidata.

So no, I disagree with you. Your premises are wrong. They do not even work
for you.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 11 June 2018 at 10:25, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @Richard:
> Thanks for your words, they matter to me!
> I took a look to the page that you linked and I did some changes (I
> explained them on the talk page), I hope you are ok with them.
> In principle it is a good idea, but as always a group of people is needed
> to put it in practice, and it doesn't seem that there is enough social
> capital to start that.
>
> @Gerard:
> It is true that Meta takes time, but it is the only place that can help us
> coordinating a global movement so diverse as ours. It is also the only
> neutral place where people from different projects can come and talk
> without feeling that they are going to someone else's house (for instance
> that is how it feels to go as a Wikidatan to Wikipedia and vice versa). And
> without dialogue there cannot be real cooperation and mutual understanding.
>
> Your private blog is fine, your work is fine, you can work your whole life
> in isolation and be fine. However, if you want to listen to all the voices
> and do something for them and for you, then you need some infrastructure,
> social and technical. Meta is that place.
>
> You seem to oppose volunteers receiving donations because of the overhead
> that it will generate. I think that if that is the issue, then an effort
> should be done to create shorter reports. Normally reports are long because
> readers want them to be long, if there would be some understanding that
> they take time from everyone, they could be shorter, or at least there
> could be summaries.
>
> Every person has a different situation and finds fulfillment in different
> things, you cannot expect your situation to be universal, and if you are
> fine with yours great for you. I am not so pleased with my situation, that
> is why I want a change for myself, and of course for everyone that wants a
> change too.
>
> Regards,
> Micru
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:14 AM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > One reason why you do not get much traction is because many people,
> myself
> > included, found that there is little purpose in spending time on Meta. It
> > is time spend in a frustrating way and it hardly ever results in the kind
> > of results you hope for. The time necessary to keep up with what is
> written
> > there robs you of the time for projects. Projects are practical and
> expand
> > on the things you really care for. For me that is work on subjects that
> do
> > not get the light of day from most others.
> >
> > My meta thoughts I publish on my blog [1], subjects are my projects and
> my
> > thoughts as I progress .I write there and to be honest, I do not expect
> > much of anyone; I am happy with a single person seeing the benefits and
> > contributing in what I do. Currently I work on African politicians, my
> > interest on Ottoman and Islamic history is on hold for the moment. I find
> > that my thinking is often controversial.
> >
> > Currently there are some moves about paying admins, maybe others. I am
> > strongly opposed because what you sponsor is not so much the work done
> but
> > the ability to do the work *and *read Meta. Given reports of ninety
> pages,
> > it is hardly feasible to keep up even with Wiki as a full time job. It is
> > why we should not sponsor what are in effect policy tigers.
> >
> > When people talk about fulfilment and having a life, in my current job, I
> > work 51 hours a week, I have plenty of slack time; a few minutes here and
> > there. For that Wikidata is excellent. In addition I have to shop, cook,
> > wash the dishes... and be loving to my wife.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > [1] https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
> >
> > On 10 June 2018 at 02:08, Richard Ames <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Micru,
> > >
> > > I think a lot of us care.  I wish you well!
> > >
> > > Some time ago I tried to put some thoughts around volunteering at the
> > WMF.
> > > I thought it needed to be better planed / managed.
> > >
> > > I could not get enough interest to progress the conversation.
> > >
> > > You may wish to read
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Management
> > > and the talk page thereof.....
> > >
> > > Regards, Richard.
> > >
> > > On 10 June 2018 at 06:25, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Aubrey,
> > > >
> > > > You speak so much truth in your words that I'm feeling overwhelmed
> > right
> > > >
> > >
> > > <cut>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Volunteering and Appreciation (was: Appropriation of the Wikimedia Blog by the WMF)

David Cuenca Tudela
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 19:39 Gerard Meijssen, <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>  When you add the animosity when you come with arguments that are not
> considered, it is too much.
>

Lack of mutual listening is a constant in our movement that I would like to
address one way or another. The animosity depends more on your own
animosity. You normally bring a high degree of animosity and inflexibility
into the conversations, so it's normal that you experience it back.

The notion that you get to cooperate and have mutual understanding is a
> myth.
>

In general I work towards mutual understanding. If more people would do the
same that reality would grow stronger.

So no, I disagree with you. Your premises are wrong. They do not even work
> for you.
>

Which premises? That participating in Meta is worthwhile? For me it works,
so please do not make judgements for me. If Meta is not for you it's fine,
I don't need to convince you of anything. However if you ever would need
global change, the tools available are not that many. You seem to dislike
Meta, but you don't offer any alternative.

Regards,
Micru

>
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Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
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