[Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
5 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Subhashish Panigrahi
Dear Wikimedians,

Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to have
a clear answer.

Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks or
even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)? This
is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might not
be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was created
for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.

Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less written/recorded
documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.

1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia projects
that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation as
almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
Wiktionary (
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
)

Subhashish
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
This is a really interesting topic. Those who are used to the latin script normally don't get the difficulties to answer this question, but it can be a real challenge. An alphanumeric random code could be an answer, but we are still in the same point!
________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Subhashish Panigrahi <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 9:25 PM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Dear Wikimedians,

Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to have
a clear answer.

Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks or
even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)? This
is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might not
be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was created
for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.

Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less written/recorded
documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.

1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia projects
that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation as
almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
Wiktionary (
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
)

Subhashish
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Jeff Hawke
In reply to this post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Suhashih

You are right that this could be a controversial choice -- indeed it is
inherently political and there is no way of avoiding that fact.  So where
will the decision be taken, on what grounds and by what athority?

Jeff

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:26 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
> who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
> that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to have
> a clear answer.
>
> Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
> creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks or
> even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
> Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
> the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
> speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
> colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)? This
> is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might not
> be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was created
> for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.
>
> Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less written/recorded
> documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
> encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.
>
> 1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia projects
> that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation as
> almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
> challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
> Wiktionary (
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
> )
>
> Subhashish
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Peter Southwood
Perhaps this is something that should be left as the choice of the volunteers who contribute the content? Whatever they feel comfortable with and are competent in. It may vary between contributors for the same language.
Once content is published, anyone with the skills and desire can transliterate to any other script system of their choice. Others can translate to any other language of their choice. This is the wiki way of doing things. If we have support for a script system it can be used, if not that becomes a technical problem.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hawke
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 12:58 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

Suhashih

You are right that this could be a controversial choice -- indeed it is
inherently political and there is no way of avoiding that fact.  So where
will the decision be taken, on what grounds and by what athority?

Jeff

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:26 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
> who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
> that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to have
> a clear answer.
>
> Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
> creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks or
> even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
> Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
> the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
> speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
> colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)? This
> is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might not
> be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was created
> for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.
>
> Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less written/recorded
> documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
> encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.
>
> 1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia projects
> that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation as
> almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
> challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
> Wiktionary (
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
> )
>
> Subhashish
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Most of the Wikis in the Wikimedia family are organised by language, not
just script. If you load something that is in the wrong language for a
particular wiki it is liable to be deleted as out of scope. That's before
people get into discussions as to whether this is oral history or something
someone has just made up.

I would suggest Wikibooks is your best bet, it already exists in 120
languages, and unlike  Wikisource it allows for original publications.

If we don't yet have that language supported and you have a small team that
wants to work in that language  you can request a new language be added.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages If the request
is approved, the WMF has an internationalization team who can do things
like create new scripts, though I suspect one of your first tasks will be
to translate the various user messages etc for mediawiki.

Alternatively you could look at the incubator
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Incubator

More broadly, the 2019 Strategy recommendations are still being consulted
with the community, there is an assumption by some and a fear by others
that the whole lot, or at least the ideas that have previously been
rejected by the community, will be adopted by acclamation /imposed on the
community. At the least, I would suggest not jumping the gun, particularly
on something that is liable to be deleted under current policy.

At present it isn't even clear that the Foundation is committed to upping
language support from the current 300 or so languages to potentially
several thousand, and if they do adopt that as an aspiration, it may take
some time for the staff to make that a reality.

Regards

WSC

>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 11:58:26 +0100
> From: Jeff Hawke <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Suhashih
>
> You are right that this could be a controversial choice -- indeed it is
> inherently political and there is no way of avoiding that fact.  So where
> will the decision be taken, on what grounds and by what athority?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:26 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
> > who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
> > that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to
> have
> > a clear answer.
> >
> > Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
> > creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks
> or
> > even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
> > Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
> > the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
> > speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
> > colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)?
> This
> > is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might
> not
> > be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was
> created
> > for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.
> >
> > Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less
> written/recorded
> > documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
> > encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.
> >
> > 1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia
> projects
> > that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation
> as
> > almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
> > challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
> > Wiktionary (
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
> > )
> >
> > Subhashish
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 13:42:02 +0200
> From: "Peter Southwood" <[hidden email]>
> To: "'Wikimedia Mailing List'" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?
> Message-ID: <005301d56315$c7c0c4e0$57424ea0$@telkomsa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="utf-8"
>
> Perhaps this is something that should be left as the choice of the
> volunteers who contribute the content? Whatever they feel comfortable with
> and are competent in. It may vary between contributors for the same
> language.
> Once content is published, anyone with the skills and desire can
> transliterate to any other script system of their choice. Others can
> translate to any other language of their choice. This is the wiki way of
> doing things. If we have support for a script system it can be used, if not
> that becomes a technical problem.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Hawke
> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 12:58 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Which script oral language will use anyway?
>
> Suhashih
>
> You are right that this could be a controversial choice -- indeed it is
> inherently political and there is no way of avoiding that fact.  So where
> will the decision be taken, on what grounds and by what athority?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:26 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > Some of you might be recovering from the Wikimania fatigue. Those of you
> > who have already recovered, I wanted to pick your brain about something
> > that came up multiple times during discussions but none really seem to
> have
> > a clear answer.
> >
> > Which script (writing system) an oral language speaker would use for
> > creating an entry on (gateway [1]) projects like Wiktionary or Wikibooks
> or
> > even uploading a list of words on Commons using a tool like Lingua Libre?
> > Will it be the script used for the official language of the region where
> > the former language is from?[2] This is a bit controversial as native
> > speakers of many indigenous languages would see this as a form of
> > colonization. Will it be the w:International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)?
> This
> > is probably the least controversial but a common and average user might
> not
> > be able to read IPA as the latter was created by linguists and was
> created
> > for linguistic and scholarly studies rather than for everyday use.
> >
> > Wikimedians who are native speakers of languages with less
> written/recorded
> > documentation and individuals who work on such languages are more
> > encouraged to share their inputs based on past experience.
> >
> > 1. Gateway project: This is a made-up term to define the Wikimedia
> projects
> > that are more welcoming to newbies and do not require stringent citation
> as
> > almost all oral languages would lack that. It was fascinating to see Amir
> > challenging that it only takes about 30 seconds to add an entry to
> > Wiktionary (
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amir_Aharoni_demonstrating_how_to_add_an_entry_to_Wiktionary_in_any_language_to_Ingrid_Cumming,_Wikimania_2019,_Stockholm,_Sweden.jpg
> > )
> >
> > Subhashish
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 186, Issue 3
> *******************************************
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>