[Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

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[Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Florence Devouard-6
Is that directly run by Wikimedia Foundation staff or is that run by an
independant company "paid" by WMF to manage the shop ?

Who is behind the email address [hidden email] ?

Thank you

Florence


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Joseph Seddon-6
Hey Florence,

Regarding your first question the shop is Foundation owned and run but
hosted by Shopify, an e-commerce provider. [1] The orders are then sent to
our fulfillment partner, SWAGBOT. [2] We have a staff contractor, Gretchen
Holtman, who runs the shop for the Wikimedia Foundation. [3]

The email address is responded to by Wikimedia Foundation staff typically
either Gretchen for regarding issues surrounding the Wikimedia Shop, or
myself in relation to the merchandise giveaway scheme. [4]

Feel free to contact me off list if there is anything I can help you with.

Seddon

[1] https://www.shopify.co.uk/
[2] https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/our-fulfillment-company
[3]
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Fundraising_Operations
[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_giveaways
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Is that directly run by Wikimedia Foundation staff or is that run by an
> independant company "paid" by WMF to manage the shop ?
>
> Who is behind the email address [hidden email] ?
>
> Thank you
>
> Florence
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Florence Devouard-6
Thank you

I sent you a private email.

Flo

Le 21/03/16 11:28, Joseph Seddon a écrit :

> Hey Florence,
>
> Regarding your first question the shop is Foundation owned and run but
> hosted by Shopify, an e-commerce provider. [1] The orders are then sent to
> our fulfillment partner, SWAGBOT. [2] We have a staff contractor, Gretchen
> Holtman, who runs the shop for the Wikimedia Foundation. [3]
>
> The email address is responded to by Wikimedia Foundation staff typically
> either Gretchen for regarding issues surrounding the Wikimedia Shop, or
> myself in relation to the merchandise giveaway scheme. [4]
>
> Feel free to contact me off list if there is anything I can help you with.
>
> Seddon
>
> [1] https://www.shopify.co.uk/
> [2] https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/our-fulfillment-company
> [3]
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Fundraising_Operations
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_giveaways
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Is that directly run by Wikimedia Foundation staff or is that run by an
>> independant company "paid" by WMF to manage the shop ?
>>
>> Who is behind the email address [hidden email] ?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Florence
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Ricordisamoa
In reply to this post by Joseph Seddon-6
As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable for
a FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_merchandise#Shopify.3F

Il 21/03/2016 11:28, Joseph Seddon ha scritto:

> Hey Florence,
>
> Regarding your first question the shop is Foundation owned and run but
> hosted by Shopify, an e-commerce provider. [1] The orders are then sent to
> our fulfillment partner, SWAGBOT. [2] We have a staff contractor, Gretchen
> Holtman, who runs the shop for the Wikimedia Foundation. [3]
>
> The email address is responded to by Wikimedia Foundation staff typically
> either Gretchen for regarding issues surrounding the Wikimedia Shop, or
> myself in relation to the merchandise giveaway scheme. [4]
>
> Feel free to contact me off list if there is anything I can help you with.
>
> Seddon
>
> [1] https://www.shopify.co.uk/
> [2] https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/our-fulfillment-company
> [3]
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Fundraising_Operations
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_giveaways
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Is that directly run by Wikimedia Foundation staff or is that run by an
>> independant company "paid" by WMF to manage the shop ?
>>
>> Who is behind the email address [hidden email] ?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Florence
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Marc-Andre
On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable
> for a FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.

While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
intersect very little with our own tech).

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier is
all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good or
even adequate ones.

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Ricordisamoa
Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:

> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable
>> for a FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
>
> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
> intersect very little with our own tech).
>
> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier
> is all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck
> without hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not
> every service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone
> good or even adequate ones.
>
> -- Coren / Marc
>

My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on
the customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required
to browse and purchase?
And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Marc-Andre
On 2016-03-21 8:34 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!

Yes, and no.

The extra control is hypothetically nice, but in practice one-off
services that are different from the rest of the infrastructure (as a
shop would be, like the blog, OTRS, etc) tend to be *extremely*
expensive and difficult to care for, and tend to be the very weakest
points of the system (including privacy and security).

There's a question of lack of specific expertise, of multiplication of
moving parts, and of limited brain share to spread around a limited
operations team.  I think it's wiser and safer to contract those out to
a provider that (a) manages this as their core business and (b) is
responsible for maintenance and security.  (The blog is a very good
example of how much improvement can come as a result of delegating to a
provider that actually has the expertise and resources to run the service).

There are cases - because of our privacy policy or because of how
closely things tie into the rest of our infrastructure - where bringing
in a one-off service is the best thing to do; but even those cases tend
to be inordinately resource-heavy for their relative size so are best
avoided when possible.

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by Joseph Seddon-6
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hey Florence,
>
> Regarding your first question the shop is Foundation owned and run but
> hosted by Shopify, an e-commerce provider. [1] The orders are then sent to
> our fulfillment partner, SWAGBOT. [2]

That it is run by Shopify appears to only be stated on the shipping page:
http://store.wikimedia.org/pages/shipping

https://www.google.com/search?q=shopify+site%3Astore.wikimedia.org

I think it would be appropriate to explicitly & prominently mention this on

https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/terms-of-service
https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/privacy-policy

Especially the Privacy policy, since it says

"The Wikipedia store is operated by third-party service providers,
and, as part of their operations, they may process your information.
Please consult their privacy policies for further information."

And then doesnt say who those third party service providers are.

Here in Indonesia, when I go to https://shopify.com, I am forcibly
sent to https://www.shopify.co.id/ , and when I click on Terms of Use
or Privacy I am sent to 404 pages.

https://www.shopify.co.id/legal/terms
https://www.shopify.co.id/legal/privacy

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by Ricordisamoa
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
>>
>> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>>>
>>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable for a
>>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
>> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
>> intersect very little with our own tech).
>>
>> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier is
>> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
>> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
>> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good or even
>> adequate ones.
>>
>> -- Coren / Marc
>>
>
> My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on the
> customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required to
> browse and purchase?

I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
Shopify specific code for making purchases.
However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.

> And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!

IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.

Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
of use and privacy policy.

If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
What your saying makes sense. I'll take a look into this Jon and get back
to you as soon as I can.

Seddon
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Hey Florence,
>
> Regarding your first question the shop is Foundation owned and run but
> hosted by Shopify, an e-commerce provider. [1] The orders are then sent to
> our fulfillment partner, SWAGBOT. [2]

That it is run by Shopify appears to only be stated on the shipping page:
http://store.wikimedia.org/pages/shipping

https://www.google.com/search?q=shopify+site%3Astore.wikimedia.org

I think it would be appropriate to explicitly & prominently mention this on

https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/terms-of-service
https://store.wikimedia.org/pages/privacy-policy

Especially the Privacy policy, since it says

"The Wikipedia store is operated by third-party service providers,
and, as part of their operations, they may process your information.
Please consult their privacy policies for further information."

And then doesnt say who those third party service providers are.

Here in Indonesia, when I go to https://shopify.com, I am forcibly
sent to https://www.shopify.co.id/ , and when I click on Terms of Use
or Privacy I am sent to 404 pages.

https://www.shopify.co.id/legal/terms
https://www.shopify.co.id/legal/privacy

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully wikimedia
hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've raised.
But moving in-house would require resources for building and maintaining an
ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
movement as I am sure you would agree.

Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc. and
making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and money.
Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need to
keep it as efficient as possible.

As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the frameworks
that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github [1] and
I would encourage you to take a look.

With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is hosted
by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.

Regards

Seddon

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
>>
>> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>>>
>>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable for
a

>>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
>> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
>> intersect very little with our own tech).
>>
>> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier is
>> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
>> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
>> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good or
even
>> adequate ones.
>>
>> -- Coren / Marc
>>
>
> My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on
the
> customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required to
> browse and purchase?

I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
Shopify specific code for making purchases.
However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.

> And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!

IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.

Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
of use and privacy policy.

If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

rupert THURNER-2
How many orders are handled by this shop?

Rupert
On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully wikimedia
> hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've raised.
> But moving in-house would require resources for building and maintaining an
> ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
> setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
> power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> movement as I am sure you would agree.
>
> Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc. and
> making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and money.
> Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need to
> keep it as efficient as possible.
>
> As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the frameworks
> that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github [1] and
> I would encourage you to take a look.
>
> With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
> certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is hosted
> by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
>
> Regards
>
> Seddon
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> >>
> >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> >>>
> >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable for
> a
> >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >>
> >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
> >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
> >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> >>
> >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier is
> >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
> >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good or
> even
> >> adequate ones.
> >>
> >> -- Coren / Marc
> >>
> >
> > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on
> the
> > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required to
> > browse and purchase?
>
> I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
> as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
>
> > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!
>
> IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
>
> Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> of use and privacy policy.
>
> If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Joseph Seddon-6
I don't have numbers of orders to hand but revenue projections for the
store can be seen on Slide 12 here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/WMF_Advancement_and_Fundraising_Tech_quarterly_review_-_Q2_FY2015-16.pdf

FY 15/16 Projections:

Gross Revenue: $74,383.34
Net Revenue: $29,933.74

Regards
Seddon

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 4:41 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How many orders are handled by this shop?
>
> Rupert
> On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully
> wikimedia
> > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've raised.
> > But moving in-house would require resources for building and maintaining
> an
> > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
> > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
> > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> >
> > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc. and
> > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and
> money.
> > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need to
> > keep it as efficient as possible.
> >
> > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the
> frameworks
> > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github [1]
> and
> > I would encourage you to take a look.
> >
> > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
> > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is
> hosted
> > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Seddon
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > >>
> > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable
> for
> > a
> > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
> > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
> > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > >>
> > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier
> is
> > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
> > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good
> or
> > even
> > >> adequate ones.
> > >>
> > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > >>
> > >
> > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on
> > the
> > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required to
> > > browse and purchase?
> >
> > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
> > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> >
> > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!
> >
> > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> >
> > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> > of use and privacy policy.
> >
> > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> >
> > --
> > John Vandenberg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Steinsplitter Wiki
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
Why do we need such a Shop?

(I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)

I agree with other users that the shop schould be hosted on wikimedia servers.

--Steinsplitter

> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:41:46 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?
>
> How many orders are handled by this shop?
>
> Rupert
> On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully wikimedia
> > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've raised.
> > But moving in-house would require resources for building and maintaining an
> > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
> > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
> > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> >
> > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc. and
> > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and money.
> > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need to
> > keep it as efficient as possible.
> >
> > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the frameworks
> > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github [1] and
> > I would encourage you to take a look.
> >
> > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
> > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is hosted
> > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Seddon
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > >>
> > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is acceptable for
> > a
> > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that does
> > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds, that
> > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > >>
> > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external supplier is
> > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
> > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone good or
> > even
> > >> adequate ones.
> > >>
> > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > >>
> > >
> > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run on
> > the
> > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required to
> > > browse and purchase?
> >
> > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
> > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> >
> > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!
> >
> > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> >
> > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> > of use and privacy policy.
> >
> > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> >
> > --
> > John Vandenberg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
     
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Have you considered the cost? It is not free to run a shop. When another
organisation can do it for you for less, it would be not good to have an
own shop on principles only.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 21 March 2016 at 20:39, Steinsplitter Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Why do we need such a Shop?
>
> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the
> shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
>
> I agree with other users that the shop schould be hosted on wikimedia
> servers.
>
> --Steinsplitter
>
> > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:41:46 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?
> >
> > How many orders are handled by this shop?
> >
> > Rupert
> > On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully
> wikimedia
> > > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've
> raised.
> > > But moving in-house would require resources for building and
> maintaining an
> > > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
> > > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
> > > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> > > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> > >
> > > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> > > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc.
> and
> > > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and
> money.
> > > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> > > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need
> to
> > > keep it as efficient as possible.
> > >
> > > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the
> frameworks
> > > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github
> [1] and
> > > I would encourage you to take a look.
> > >
> > > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> > > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
> > > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is
> hosted
> > > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Seddon
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is
> acceptable for
> > > a
> > > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that
> does
> > > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds,
> that
> > > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external
> supplier is
> > > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
> > > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> > > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone
> good or
> > > even
> > > >> adequate ones.
> > > >>
> > > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run
> on
> > > the
> > > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required
> to
> > > > browse and purchase?
> > >
> > > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> > > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
> > > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> > >
> > > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!
> > >
> > > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> > >
> > > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> > > of use and privacy policy.
> > >
> > > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> > > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> > > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> > > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Vandenberg
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by Steinsplitter Wiki
Steinsplitter,

There has been and continues to be a long standing desire from volunteers
and donors to get merchandise whether through events, competitions,
giveaways or purchasing. The fact we get 1000+ orders or so a year (an
educated guess) shows the idea of the store has merits. It might not be for
everyone but if it serves those who use it and it's self sufficient then I
don't see many negatives of having one. Especially if we ensure there are
multiple other avenues for users to get such merchandise, especially to
ensure that cost is not a limiting factor within our movement. It would be
great if the store could fund all such merchandise giveaways.

Seddon

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why do we need such a Shop?
>
> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the
> shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
>
> I agree with other users that the shop schould be hosted on wikimedia
> servers.
>
> --Steinsplitter
>
> > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:41:46 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?
> >
> > How many orders are handled by this shop?
> >
> > Rupert
> > On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully
> wikimedia
> > > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've
> raised.
> > > But moving in-house would require resources for building and
> maintaining an
> > > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify. The
> > > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of people
> > > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> > > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> > >
> > > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> > > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc.
> and
> > > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and
> money.
> > > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> > > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need
> to
> > > keep it as efficient as possible.
> > >
> > > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the
> frameworks
> > > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github
> [1] and
> > > I would encourage you to take a look.
> > >
> > > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> > > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and I
> > > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is
> hosted
> > > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Seddon
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is
> acceptable for
> > > a
> > > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that
> does
> > > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds,
> that
> > > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external
> supplier is
> > > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck without
> > > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> > > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone
> good or
> > > even
> > > >> adequate ones.
> > > >>
> > > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is run
> on
> > > the
> > > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually required
> to
> > > > browse and purchase?
> > >
> > > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> > > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use tomorrow,
> > > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> > >
> > > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control too!
> > >
> > > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> > >
> > > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> > > of use and privacy policy.
> > >
> > > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> > > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> > > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> > > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Vandenberg
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Vi to
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Above all hosting a shop means:
*production on demand: no "risks" but products become more expensive and
slow to deliver
*warehousing: means immobilizing a certain amount of money at the risk to
accumulate unsold items.
IMHO an internal shop would be justified by turnover at least 10 times
greater than Joseph's estimate in following email.

Vito

2016-03-21 20:43 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> Have you considered the cost? It is not free to run a shop. When another
> organisation can do it for you for less, it would be not good to have an
> own shop on principles only.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 21 March 2016 at 20:39, Steinsplitter Wiki <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Why do we need such a Shop?
> >
> > (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the
> > shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
> >
> > I agree with other users that the shop schould be hosted on wikimedia
> > servers.
> >
> > --Steinsplitter
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:41:46 +0100
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?
> > >
> > > How many orders are handled by this shop?
> > >
> > > Rupert
> > > On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully
> > wikimedia
> > > > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've
> > raised.
> > > > But moving in-house would require resources for building and
> > maintaining an
> > > > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify.
> The
> > > > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of
> people
> > > > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in the
> > > > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> > > >
> > > > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it well,
> > > > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc. etc.
> > and
> > > > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time and
> > money.
> > > > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third party
> > > > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we need
> > to
> > > > keep it as efficient as possible.
> > > >
> > > > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the
> > frameworks
> > > > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github
> > [1] and
> > > > I would encourage you to take a look.
> > > >
> > > > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10 website
> > > > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious and
> I
> > > > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is
> > hosted
> > > > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Seddon
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is
> > acceptable for
> > > > a
> > > > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that
> > does
> > > > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go worlds,
> > that
> > > > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external
> > supplier is
> > > > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck
> without
> > > > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not every
> > > > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone
> > good or
> > > > even
> > > > >> adequate ones.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is
> run
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually
> required
> > to
> > > > > browse and purchase?
> > > >
> > > > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries and
> > > > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > > > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > > > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use
> tomorrow,
> > > > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> > > >
> > > > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control
> too!
> > > >
> > > > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > > > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> > > >
> > > > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > > > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our terms
> > > > of use and privacy policy.
> > > >
> > > > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or can't
> > > > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be hosted
> > > > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service provider
> > > > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > John Vandenberg
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

Lisa Gruwell
Adding my thoughts to build upon what Seddon has already said:

The store is not the most mission critical work that we do, but it is
working well. It is good to have people wearing Wikipedia t-shirts out
there and to meet the need of the people who want to purchase Wikimedia
merch.   It is also a very nice thing to be able to thank an editor
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_giveaways> with a Wikipedia
coffee mug from time to time. The store is a lean operation and is self
sufficient.  And the profits from the store fund the give away program, so
the more we sell the more we give away.

The team who works on this has done a very good job of keeping the costs
low, producing products people want, and executing the operational side
(they get people the products they ordered on time).  We don't have large
quantities of merch ringing up high warehouse costs.  The merch is stored
in Springfield, Missouri (not San Francisco) where the rent is low.
Between sales and the giveaway program, the inventory moves pretty quickly.

If we had to build out our own sales platform in order to do this, it
probably would not be worth it.  As it is, the shop is meeting a expressed
need, turning a profit, and allowing us to give merch away.  I think the
team has done a very good job with the shop this year.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Above all hosting a shop means:
> *production on demand: no "risks" but products become more expensive and
> slow to deliver
> *warehousing: means immobilizing a certain amount of money at the risk to
> accumulate unsold items.
> IMHO an internal shop would be justified by turnover at least 10 times
> greater than Joseph's estimate in following email.
>
> Vito
>
> 2016-03-21 20:43 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Have you considered the cost? It is not free to run a shop. When another
> > organisation can do it for you for less, it would be not good to have an
> > own shop on principles only.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 21 March 2016 at 20:39, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Why do we need such a Shop?
> > >
> > > (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine,
> the
> > > shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
> > >
> > > I agree with other users that the shop schould be hosted on wikimedia
> > > servers.
> > >
> > > --Steinsplitter
> > >
> > > > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:41:46 +0100
> > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > To: [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?
> > > >
> > > > How many orders are handled by this shop?
> > > >
> > > > Rupert
> > > > On Mar 21, 2016 17:32, "Joseph Seddon" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In an ideal world then I would definitely be pushing for a fully
> > > wikimedia
> > > > > hosted online shop. I completely agree with the principles you've
> > > raised.
> > > > > But moving in-house would require resources for building and
> > > maintaining an
> > > > > ecommerce workflow that I don't think we collectively can justify.
> > The
> > > > > setup and maintenance of any solution would require a degree of
> > people
> > > > > power that I personally think could be spent better elsewhere in
> the
> > > > > movement as I am sure you would agree.
> > > > >
> > > > > Throwing together an e-commerce site can be easy. But doing it
> well,
> > > > > ensuring you are PCI compliant, ensuring its stable, secure etc.
> etc.
> > > and
> > > > > making it user friendly both front and back end. That takes time
> and
> > > money.
> > > > > Even if we did all that we would still in end up using a third
> party
> > > > > payment gateway. To ensure the shop is viable and not a drain we
> need
> > > to
> > > > > keep it as efficient as possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > As Marc said Shopify may not be completely FLOSS but many of the
> > > frameworks
> > > > > that Shopify use in their hosted service are on available on Github
> > > [1] and
> > > > > I would encourage you to take a look.
> > > > >
> > > > > With regards to the URL, I as a customer would find a top 10
> website
> > > > > sending me to a third party URL for their shop highly suspicious
> and
> > I
> > > > > certainly could treat it with suspicion. Making it clear that it is
> > > hosted
> > > > > by shopify I think would at least improve the situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Seddon
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ricordisamoa
> > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Il 21/03/2016 13:14, Marc A. Pelletier ha scritto:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On 2016-03-21 8:03 AM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> As in [1] I'd like to know whether the use of Shopify is
> > > acceptable for
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>> FOSS-friendly organization. Thanks in advance.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> While Shopify isn't FLOSS-only, they're a fairly okay place that
> > > does
> > > > > >> contribute to FLOSS themselves (mostly in the Ruby and Go
> worlds,
> > > that
> > > > > >> intersect very little with our own tech).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every external
> > > supplier is
> > > > > >> all-FLOSS.  For one, the movement would be pretty much stuck
> > without
> > > > > >> hardware, networking gear, and power at the very least.  Not
> every
> > > > > >> service/provider even *have* pure-FLOSS alternative - let alone
> > > good or
> > > > > even
> > > > > >> adequate ones.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -- Coren / Marc
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My concern was about the (likely proprietary) JavaScript that is
> > run
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > customers' devices, but it turns out that it isn't actually
> > required
> > > to
> > > > > > browse and purchase?
> > > > >
> > > > > I very quickly looked, and it appears to be mostly open libraries
> and
> > > > > Shopify specific code for making purchases.
> > > > > However any amount of tracking could be hidden somewhere in their
> > > > > JavaScript, and an audit today doesnt mean it is safe to use
> > tomorrow,
> > > > > as the source code is not publicly reviewed before being deployed.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And yes, it'd be nice if the server side was under WMF's control
> > too!
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO it is more important that any service on the "wikimedia.org"
> > > > > domain (and others owned by WMF) is free software.
> > > > >
> > > > > Outsourcing the service provision is fine, provided the software is
> > > > > free software and the delegated service provider abides by our
> terms
> > > > > of use and privacy policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we need to run non-free services, that isnt free software or
> can't
> > > > > comply with our terms of use and privacy policy, it should be
> hosted
> > > > > on a different domain, preferrably the domain of the service
> provider
> > > > > so that it is abundantly clear who the transaction is really with.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > John Vandenberg
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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> > >
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

K. Peachey-2
In reply to this post by Marc-Andre
On 21 March 2016 at 22:47, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The extra control is hypothetically nice, but in practice one-off services
> that are different from the rest of the infrastructure (as a shop would be,
> like the blog, OTRS, etc) tend to be *extremely* expensive and difficult to
> care for, and tend to be the very weakest points of the system (including
> privacy and security).
>
> Those are only limited by the choice of the foundation.

If they wanted someone with OTRS/wordpress/cisco ios/SmartTeam/etc skills,
they would hire appropriately so the operations team was equipped with the
staff and skills needed.

It's like running a shop without a retail manager, It could work, but would
work a lot better if it was staffed with people with the appropriate
skillsets.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

James Alexander-4
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 6:57 PM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21 March 2016 at 22:47, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The extra control is hypothetically nice, but in practice one-off
> services
> > that are different from the rest of the infrastructure (as a shop would
> be,
> > like the blog, OTRS, etc) tend to be *extremely* expensive and difficult
> to
> > care for, and tend to be the very weakest points of the system (including
> > privacy and security).
> >
> > Those are only limited by the choice of the foundation.
>
> If they wanted someone with OTRS/wordpress/cisco ios/SmartTeam/etc skills,
> they would hire appropriately so the operations team was equipped with the
> staff and skills needed.
>
> It's like running a shop without a retail manager, It could work, but would
> work a lot better if it was staffed with people with the appropriate
> skillsets.


Totally but it's all a balancing act even if you assume we have the
resources. To do this correctly you'd need at least one person on the tech
side who understand the platform and payments, preferably a couple who
could back them up if need be and who can support different parts/make sure
they're secure/code reviewed/updated etc + the folks on the front end (the
'shop  manager(s)' organizing the actual design/fulfillment/etc). The more
you add the more you need to be making to justify it and as someone who did
this math a fair bit when I was first setting up the shop we'd need quite a
bit more in terms of orders before we were making enough to cover something
in house and that was being relatively conservative in costing assuming we
would only have to pay for 30-40% of some people etc.

It also gets to the "trade off" question. That is obviously a discussion
that is more open and so I won't pretend to have the right answer but I
think at our current budget basically every new hire/project basically has
to have a trade off the hire that won't be backfilled or the project that
is canceled etc. I imagine we all can think of projects that we think are
more or less important but we don't necessarily think of the 'same'
projects which makes that trade off discussion difficult (but important
since we can't just continue to expand the budget forever).

James Alexander
Manager
Trust & Safety
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
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