[Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

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[Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.

No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
<https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous>
only
allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.

What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
suspended?

If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
iDEAL and IBAN
<http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).

One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
transfer...

Best,

Lodewijk
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Moreover, because fundraising reports are now so stingy, we can't even
know the (per-country) effects of such decisions (cc fundraiser@), hence
public accountability is impossible.
*
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fundraising/2013-14_Report&diff=10307365&oldid=10265366
*
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2012/Report#Totals_by_country

Nemo

Lodewijk, 17/11/2014 20:28:

> A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
> the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
> the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
> been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
>
> No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
> common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> <https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous>
> only
> allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
> you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
>
> What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
> swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
> required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
> suspended?
>
> If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
> donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
> local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
> iDEAL and IBAN
> <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).
>
> One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
> get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
> this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
> kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
> transfer...
>
> Best,

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Patricia Pena
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Hi Lodewijk,

Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance
mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank
transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
Services team.

We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster
and easier way.

Thanks!
Pats

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because
> the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
> the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have
> been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
>
> No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
> common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers
> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> <
> https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous
> >
> only
> allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
> you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
>
> What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
> swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
> required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
> suspended?
>
> If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
> donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
> local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
> iDEAL and IBAN
> <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).
>
> One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite
> get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
> this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all
> kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
> transfer...
>
> Best,
>
> Lodewijk
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--

Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
Wikimedia Foundation
office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
[hidden email]

*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
<https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
Hi Patricia,

Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?

Best,
Lodewijk

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Lodewijk,
>
> Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into maintenance
> mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
> the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
> option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline bank
> transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
> Services team.
>
> We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
> will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
> which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much faster
> and easier way.
>
> Thanks!
> Pats
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
> because
> > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At
> > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
> have
> > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
> >
> > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
> > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
> refers
> > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> (using
> > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > <
> >
> https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous
> > >
> > only
> > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends
> > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
> >
> > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
> > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
> > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily
> > suspended?
> >
> > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the
> > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
> > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
> > iDEAL and IBAN
> > <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).
> >
> > One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
> quite
> > get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
> > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
> all
> > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
> > transfer...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Lodewijk
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
> Wikimedia Foundation
> office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
> cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
> fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
> [hidden email]
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Walter Vermeir-2
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:

> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page

Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
expensive.

There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.

The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
fair chunk of the globe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption

Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ± 337 million Europeans , people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
additional expenses.

Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.


The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.

But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
total other payment systems.

A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.

But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
to be willing to make an donation.

Walter



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[Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Liam Wyatt
This strikes me as yet another example of a WMF department forgetting
to inform relevant stakeholders as soon as is appropriate, when decisions
are made...

In just the last few days, on this mailing list alone, there have been
controversies on:
- not telling chapters' treasurers that a team had been hired and a
financial auditing process initiated (the Finance Fellows), until after it
had already begun.
- Not informing the Russians that their country's donations were no longer
accepted, leaving them to fend off angry media/donors.
- Not informing the Dutch that donations in their country's most popular
online money-transfer system was being temporarily stopped.

None of these things needed to be controversial or a problem if they'd been
explained to the relevant people up-front.
None of them required advanced notice if that was not possible for
operational reasons (although it would have been nice).
All of them are the WMF's preogative to make those decisions.

But, crucially, ALL of them have people in the Wikimedia movement who are
affected by the decision. According to the complaints raised on this list,
None of those affected people were informed as soon as reasonably possible.
Furthermore their initial, private, enquiries produced
apparently-unsatisfactory answers, leading to them feeling forced to raise
their concerns here.

All of this chips-away at community good-will, makes the WMF feel
under-siege (and I do acknowledge my own contribution to that feeling by
this email, for which I apologise), and creates a disjointed public-face
when press/donors/readers ask community members "what's happening with
xyz?" and the community-member forced to reply "this is the first I've
heard about it".

To help avoid similar things happening in the future, can I propose that
any time a public-facing decision is being made by a WMF team, the question
"who in the community is likely to be affected by this decision?" be asked
as a standard procedure. Then take the time to proactively inform those
people. (Some WMF teams do this really well already, I want
to acknowledge!) In the examples above that would be the treasurers' list,
the Russian media contacts, and the Dutch OTRS team. Ideally those people
could be involved/consulted in the decision itself (but that's not always
possible) and they will be able to help respond to the issue in the
appropriate way.
We're all on the same team...


--
wittylama.com
Peace, love & metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Kim Bruning
In reply to this post by Walter Vermeir-2

To amplify:

Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
default, baseline way to make payments at all.

After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.

If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.

Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
accounts.

Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.

iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.

sincerely,
        Kim



On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:

> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
>
> > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using
> > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
>
> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
> expensive.
>
> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
>
> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> fair chunk of the globe.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
>
> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> additional expenses.
>
> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
>
>
> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
>
> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> total other payment systems.
>
> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
>
> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
> to be willing to make an donation.
>
> Walter
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
speculation.

I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
transfer that cannot be disclosed...

Best,
Lodewijk

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> To amplify:
>
> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
> default, baseline way to make payments at all.
>
> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
>
> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
>
> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
> accounts.
>
> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
>
> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> requirement.
>
> sincerely,
>         Kim
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> >
> > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> (using
> > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> >
> > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
> > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
> > expensive.
> >
> > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> >
> > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> > fair chunk of the globe.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> >
> > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
> > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > additional expenses.
> >
> > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
> > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
> > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> >
> >
> > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> >
> > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> > total other payment systems.
> >
> > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
> > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
> > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
> >
> > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
> > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
> > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
> > to be willing to make an donation.
> >
> > Walter
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Chris Keating-2
Interestingly I've just received a fundraising email localised to the UK
which doesn't offer any opportunity to give by direct debit. This is the
main form of regular giving in the UK, and the alternative that is offered
(regular gifts via credit card) is generally deprecated as it gives the
donor far less control over their money.

I know the  WMF used to have a solution to handle more payment methods - I
wonder if that's been discontinued for reasons of cost/simplicity?

(The email also doesn't appear to include any of the learning about the
right ask amounts to ask for monthly gifts in the UK from the 2011 campaign
but that might be my fault for not publishing those results ;) )
On 22 Nov 2014 07:42, "Lodewijk" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> speculation.
>
> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > To amplify:
> >
> > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
> > default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> >
> > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
> > account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
> > to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> >
> > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
> >
> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
> > accounts.
> >
> > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> >
> > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> > requirement.
> >
> > sincerely,
> >         Kim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> > >
> > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > (using
> > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > >
> > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> > > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
> > > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
> and
> > > expensive.
> > >
> > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> > >
> > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> > > fair chunk of the globe.
> > >
> > >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > >
> > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
> > > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > > additional expenses.
> > >
> > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
> > > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
> > > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> > >
> > >
> > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> > >
> > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> > > total other payment systems.
> > >
> > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
> > > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
> cheque
> > > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
> > >
> > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
> > > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
> > > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
> good
> > > to be willing to make an donation.
> > >
> > > Walter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Kim Bruning
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Just following up,

Has WMNL now received the sought information?

sincerely,
        Kim Bruning


On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:

> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose
> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> speculation.
>
> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > To amplify:
> >
> > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
> > default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> >
> > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
> > account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted
> > to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> >
> > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
> >
> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal
> > accounts.
> >
> > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> >
> > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> > requirement.
> >
> > sincerely,
> >         Kim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> > >
> > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > (using
> > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > >
> > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> > > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to
> > > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and
> > > expensive.
> > >
> > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> > >
> > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> > > fair chunk of the globe.
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > >
> > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people
> > > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > > additional expenses.
> > >
> > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to
> > > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not
> > > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> > >
> > >
> > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> > >
> > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> > > total other payment systems.
> > >
> > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using
> > > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque
> > > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
> > >
> > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when
> > > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made
> > > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good
> > > to be willing to make an donation.
> > >
> > > Walter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
To clarify: I was looking for information from my capacity as a volunteer -
I don't know if WMNL did or did not receive any information whatsoever.

I can only say that I did not receive a satisfying answer - but that should
be no surprise.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just following up,
>
> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
>
> sincerely,
>         Kim Bruning
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
> > It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
> > sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
> > am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
> > WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
> choose
> > not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
> > Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
> > allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> > speculation.
> >
> > I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
> > few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
> > canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
> > there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> > transfer that cannot be disclosed...
> >
> > Best,
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > To amplify:
> > >
> > > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> > > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
> > > default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> > >
> > > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
> > > account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
> converted
> > > to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> > >
> > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
> IBAN.
> > >
> > > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
> paypal
> > > accounts.
> > >
> > > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> > >
> > > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> > > requirement.
> > >
> > > sincerely,
> > >         Kim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> > > >
> > > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > > (using
> > > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > > >
> > > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> > > > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
> to
> > > > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
> and
> > > > expensive.
> > > >
> > > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > > > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> > > >
> > > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> > > > fair chunk of the globe.
> > > >
> > > >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > > >
> > > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
> people
> > > > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > > > additional expenses.
> > > >
> > > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
> to
> > > > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
> not
> > > > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > > > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> > > >
> > > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> > > > total other payment systems.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
> using
> > > > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> > > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
> cheque
> > > > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
> Extinct.
> > > >
> > > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
> when
> > > > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
> made
> > > > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
> good
> > > > to be willing to make an donation.
> > > >
> > > > Walter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Kim Bruning
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
chapters page.

Rupert
On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just following up,
>
> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
>
> sincerely,
>         Kim Bruning
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
> > It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
> > sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
> > am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
> > WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
> choose
> > not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
> > Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
> > allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> > speculation.
> >
> > I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
> > few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
> > canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
> > there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> > transfer that cannot be disclosed...
> >
> > Best,
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > To amplify:
> > >
> > > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> > > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
> > > default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> > >
> > > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
> > > account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
> converted
> > > to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> > >
> > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
> IBAN.
> > >
> > > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
> paypal
> > > accounts.
> > >
> > > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> > >
> > > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> > > requirement.
> > >
> > > sincerely,
> > >         Kim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > > > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> > > >
> > > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > > (using
> > > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > > >
> > > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> > > > from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
> to
> > > > an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
> and
> > > > expensive.
> > > >
> > > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > > > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> > > >
> > > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> > > > fair chunk of the globe.
> > > >
> > > >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > > >
> > > > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
> people
> > > > can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > > > additional expenses.
> > > >
> > > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
> to
> > > > an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
> not
> > > > free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > > > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> > > >
> > > > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> > > > total other payment systems.
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
> using
> > > > cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> > > > dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
> cheque
> > > > since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
> Extinct.
> > > >
> > > > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
> when
> > > > you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
> made
> > > > for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
> good
> > > > to be willing to make an donation.
> > > >
> > > > Walter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Charles Andrès-2
I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..




> Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
> Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
> chapters page.
>
> Rupert
> On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Just following up,
>>
>> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
>>
>> sincerely,
>>        Kim Bruning
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
>>> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100%
>>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I
>>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the
>>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
>> choose
>>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as
>>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
>>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
>>> speculation.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a
>>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed
>>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
>>> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
>>> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Lodewijk
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To amplify:
>>>>
>>>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
>>>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard,
>>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all.
>>>>
>>>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN)
>>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
>> converted
>>>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
>> IBAN.
>>>>
>>>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
>> paypal
>>>> accounts.
>>>>
>>>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
>>>>
>>>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
>>>> requirement.
>>>>
>>>> sincerely,
>>>>        Kim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
>>>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
>>>>>
>>>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
>>>> (using
>>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
>>>>>
>>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
>>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
>> to
>>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
>> and
>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
>>>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
>>>>>
>>>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
>>>>> fair chunk of the globe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
>>>>>
>>>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
>> people
>>>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
>>>>> additional expenses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
>> to
>>>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
>> not
>>>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
>>>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
>>>>> total other payment systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
>> using
>>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
>>>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
>> cheque
>>>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
>> Extinct.
>>>>>
>>>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
>> when
>>>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
>> made
>>>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
>> good
>>>>> to be willing to make an donation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> --
>> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
>> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
>> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Patricia Pena
All,

The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
banners in Switzerland.

If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.

Thanks,
Pats


On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
> page…..
>
>
> > Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
> >
> > The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
> > Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
> > chapters page.
> >
> > Rupert
> > On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following up,
> >>
> >> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
> >>
> >> sincerely,
> >>        Kim Bruning
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
> >>> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
> 100%
> >>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
> - I
> >>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
> the
> >>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
> >> choose
> >>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and
> as
> >>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being
> >>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> >>> speculation.
> >>>
> >>> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
> was a
> >>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
> fed
> >>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and
> >>> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> >>> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Lodewijk
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To amplify:
> >>>>
> >>>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> >>>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
> standard,
> >>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
> (IBAN)
> >>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
> >> converted
> >>>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
> >> IBAN.
> >>>>
> >>>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
> >> paypal
> >>>> accounts.
> >>>>
> >>>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> >>>>
> >>>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> >>>> requirement.
> >>>>
> >>>> sincerely,
> >>>>        Kim
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> >>>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> >>>> (using
> >>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different
> >>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
> >> to
> >>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
> >> and
> >>>>> expensive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> >>>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a
> >>>>> fair chunk of the globe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
> >> people
> >>>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> >>>>> additional expenses.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
> >> to
> >>>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
> >> not
> >>>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> >>>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to
> >>>>> total other payment systems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
> >> using
> >>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my
> >>>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
> >> cheque
> >>>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
> >> Extinct.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
> >> when
> >>>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
> >> made
> >>>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
> >> good
> >>>>> to be willing to make an donation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Walter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> --
> >> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> >> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
> >> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--

Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
Wikimedia Foundation
office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
[hidden email]

*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
<https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
Hi Pats,

maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is
actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid -
I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)

Best,
Lodewijk

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All,
>
> The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
> banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
> banners in Switzerland.
>
> If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.
>
> Thanks,
> Pats
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
> > page…..
> >
> >
> > > Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
> > > Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
> > > chapters page.
> > >
> > > Rupert
> > > On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Just following up,
> > >>
> > >> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
> > >>
> > >> sincerely,
> > >>        Kim Bruning
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
> > >>> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
> > 100%
> > >>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
> > - I
> > >>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
> > the
> > >>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
> > >> choose
> > >>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
> and
> > as
> > >>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
> being
> > >>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
> > >>> speculation.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
> > was a
> > >>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
> > fed
> > >>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
> and
> > >>> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
> > >>> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
> > >>>
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Lodewijk
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To amplify:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
> > >>>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
> > standard,
> > >>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
> > (IBAN)
> > >>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
> > >> converted
> > >>>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
> > >> IBAN.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
> > >> paypal
> > >>>> accounts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
> > >>>> requirement.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> sincerely,
> > >>>>        Kim
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> > >>>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
> transfer
> > >>>> (using
> > >>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
> different
> > >>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
> > >> to
> > >>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
> complex
> > >> and
> > >>>>> expensive.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
> > >>>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
> a
> > >>>>> fair chunk of the globe.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
> > >> people
> > >>>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
> > >>>>> additional expenses.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
> payments
> > >> to
> > >>>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
> > >> not
> > >>>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
> > >>>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
> card.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
> to
> > >>>>> total other payment systems.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
> > >> using
> > >>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember
> my
> > >>>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
> > >> cheque
> > >>>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
> > >> Extinct.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
> > >> when
> > >>>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
> > >> made
> > >>>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
> > >> good
> > >>>>> to be willing to make an donation.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Walter
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment]
> > >> gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key  FEF9DD72
> > >> 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A  01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
> Wikimedia Foundation
> office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
> cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
> fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
> [hidden email]
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Frédéric Schütz
On 28/11/14 23:49, Lodewijk wrote:

> maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is
> actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid -
> I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)

Indeed, I think Patricia missed the point of Rupert and Charles' emails.
I have just tested myself from a computer on a Swiss IP address, opening
20 times the donation page, I get about half of the time the WM CH
landing page, and the other half the WMF landing page.

There is nothing WM CH can do, it is a problem with the redirection link
on the WMF servers -- and it is obviously pretty annoying for us (WM
CH). So far, we haven't heard anything from the WMF after Rupert first
spotted the problem (thanks !).

Frédéric

> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising
>> banners and payment systems implementation.  WMF is not running fundraising
>> banners in Switzerland.
>>
>> If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pats
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF
>>> page…..
>>>
>>>
>>>> Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> a
>>> écrit :
>>>>
>>>> The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in
>>>> Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the
>>>> chapters page.
>>>>
>>>> Rupert
>>>> On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just following up,
>>>>>
>>>>> Has WMNL now received the sought information?
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>        Kim Bruning
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
>>>>>> It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
>>> 100%
>>>>>> sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
>>> - I
>>>>>> am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
>>> the
>>>>>> WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
>>>>> choose
>>>>>> not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
>> and
>>> as
>>>>>> Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
>> being
>>>>>> allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all
>>>>>> speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
>>> was a
>>>>>> few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
>>> fed
>>>>>> canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
>> and
>>>>>> there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank
>>>>>> transfer that cannot be disclosed...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Lodewijk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To amplify:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires
>>>>>>> electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
>>> standard,
>>>>>>> default, baseline way to make payments at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
>>> (IBAN)
>>>>>>> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
>>>>> converted
>>>>>>> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
>>>>> IBAN.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
>>>>> paypal
>>>>>>> accounts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline
>>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>        Kim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
>> transfer
>>>>>>> (using
>>>>>>>>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
>> different
>>>>>>>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
>> complex
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has
>>>>>>>> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
>> a
>>>>>>>> fair chunk of the globe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without
>>>>>>>> additional expenses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
>> payments
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards.
>>>>>>>> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
>> to
>>>>>>>> total other payment systems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember
>> my
>>>>>>>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
>>>>> cheque
>>>>>>>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
>>>>> Extinct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
>>>>> made
>>>>>>>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> to be willing to make an donation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
>> cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
>> fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
>> [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Garfield Byrd
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Lodewijk,

IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level
of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the
website.

I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has
improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number.

Regards,

Garfield

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Patricia,
>
> Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
> understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
> the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lodewijk,
> >
> > Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
> maintenance
> > mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
> > the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
> > option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
> bank
> > transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
> > Services team.
> >
> > We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and there
> > will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few months,
> > which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
> faster
> > and easier way.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Pats
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
> > because
> > > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
> At
> > > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there
> > have
> > > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
> > >
> > > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most
> > > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
> > refers
> > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > (using
> > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous
> > > >
> > > only
> > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
> sends
> > > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
> > >
> > > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
> > > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
> > > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
> temporarily
> > > suspended?
> > >
> > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
> the
> > > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the
> > > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both
> > > iDEAL and IBAN
> > > <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).
> > >
> > > One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
> > quite
> > > get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that
> > > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through
> > all
> > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank
> > > transfer...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Lodewijk
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
> > cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
> > fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the
> > sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> > <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Garfield Byrd
Chief of Finance and Administration
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext 6787
415.882.0495 (fax)
www.wikimediafoundation.org

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!

*https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Lodewijk
Hi Garfield,

Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
robust enough for that. I know that all charities in the Netherlands post
this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out
and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't
fix it themselves? (There is little relevancy of security to 'IBAN' itself
of course, which is merely a bank account number. I'm assuming you're
referring to what people can do using that number to get access in the
bank).

Anyway, best of luck with fixing the underlying problem!

Best,
Lodewijk

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:13 AM, Garfield Byrd <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lodewijk,
>
> IBAN and bank account information is sent out upon request due to the level
> of attempted bank fraud when the account information was posted on the
> website.
>
> I can review with our bank to see if IBAN security and fraud protection has
> improved so that we can publicly post our IBAN number.
>
> Regards,
>
> Garfield
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Patricia,
> >
> > Thanks for telling that the iDEAL will be back soon. I don't quite
> > understand from your answer why you add the increased hurdle of emailing
> > the team for the IBAN though. Am I overlooking something?
> >
> > Best,
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Patricia Pena <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Lodewijk,
> > >
> > > Currently IDEAL is temporarily down on our pages (it went into
> > maintenance
> > > mode after our annual campaign), but should be back up soon :)  We know
> > > the importance of this method for Dutch donors and have supported this
> > > option since we started fundraising in the NL. We also support offline
> > bank
> > > transfer (IBAN) and donors can get the account number with our Donor
> > > Services team.
> > >
> > > We had an extremely successful Fundraising campaign this year, and
> there
> > > will be some great mobile optimization coming up in the next few
> months,
> > > which will allow mobile donors to complete their donations in a much
> > faster
> > > and easier way.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Pats
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Lodewijk <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise,
> > > because
> > > > the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this.
> > At
> > > > the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then,
> there
> > > have
> > > > been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
> > > >
> > > > No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the
> most
> > > > common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply
> > > refers
> > > > you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
> > > (using
> > > > an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous
> > > > >
> > > > only
> > > > allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply
> > sends
> > > > you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
> > > >
> > > > What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal
> > > > swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer
> > > > required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get
> > temporarily
> > > > suspended?
> > > >
> > > > If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send
> > the
> > > > donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in
> the
> > > > local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers
> both
> > > > iDEAL and IBAN
> > > > <http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland>).
> > > >
> > > > One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't
> > > quite
> > > > get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and
> that
> > > > this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go
> through
> > > all
> > > > kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip
> bank
> > > > transfer...
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Lodewijk
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Pats Pena | Sr. Manager, Global Operations
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > office +1 (415) 839 6885 x6764
> > > cell:   +1 (415) 816 3349
> > > fax: +1 (415) 284 9511
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> > the
> > > sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> > > <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Garfield Byrd
> Chief of Finance and Administration
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 415.839.6885 ext 6787
> 415.882.0495 (fax)
> www.wikimediafoundation.org
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
>
> *https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

Michael Snow-5
On 11/29/2014 1:05 AM, Lodewijk wrote:

> Hi Garfield,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. It's surprising to me that posting a bank
> account number could lead to fraud - the bank systems are supposed to be
> robust enough for that. I know that all charities in the Netherlands post
> this number on their website - maybe it could be worth while to reach out
> and see if switching banks might improve the security, if Citibank didn't
> fix it themselves? (There is little relevancy of security to 'IBAN' itself
> of course, which is merely a bank account number. I'm assuming you're
> referring to what people can do using that number to get access in the
> bank).
One avenue for fraud that's facilitated by posting account numbers is
small payment fraud, usually involving stolen credit cards. The basic
technique is that when people illegally buy credit card numbers in large
volumes, since they normally don't possess an actual card, they commonly
test the validity of the card information by making very small online
payments or donations to a known account. If the transaction goes
through, they know the card number can be "safely" used for larger-scale
fraud. Meanwhile, the small donations will invariably be backed out of
the system, whether by the fraudsters themselves or by the financial
institutions cleaning up later when the fraud is detected.

I don't know if that's the specific reason for the decision here, but I
know the fundraising team has dealt with fraud of this type in the past,
and there may be other issues as well. Ultimately it may not directly
threaten the security of our donors or the funds they contribute, but it
does create costs to the organization when it has to identify and review
a significant amount of fraudulent activity. Also, in financial circles
becoming a target for fraud or money laundering, even inadvertently,
could affect our reputation and the willingness of other organizations
to work with us.

As for our own difficulties around communications here, I suspect on all
sides we don't fully appreciate the challenges involved when trying to
merge financial cultures in a global sense. A system may provide
relatively open access to credit while treating bank information as
highly sensitive (as the US mostly does), or it may be more open with
bank information while being much more restrictive about credit (as some
European countries do). Each system has its security practices tailored
to facilitating typical transaction flows within the system. The
underlying assumptions may not work well across systems and may hinder
the ability to establish smooth connections between the two sides. I
certainly don't claim that the American system is necessarily superior,
but in the past when we've considered in which jurisdiction the
Wikimedia Foundation should base its operations, I think the financial
regime has been a secondary consideration, relative to other priorities.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why is bank transfer no longer possible?

MZMcBride-2
Wikimedia always accepts donations. If the Wikimedia Foundation can't
figure out a way to easily accept monetary donations from Dutch
Wikimedians, why not simply focus efforts on non-monetary donations?
Edits and other wiki contributions are far more valuable, in my opinion.
Wikimedia Nederland seems to already be doing a lot of great work
encouraging these types of contributions (e.g., Wiki Loves [X]). :-)

For the past few years I've seen it as fairly low-hanging fruit to create
a tongue-in-cheek "don't donate to Wikipedia" or "donate time instead" or
similar campaign. Or even register "DonateToWikipedia.org" and send
visitors to the edit form of an article that needs love. When people ask
me in real-life about donating to Wikipedia (nobody knows what Wikimedia
is), I typically suggest making a few edits instead of donating money
directly. I don't think the Wikimedia Foundation really needs the money
and I think volunteer time is worth significantly more.

MZMcBride



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