[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

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[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hi all,

Sad news.
The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
situation as it looks now.

*Background*
Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
with photos of the local cultural heritage.

Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.



*What is the situation?*
* The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
the month September.
* The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest
in Italy and needs a banner as well.

As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.

Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.

This is what I would call a devastating effect.

And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
* They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
years.
* They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
* And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month, but
it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.

This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
was possible to move it for the second country.

This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
The Italian team does a great job this year.


*My conclusion*
The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
wrong assumption somehow?

But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This is
sad, very sad.


Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
successful contest.

Greetings,

Romaine



PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

attolippip
Sad news indeed.
Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?

Best regards,
antanana
ED of Wikimedia Ukraine

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
> no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>
>
>
> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
> is sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Pine W
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hi Lisa,

This is kind of confusing. Can you explain why Fundraising can't alter its
fundraising schedule for Italy in order to accomodate the WLM annual
community activity?

Thanks,
Pine
On Aug 18, 2015 11:42 AM, "Romaine Wiki" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
> no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>
>
>
> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest
> in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month, but
> it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This is
> sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by attolippip
Hi Antanana,

And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
there the downside effects.

This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.

I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.

Romaine


2015-08-18 20:50 GMT+02:00 attolippip <[hidden email]>:

> Sad news indeed.
> Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
> Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
>
> Best regards,
> antanana
> ED of Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sad news.
>> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
>> situation as it looks now.
>>
>> *Background*
>> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
>> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
>> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
>> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
>> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>>
>> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there
>> is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
>> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
>> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
>> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>>
>>
>>
>> *What is the situation?*
>> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
>> the month September.
>> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
>> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>>
>> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
>> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
>> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>>
>> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
>> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
>> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
>> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
>> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
>> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
>> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>>
>> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>>
>> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
>> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
>> years.
>> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
>> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
>> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>>
>> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
>> was possible to move it for the second country.
>>
>> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
>> copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do
>> much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a
>> normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.
>>
>>
>> *My conclusion*
>> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
>> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
>> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
>> wrong assumption somehow?
>>
>> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
>> is sad, very sad.
>>
>>
>> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
>> successful contest.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
>> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Maarten Dammers
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hi Romaine,

Sad to hear this. I remember running in the same situation a couple of
years ago (2013) when a really prominent "new privacy policy" banner was
put up for everyone with a high percentage for most of the month [1].
Back than I contacted the people at the WMF responsible for that. I got
some very polite replies that can be summed up as "our project is more
important than yours". The WMF owns the sites so if they feel like they
want to put up banners that conflict with WLM, they can just do that and
there is nothing we can do about that (besides complaining on mailing
lists).

Maarten

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=CentralNotice/Calendar&oldid=5844467

Romaine Wiki schreef op 18-8-2015 om 20:42:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised
> by many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this
> contest a banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific
> countries to attract attention from the public to participate in
> enriching Wikipedia with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When
> there is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as
> possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the
> contest site. Also participants need time to go on location to take
> photos and see the banner above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way
> back.
>
>
> *What is the situation?
> *
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy
> during the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been
> talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments
> get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is
> used, and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the
> month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full
> weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate,
> based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15%
> of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been
> expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the
> past years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another
> month, but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow
> it was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
> copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to
> do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have
> a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the
> content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always
> thought that this was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia
> movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt.
> This is sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve
> a successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments
> this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Antanana,
>
> And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
> there the downside effects.
>
> This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
>
> I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
>
> Romaine
>
>
It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Liam Wyatt
In reply to this post by attolippip
On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
>
>  The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and
feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the 2015-16
fundraiser at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas

Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every year.
But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested comments
about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that people use
it.

-Liam


--
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Peace, love & metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Platonides
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Really sad indeed. Specially for a country with such a complicated
situation as Italy.

Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be
possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation page?
I would expect targetting people that visit the page but doesn't donate,
or listing "other ways to help" after donation (a more standard one
about editing could be used, too). It won't have the same impact as a
banner, but it'd be an interesting approach.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Ilario Valdelli
Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.

The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and
can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.

The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited effect.

On 18.08.2015 23:31, Platonides wrote:
>
> Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be
> possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation
> page?

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Liam Wyatt
Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things? Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not crippled at the last minute?
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt
Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
>
>  The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and
feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the 2015-16 fundraiser at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas

Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every year.
But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that people use it.

-Liam


--
wittylama.com
Peace, love & metadata
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrea Zanni-2
[sorry for cross-posting]

Hello everyone.

Thanks Romaine for bringing up this issue, because it's good to talk these
kind of things together with the whole community. It's a way to improve
collaboration, I hope.

Yes, this year WLM and FR will split banners in Semptember: we reached an
agreement in which
* 1-7 September: everyone see a WLM banner
 * 8-22 September: everyone see a fundraising banner
 * 23-30 September: the traffic will be split 50/50 between the WLM
campaign and the fundraising campaign. (50% of readers will see a
fundraising banner and 50% will see the WLM campaign.)

We asked also a bigger percentage of visibility during the last 2-3 days of
September, as they are very important days in terms of number of photo
uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there.

I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team have
been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time, there *is*
a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this.
Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR decided to
leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final days.

This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in Italy
will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-).
This is a pity because:
* FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush and
cannot really change their plans
* WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has done
for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the FDC
appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there was the
same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part there was no lack
of communication.

I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that
counts.
This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a fight
(or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for WLM (we
asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in our opinion
the most important).

What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds
Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and
metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will not be
easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically.
Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization and
management in Italy.

Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the WMF is
committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it seems it's the
most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and run it in October.
I don't see other solutions.

I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation.

Cheers

Andrea Zanni
Wikimedia Italia

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things?
> Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not
> crippled at the last minute?
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked
> by WMF fundraising
>
> On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
> >
> >  The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and
> feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the
> 2015-16 fundraiser at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
>
> Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every year.
> But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested
> comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that
> people use it.
>
> -Liam
>
>
> --
> wittylama.com
> Peace, love & metadata
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 20.42 +0200, Romaine Wiki ha scritto:
> [...]
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
> copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much
> much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal
> contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.

Since probably most people in wikimedia-l are not aware of this, I'll
add some background on the Italian situation an Wiki loves monuments,
and why it's actually extra sad for Italy in particular.

Wiki loves monuments is a big global project (one of the most successful
ever), but in Italy it's a bit peculiar.
The basic issue is that in Italy not only we don't have freedom of
panorama, but there is actually a law that prohibits to take pictures of
monuments, unless you get a specific authorization (and of course there
is no list of Italian monuments and no simple way to know who is
responsible for a specific monument).
Since we are not people easy to stop, four years ago we decided to start
asking for authorizations: we wrote to thousands of municipalities and
other institutions.
But every cloud has a silver lining, and we turned this problem into an
occasion to build relationships. For this year's edition, we secured
authorizations from 200 municipalities and 100 other institutions (so
far); and with part of them we are organizing events (~40) during
September.
This is a huge work: apart from the many volunteers involved, we have a
full time employee for WLM (Cristian Cenci) but actually also the rest
of our staff is dedicating a lot of time to this (summing up, 1,5-2 FTEs
as a yearly average). In particular, the budget of WLM in Italy is
probably higher than in any other country (not because we waste money,
but because of higher stakes).
Clearly having specific authorizations is not the ideal solution, so we
are actually advocating for a change in the law. Apart from taking part
in the European effort on copyright (the FKAGEU), we are are trying to
make the Italian politicians understand the issue (among other things,
we have recently had an event in the Italian parliament).

In short, this means that WLM in Italy is planned long ahead, we have
hundreds of institutional partner, and it is central to our strategy.

Lorenzo



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

MF-Warburg-2
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
Am 19.08.2015 11:19 schrieb "Andrea Zanni" <[hidden email]>:

>
> [sorry for cross-posting]
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> Thanks Romaine for bringing up this issue, because it's good to talk these
> kind of things together with the whole community. It's a way to improve
> collaboration, I hope.
>
> Yes, this year WLM and FR will split banners in Semptember: we reached an
> agreement in which
> * 1-7 September: everyone see a WLM banner
>  * 8-22 September: everyone see a fundraising banner
>  * 23-30 September: the traffic will be split 50/50 between the WLM
> campaign and the fundraising campaign. (50% of readers will see a
> fundraising banner and 50% will see the WLM campaign.)
>
> We asked also a bigger percentage of visibility during the last 2-3 days
of
> September, as they are very important days in terms of number of photo
> uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there.
>
> I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team have
> been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time, there
*is*
> a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this.
> Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR decided to
> leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final days.
>
> This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in
Italy
> will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-).
> This is a pity because:
> * FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush and
> cannot really change their plans

How ridiculous. As if WMF would urgently need this money from Italy and as
if it's hard work to change the date when some fundraising banners are
shown to October.

> * WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has done
> for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the FDC
> appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there was the
> same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part there was no
lack
> of communication.
>
> I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that
> counts.
> This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a
fight
> (or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for WLM (we
> asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in our opinion
> the most important).
>
> What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds
> Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and
> metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will not
be
> easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically.
> Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization and
> management in Italy.
>
> Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the WMF is
> committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it seems it's
the

> most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and run it in October.
> I don't see other solutions.
>
> I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrea Zanni
> Wikimedia Italia
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things?
> > Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not
> > crippled at the last minute?
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt
> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked
> > by WMF fundraising
> >
> > On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
> > >
> > >  The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and
> > feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the
> > 2015-16 fundraiser at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
> >
> > Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every
year.

> > But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested
> > comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that
> > people use it.
> >
> > -Liam
> >
> >
> > --
> > wittylama.com
> > Peace, love & metadata
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10462 - Release Date:
08/18/15

> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Chapters] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Claudia Garád
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
Hi Andrea,

thanks for the update. We were in the same situation last year,
including all the negative side effects mentioned already.
The worst part was to explain our long-standing and important partner
the Federal Monuments Office that we can't have the banner time at
cruical dates in September (especially the days leading up to our events
around the national monuments day in Austria), at a time when all the
information material with dates etc. was already printed and distributed.

Like you, we decided to come to terms with the situation without causing
drama or trouble, but we communicated very clearly and on various
channels that we wish for or rather strongly recommend a better planning
this year, i.e. an information for the affected countries months and not
only weeks or days before the event, so that they they can come up with
adequate strategies and plan accordingly. It sounds that - again - this
was not the case this year.

So, yes indeed - sad news - I really think this could have been avoided
to a certain extend.

Claudia


Am 19.08.2015 um 11:18 schrieb Andrea Zanni:

> [sorry for cross-posting]
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> Thanks Romaine for bringing up this issue, because it's good to talk
> these kind of things together with the whole community. It's a way to
> improve collaboration, I hope.
>
> Yes, this year WLM and FR will split banners in Semptember: we reached
> an agreement in which
> * 1-7 September: everyone see a WLM banner
>  * 8-22 September: everyone see a fundraising banner
>  * 23-30 September: the traffic will be split 50/50 between the WLM
> campaign and the fundraising campaign. (50% of readers will see a
> fundraising banner and 50% will see the WLM campaign.) *
>
> *
> We asked also a bigger percentage of visibility during the last 2-3
> days of September, as they are very important days in terms of number
> of photo uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there.
>
> I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team
> have been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time,
> there *is* a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this.
> Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR
> decided to leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final
> days.
>
> This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in
> Italy will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-).
> This is a pity because:
> * FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush
> and cannot really change their plans
> * WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has
> done for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the
> FDC appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there
> was the same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part
> there was no lack of communication.
>
> I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that
> counts.
> This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a
> fight (or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for
> WLM (we asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in
> our opinion the most important).
>
> What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds
> Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and
> metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will
> not be easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically.
> Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization
> and management in Italy.
>
> Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the
> WMF is committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it
> seems it's the most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and
> run it in October. I don't see other solutions.
>
> I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrea Zanni
> Wikimedia Italia
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>     Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these
>     things? Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned
>     properly and not crippled at the last minute?
>     Peter
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     [mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of
>     Liam Wyatt
>     Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM
>     To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>     Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
>     Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely
>     blocked by WMF fundraising
>
>     On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     >
>     > Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
>     >
>     >  The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own
>     comments and
>     feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for
>     the 2015-16 fundraiser at:
>     https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
>
>     Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates
>     every year.
>     But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested
>     comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I
>     suggest that people use it.
>
>     -Liam
>
>
>     --
>     wittylama.com <http://wittylama.com>
>     Peace, love & metadata
>     _______________________________________________
>     Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>     https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>     [hidden email]
>     <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines%0AWikimedia-l@...>
>     Unsubscribe:
>     https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>     <mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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>     No virus found in this message.
>     Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>     Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10462 - Release Date:
>     08/18/15
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chapters mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://intern.wikimedia.ch/lists/listinfo/chapters

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
I can definitely understand your frustration, Romaine.

However, if there is a strong operational reason why the Fundraising team
can't move the activity they have planned for Italy in September, then I
can't really see what resolution there can be except for sharing the banner
space.

Normally though one would expect repeated banner impressions to have
diminishing returns, rather than increasing returns - so I would expect the
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments to be a fair bit less than what you make out.

One thing I don't understand though - I thought fundraising banners were
set to display ~once per person these days, rather than actually site-wide
as they used to - is it not possible to have the (less intrusive) WLM
banner displaying for the people who aren't getting the fundraising
messages?

Thanks,

Chris








On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
> no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>
>
>
> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest
> in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month, but
> it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This is
> sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Ziko van Dijk-3
An excellent idea, Chris.

I am curious what are the exact reasons for having the fundraising banner
in September. We were always told that December is the best month. It is no
secret that many (and which) chapters run the WLM event in September. Maybe
the FR team can explain about that, so that we have the bigger picture.

Kind regards
Ziko


Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 schrieb Chris Keating :

> I can definitely understand your frustration, Romaine.
>
> However, if there is a strong operational reason why the Fundraising team
> can't move the activity they have planned for Italy in September, then I
> can't really see what resolution there can be except for sharing the banner
> space.
>
> Normally though one would expect repeated banner impressions to have
> diminishing returns, rather than increasing returns - so I would expect the
> impact on Wiki Loves Monuments to be a fair bit less than what you make
> out.
>
> One thing I don't understand though - I thought fundraising banners were
> set to display ~once per person these days, rather than actually site-wide
> as they used to - is it not possible to have the (less intrusive) WLM
> banner displaying for the people who aren't getting the fundraising
> messages?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Sad news.
> > The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> > situation as it looks now.
> >
> > *Background*
> > Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> > many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> > banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> > attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> > with photos of the local cultural heritage.
> >
> > Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there
> is
> > no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> > participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site.
> Also
> > participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the
> banner
> > above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
> >
> >
> >
> > *What is the situation?*
> > * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> > the month September.
> > * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest
> > in Italy and needs a banner as well.
> >
> > As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> > about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> > 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
> >
> > Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> > appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is
> used,
> > and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> > September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> > important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> > the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> > uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
> >
> > This is what I would call a devastating effect.
> >
> > And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> > * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> > years.
> > * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> > * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
> but
> > it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
> >
> > This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> > was possible to move it for the second country.
> >
> > This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
> copyright
> > situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> > much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal
> contest.
> > The Italian team does a great job this year.
> >
> >
> > *My conclusion*
> > The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> > of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that
> this
> > was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> > wrong assumption somehow?
> >
> > But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
> is
> > sad, very sad.
> >
> >
> > Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> > successful contest.
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> >
> > PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> > year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Sam Klein
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
There's a more general problem here we should fix:

We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to run
a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

We should improve the effectiveness of all banners by showing them
conservatively.  If most pageloads are completely banner free, banners will
likely have a greater impact when they are shown. And we should be able to
measure this: tracking how effective each % of visibility is at getting
clickthroughs for each banner.  Making that sort of data immediately
visible to everyone who designs banners would be a great step forward.

Are WLM projects doing A/B testing of banner messages?  Do you have access
to A/B test frameworks and results?

SJ




On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Antanana,
> >
> > And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
> also
> > there the downside effects.
> >
> > This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> > Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> > matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> > and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> > both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> > assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
> >
> > I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> > how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> > Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
> advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
> WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
> Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
> with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>



--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top
of articles can't be beat.

Cheers,
Craig

On 19 August 2015 at 05:18, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Antanana,
> >
> > And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
> also
> > there the downside effects.
> >
> > This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> > Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> > matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> > and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> > both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> > assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
> >
> > I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> > how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> > Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
> advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
> WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
> Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
> with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Sam Klein
On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>
> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to run
> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.

However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it".

The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.

I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
visible in some way when they come back.

Andrew.

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- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrea Zanni-2
I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very
easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).

And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count
the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

Aubrey



On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> >
> > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to
> run
> > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.
>
> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>
> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> it.
>
> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> and come back again to tell us about it".
>
> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>
> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> visible in some way when they come back.
>
> Andrew.
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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