[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
89 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
majority of the people.

Romaine

2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:

> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very
> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>
> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count
> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>
> Aubrey
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > >
> > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason to
> > run
> > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.
> >
> > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> >
> > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > it.
> >
> > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > and come back again to tell us about it".
> >
> > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> >
> > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > visible in some way when they come back.
> >
> > Andrew.
> >
> > --
> > - Andrew Gray
> >   [hidden email]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Risker
I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
banners in rotation.)

Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

Risker/Anne

On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>
> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> majority of the people.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> very
> > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
> > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
> > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> >
> > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
> > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> count
> > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> >
> > Aubrey
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > >
> > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
> to
> > > run
> > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> run.
> > >
> > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > >
> > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > it.
> > >
> > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > >
> > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > >
> > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > >
> > > Andrew.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Andrew Gray
> > >   [hidden email]
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hi!

I think one point is skipped, before this should be discussed at all: why
is it not possible to move a banner to another month?
This question needs an answer first. Each time this problem occurs,
multiple years now in different occasions, the fundraising team says they
can't move the banner, but they have never provided any reasonable
explanation for that at all.

Because of the fundraising banner, this community project and the content
of both Wikipedia and Commons experience a huge loss. What makes the loss
is worth it for the movement?

That is the core question that needs an answer first in my opinion.

Romaine

2015-08-20 7:26 GMT+02:00 Risker <[hidden email]>:

> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> >
> > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> this
> > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > majority of the people.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > very
> > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> top".
> > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> (in
> > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> > >
> > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> knows
> > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > count
> > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> > >
> > > Aubrey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > >
> > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
> > to
> > > > run
> > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> > run.
> > > >
> > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> WLM
> > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > >
> > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> it,
> > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> the
> > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > >
> > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> off
> > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> upload
> > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> won't
> > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > >
> > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> to
> > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > >   [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Ricordisamoa
In reply to this post by Risker
Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the
ones on Commons?

Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:

> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
>> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>>
>> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
>> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
>> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
>> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
>> majority of the people.
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
>> very
>>> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
>>> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
>>> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>>>
>>> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
>>> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
>> count
>>> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>>>
>>> Aubrey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>>>>>
>>>>> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
>>>>> dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
>> to
>>>> run
>>>>> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
>> run.
>>>> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
>>>> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
>>>> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>>>>
>>>> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
>>>> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
>>>> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
>>>> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
>>>> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
>>>> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
>>>> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
>>>> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
>>>> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
>>>> and come back again to tell us about it".
>>>>
>>>> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
>>>> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
>>>> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
>>>> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
>>>> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
>>>> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
>>>> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
>>>> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
>>>> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
>>>> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
>>>> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
>>>> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
>>>> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
>>>> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>>>>
>>>> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
>>>> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
>>>> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
>>>> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
>>>> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
>>>> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
>>>> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
>>>> visible in some way when they come back.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>>    [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
If a local community wants this, they can create such of course. But I
think most visitors from Wikipedia do not visit the Main Page.

2015-08-20 7:41 GMT+02:00 Ricordisamoa <[hidden email]>:

> Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones
> on Commons?
>
>
> Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:
>
>> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
>> but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
>> options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
>> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
>> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
>> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
>> least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
>> WLM
>> banners in rotation.)
>>
>> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
>> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
>> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
>> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
>> list.
>> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
>> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
>>> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>>>
>>> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
>>> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
>>> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
>>> this
>>> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
>>> majority of the people.
>>>
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
>>>>
>>> very
>>>
>>>> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
>>>> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
>>>> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>>>>
>>>> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
>>>> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
>>>>
>>> count
>>>
>>>> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>>>>
>>>> Aubrey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <[hidden email]
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
>>>>>> dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> run
>>>>>
>>>>>> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
>>>>>>
>>>>> run.
>>>
>>>> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
>>>>> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
>>>>> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
>>>>> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
>>>>> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
>>>>> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
>>>>> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
>>>>> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
>>>>> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
>>>>> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
>>>>> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
>>>>> and come back again to tell us about it".
>>>>>
>>>>> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
>>>>> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
>>>>> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
>>>>> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
>>>>> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
>>>>> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
>>>>> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
>>>>> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
>>>>> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
>>>>> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
>>>>> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
>>>>> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
>>>>> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
>>>>> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
>>>>> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
>>>>> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
>>>>> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
>>>>> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
>>>>> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
>>>>> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
>>>>> visible in some way when they come back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>>>    [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

John Mark Vandenberg
Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
page?

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

MF-Warburg-2
In reply to this post by Risker
Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <[hidden email]>:

> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> >
> > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> this
> > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > majority of the people.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > very
> > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> top".
> > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> (in
> > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> > >
> > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> knows
> > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > count
> > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> > >
> > > Aubrey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > >
> > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a reason
> > to
> > > > run
> > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> > run.
> > > >
> > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> WLM
> > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > >
> > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> it,
> > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> the
> > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > >
> > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> off
> > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> upload
> > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> won't
> > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > >
> > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> to
> > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > >   [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Steinsplitter Wiki
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
Why wmf needs to put a fundraising banner every year on wp. Isn't there enough money in Frisco?

Just wondering :)

> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:48:02 +1000
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
> during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
> page?
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
     
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by MF-Warburg-2
This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
those years.

If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?

Romaine

2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <[hidden email]>:

> Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
> urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
> Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
> here,
> > but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
> > options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> > perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> > Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
> > the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> > least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
> WLM
> > banners in rotation.)
> >
> > Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> > of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> > them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> > specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
> list.
> > I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> > come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> > >
> > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group
> of
> > > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
> showing
> > > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> > this
> > > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > > majority of the people.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > > very
> > > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> > top".
> > > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> > (in
> > > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's
> English).
> > > >
> > > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> > knows
> > > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > > count
> > > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing
> page).
> > > >
> > > > Aubrey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a
> reason
> > > to
> > > > > run
> > > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners
> to
> > > run.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising
> experience
> > > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> > WLM
> > > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> > it,
> > > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,
> you
> > > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;
> while
> > > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> > the
> > > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has
> progressively
> > > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking
> for
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do
> something,
> > > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > > >
> > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> > off
> > > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can
> do
> > > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> > upload
> > > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> > won't
> > > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else
> on
> > > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard
> to
> > > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on
> fundraising.
> > > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some
> ways
> > > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> > to
> > > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Lisa Gruwell
I know the Italian Chapter, the online fundraising team, and community
liaisons have been talking about solutions for a while and I won’t get in
the way of that, but I thought I would offer a few ideas on some of the
online organizing tactics being discussed here.  This probably falls in the
category of unsolicited advice and it might be bad advice at that.  To
quote a good song, “It’s bad advice only if you use it.”

On the topic of limiting impressions,  I agree that the fundraising use
case is different than WLM organizing.  I am still fairly sure that there
has to something more effective than running a full-time banner for a
month.  It would take testing a bunch of ideas to figure that out and
Central Notice has much more capacity now to test different things.  We are
happy to help brainstorm ideas for that if anyone wanted.

I understand that WLM’s has a common organizing challenge in that it’s a
couple step process for participation.  Would it make sense to prioritize a
“Sign up” or “Enter the Contest” feature on the landing pages that asks
people to submit their email addresses, so that you can followup with
them?  I mention this because online fundraising has experimented with a
“Remind me later” feature on mobile where we have people enter their email
addresses, so that we can send them a followup fundraising email. It has
had some good results. It seems like having email addresses for followup
would help keep people engaged in WLM and you could also reach out to them
next year.

Lastly, we could add an appeal to participate in WLM to the thank you email
we send to donors in Italy.  We would be happy to do it, if it’s useful.

Best regards,

Lisa

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
> outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
> why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
> September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
> those years.
>
> If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
> it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
> think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
> have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
> community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
> out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
> Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF
> so
> > urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
> > Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
> > here,
> > > but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some
> other
> > > options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> > > perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> > > Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not
> quite
> > > the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> > > least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
> > WLM
> > > banners in rotation.)
> > >
> > > Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here;
> both
> > > of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> > > them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during
> that
> > > specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
> > list.
> > > I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> > > come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
> > >
> > > Risker/Anne
> > >
> > > On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > > > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> > > >
> > > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole
> group
> > of
> > > > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
> > showing
> > > > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> > > this
> > > > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for
> the
> > > > majority of the people.
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and
> it's
> > > > very
> > > > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> > > top".
> > > > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the
> contest
> > > (in
> > > > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's
> > English).
> > > > >
> > > > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> > > knows
> > > > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we
> cannot
> > > > count
> > > > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing
> > page).
> > > > >
> > > > > Aubrey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops
> off
> > > > > > > dramatically after the first few views.  So there's rarely a
> > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > > run
> > > > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners
> > to
> > > > run.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising
> > experience
> > > > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners
> like
> > > WLM
> > > > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You
> see
> > > it,
> > > > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,
> > you
> > > > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;
> > while
> > > > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again.
> So
> > > the
> > > > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has
> > progressively
> > > > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide
> "I'll
> > > > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they
> *do*,
> > > > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking
> > for
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do
> > something,
> > > > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and
> go
> > > off
> > > > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can
> > do
> > > > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> > > upload
> > > > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> > > won't
> > > > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else
> > on
> > > > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where
> the
> > > > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find
> WLM
> > > > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard
> > to
> > > > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on
> > fundraising.
> > > > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some
> > ways
> > > > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to
> return
> > > to
> > > > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Chapters] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Claudia Garád
Il giorno mer, 19/08/2015 alle 11.39 +0200, Claudia Garád ha scritto:
> The worst part was to explain our long-standing and important partner
> the Federal Monuments Office that we can't have the banner time at
> cruical dates in September (especially the days leading up to our
> events
> around the national monuments day in Austria), at a time when all the
> information material with dates etc. was already printed and
> distributed.

Yes, this will be an issue for WMI too. And WLM Italy has a lot of
partners.

Laurentius



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Risker
Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 01.26 -0400, Risker ha scritto:
>  [...] perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload
> images for Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.

This might be a way to mitigate the problem, although I'm not sure
whether it's technically feasible.

Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 07.41 +0200, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:
> Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the
> ones on Commons?

This could be another one.

Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 23.39 +0200, Ilario Valdelli ha scritto:
> Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.
>
> The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and
> can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.
>
> The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited
> effect.

And this one too (although I'm not a fan of this).

None of these will solve the problem, but I think they are worth of
consideration for it.wikipedia's community.

Lorenzo



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Michael Peel-2
From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could have been resolved locally.

Thanks,
Mike


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Risker
Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
any stretch of the imagination.  The process was stopped because it was
costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
that results in much higher costs.

Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
common group affected.  I think we really need to get better at scheduling
events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
advertising/banners/messaging for their success.  The further in advance a
potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
solutions to those conflicts can be put into place.  It would be really
helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
in planning major local activities.

I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

Risker/Anne





On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
> organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
> campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
> WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
> arisen / could have been resolved locally.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Risker
On 20 August 2015 at 06:26, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point.  I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered.  For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.  It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least.  (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)

I can see this working, to a degree. I think it would be quite
valuable serving the role of wayfinding for a returning contributor
looking for it - but I'm not sure it could effectively replace the
banner as a first port of call & way to attract attention.

Still, nothing ventured!

Some projects have restyled the globe logo for special occasions -
that might be another approach to consider.

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Michael Peel-2
In reply to this post by Risker

> Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
> problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
> persuaded;

Hence why I said "part"; this wasn't meant to be a persuasive argument, it was just a comment on this particular issue. The other topics you mention should probably be discussed in a different thread.

> having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
> any stretch of the imagination.  The process was stopped because it was
> costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
> very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
> that results in much higher costs.

{{citation needed}} please. That's an interesting perspective that I haven't heard before, and I haven't seen any supporting evidence for that argument. But again, that is a different discussion.

> Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
> increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
> between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
> these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
> common group affected.  I think we really need to get better at scheduling
> events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
> activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
> advertising/banners/messaging for their success.  The further in advance a
> potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
> solutions to those conflicts can be put into place.  It would be really
> helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
> advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
> in planning major local activities.

That was my point: if we worked on a national rather than international basis as a baseline, then this sort of issue simply wouldn't arise.

> I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
> for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

I agree with this.

Thanks,
Mike

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-2
I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between
the community and the Wikimedia Foundation.

I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to
originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
de-attached from the community.

At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve
this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the
Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon.
(To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are
closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached
with the community.)

Romaine


2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel <[hidden email]>:

> From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
> organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
> campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
> WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
> arisen / could have been resolved locally.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Risker
If the fundraising banner was planned in November to be shown in Italy, the
problem would have been the same. Only the time could have a positive
impact.

Also then something has been missed: Wiki Loves Monuments is a sticky
project in September, already for years, as it is attached to a world wide
event of heritage days. The fundraising team should have known that this
project is organised and that organising banners for fundraising in
September is a big risk. Still this issue keeps coming up. I find it
unbelievable that after all these years of organising, WMF FR is still not
capable of acting with understanding. I call such bad planning, and naming
it such is an understatement.

Romaine

2015-08-21 22:42 GMT+02:00 Risker <[hidden email]>:

> Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
> problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
> persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
> any stretch of the imagination.  The process was stopped because it was
> costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
> very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
> that results in much higher costs.
>
> Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
> increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
> between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
> these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
> common group affected.  I think we really need to get better at scheduling
> events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
> activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
> advertising/banners/messaging for their success.  The further in advance a
> potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
> solutions to those conflicts can be put into place.  It would be really
> helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
> advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
> in planning major local activities.
>
> I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
> for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
> > organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
> > campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
> > WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't
> have
> > arisen / could have been resolved locally.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Steinsplitter Wiki
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
> (...) The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
> de-attached from the community.

This is so true, Romaine! Especially the new staffer who never edited wikipedia before becoming staffer.

 Of course there is also wmf staff closely involved in the community and doing a great job. It is always a pleasure to do stuff together with them! Really.

> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:59:46 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between
> the community and the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to
> originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much
> de-attached from the community.
>
> At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve
> this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the
> Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon.
> (To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are
> closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached
> with the community.)
>
> Romaine
>
>
> 2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel <[hidden email]>:
>
> > From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
> > organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
> > campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
> > WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
> > arisen / could have been resolved locally.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
     
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Luis Villa
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hi, Romaine-

[tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a lot
of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that efficiently.
We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is perfect. In the
long run, we would like to work together to try to figure out a calendar
and other alternatives.]

Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a
solution.

Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term.

In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this
year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This
is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews (details
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16&diff=12692813&oldid=12650742>).
They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that
is small by non-profit fundraising standards.

For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in Europe.
This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during September.
Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid. :/ This is
why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out a
compromise last month.

My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already
adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. Fundraising also
cooperated with the French chapter to move those dates. No compromise is
perfect, but I think we did the best we could under the circumstances. We
can continue to make small changes (for example, Lisa offered earlier in
this thread to add WLM suggestions in fundraising emails) but the team
needs to start working now.

In the long term, WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments and the many other
projects that use Central Notice. Clearly, we need a better process to help
coordinate Central Notice, including WMF projects like fundraising. We
would like to work on setting up such a process, but that will require more
work on our side. So Lisa and I are talking about how we can trim back on
other work to make this happen.

We would also love to work with WLM and other programs to figure out better
ways to communicate with potential contributors. For example, if we asked
potential contributors to give their email (as Italia already does
<http://wikilovesmonuments.wikimedia.it/>), we could almost certainly make
the process more effective and reduce banners at the same time. Again,
though, helping with something like this will require cutting back
elsewhere in Fundraising/Community, and so that will take some time to
figure out.

Hope this helps clarify the situation. Lisa and I are happy to answer more
questions if we can.


Thanks-

Luis


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
> no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>
>
>
> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
> is sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>



--
Luis Villa
Sr. Director of Community Engagement
Wikimedia Foundation
*Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share
in the sum of all knowledge.*
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
12345