[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hello Luis,

Organising Wiki Loves Monuments is a hard job. For the world wide Wikimedia
community Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest and important project.
Everywhere around the world cultural heritage can be found, and the
community organises Wiki Loves Monuments to have content created in words
and images to expand Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons in the field of
cultural heritage. This project is important to us.

As Wiki Loves Monuments we have tried to collaborate with various people
inside WMF concerning the CentralNotice banners

I think indeed we have patience as community, but seeing the troubles we
experience for three years on a row, each time getting worse and worse,
maybe we should loose our patience to get something changed. This is not
the first time we complained about this. And now having this for the 3rd
year on a row, enough is enough. This can't continue any longer.

The community understands fundraising is needed, and we can imagine that
fundraising should be done in September as well. But it is indigestible
that the fundraising team doesn't take into account that the community has
an important project going on in September.

This is not the first time Wiki Loves Monuments is organised, it is
organised for years. Everyone in the Foundation already could have learned
that September is  a month they need to pay special attention to if it
concerns fundraising banners.

And Fundraising is possible in multiple European countries as Wiki Loves
Monuments isn't organised there this year. It is the fundraising team who
has chosen the worst possible country in Europe. This is called bad
planning.

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
Foundation.

And again this is not a compromise, besides no banner at all, this outcome
is the worst possible outcome for Wiki Loves Monuments. All purely because
the fundraising team is bad in planning. If this is called "the best we
could", I think it is time to fire some people and start with a team with
more capabilities.
"We can continue"
Sorry, it is not acceptable. Completely unacceptable.

"but the team needs to start working now."
Then WMF seeks the confrontation with the community.

"WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments"
WMF is saying this a lot, but when it actually matters it is not shown in
the deeds and actions. Just a few examples we have seen:
* Mobile support revoked by WMF.
* Software updates that cause to completely rebuild the infrastructure, in
the last days before the start of the contest.
* Various WMF banners that block(ed) Wiki Loves banners.
* A WLM evaluation by WMF that rips out the essence of the project, saying
that WLM is doing worse, but forgets to mention that a large part is caused
by WMF itself.

What deeds show that WMF really cares?
Have I seen any?

And the responses we get a lot from WMF are fairy tales.
And no, it doesn't clarify the situation.


I think it is for WMF time to answer these questions:

1. When does WMF start with actually caring for community projects, like
Wiki Loves Monuments and others, to be shown in deeds and actions?

2. Is WMF going to cancel the fundraising banner in September for Italy
when it is too late, or when they are still in time?

3. Why is the question what the loss is worth it for the movement still
unanswered?

4. Why is it worth to damage the largest project of the year while the
fundraising could be done a month later as well?



Romaine


2015-08-22 20:02 GMT+02:00 Luis Villa <[hidden email]>:

> Hi, Romaine-
>
> [tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a
> lot of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that
> efficiently. We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is
> perfect. In the long run, we would like to work together to try to figure
> out a calendar and other alternatives.]
>
> Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a
> solution.
>
> Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term.
>
> In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this
> year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This
> is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews (
> details
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16&diff=12692813&oldid=12650742>).
> They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that
> is small by non-profit fundraising standards.
>
> For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in
> Europe. This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during
> September. Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid.
> :/ This is why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out
> a compromise last month.
>
> My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already
> adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. Fundraising also
> cooperated with the French chapter to move those dates. No compromise is
> perfect, but I think we did the best we could under the circumstances. We
> can continue to make small changes (for example, Lisa offered earlier in
> this thread to add WLM suggestions in fundraising emails) but the team
> needs to start working now.
>
> In the long term, WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments and the many other
> projects that use Central Notice. Clearly, we need a better process to help
> coordinate Central Notice, including WMF projects like fundraising. We
> would like to work on setting up such a process, but that will require more
> work on our side. So Lisa and I are talking about how we can trim back on
> other work to make this happen.
>
> We would also love to work with WLM and other programs to figure out
> better ways to communicate with potential contributors. For example, if we
> asked potential contributors to give their email (as Italia already does
> <http://wikilovesmonuments.wikimedia.it/>), we could almost certainly
> make the process more effective and reduce banners at the same time.
> Again, though, helping with something like this will require cutting back
> elsewhere in Fundraising/Community, and so that will take some time to
> figure out.
>
> Hope this helps clarify the situation. Lisa and I are happy to answer more
> questions if we can.
>
>
> Thanks-
>
> Luis
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sad news.
>> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
>> situation as it looks now.
>>
>> *Background*
>> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
>> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
>> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
>> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
>> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>>
>> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there
>> is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
>> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
>> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
>> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>>
>>
>>
>> *What is the situation?*
>> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
>> the month September.
>> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
>> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>>
>> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
>> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
>> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>>
>> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
>> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
>> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
>> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
>> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
>> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
>> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>>
>> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>>
>> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
>> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
>> years.
>> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
>> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
>> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>>
>> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
>> was possible to move it for the second country.
>>
>> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
>> copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do
>> much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a
>> normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.
>>
>>
>> *My conclusion*
>> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
>> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
>> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
>> wrong assumption somehow?
>>
>> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
>> is sad, very sad.
>>
>>
>> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
>> successful contest.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
>> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Luis Villa
> Sr. Director of Community Engagement
> Wikimedia Foundation
> *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely
> share in the sum of all knowledge.*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Risker
On 21 August 2015 at 21:42, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The process was stopped because it was
> costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
> very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
> that results in much higher costs.

I doubt very much that the costs of fund-raising locally in the UK
outweighed the massive income from gift aid (refund of tax paid by
donors, on their donation). That income is, of course, now lost.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hi Romaine,

> And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
> team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
> Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
will be less than you expect in this case).

But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

Regards,

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a
compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between
WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect
and other issues. I personally hope not.

You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but
I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each
time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed
the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the
past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.

And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
picked the worst possible country.

You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you
make clear you missed the essence of this case.

Romaine

2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Romaine,
>
> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
> > Foundation.
>
> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
> will be less than you expect in this case).
>
> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Jane Darnell
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of
panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type
of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the
oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to
join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
municipalities that take part now.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not
> a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
> under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
> dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>
> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but
> I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each
> time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed
> the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the
> past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
>
> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
> picked the worst possible country.
>
> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi Romaine,
>>
>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>> Wikimedia
>> > Foundation.
>>
>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>> know
>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>>
>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chris
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hi Jane,
Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
a great job in getting all the permissions.

You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.

Romaine

2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late
> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
> municipalities that take part now.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not
>> a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
>> under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
>> dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>>
>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>> underestimate.
>>
>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
>> picked the worst possible country.
>>
>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Hi Romaine,
>>>
>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
>>> WLM
>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>>> Wikimedia
>>> > Foundation.
>>>
>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>>> know
>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>>>
>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
>>> has
>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Jane Darnell
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Jane,
> Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
> a great job in getting all the permissions.
>
> You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
>> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
>> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
>> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late
>> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
>> municipalities that take part now.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
>>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
>>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to
>>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
>>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>>>
>>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
>>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
>>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>>> underestimate.
>>>
>>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
>>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
>>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
>>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
>>> picked the worst possible country.
>>>
>>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
>>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>>>
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Romaine,
>>>>
>>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
>>>> WLM
>>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>> > Foundation.
>>>>
>>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>>>> know
>>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
>>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
>>>> WLM
>>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>>>>
>>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
>>>> with
>>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
>>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
>>>> has
>>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
>>>> always
>>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
>>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Richard Symonds-3
I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of
"casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way
there.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jane,
> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
> does
> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
> >
> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
> understand
> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
> late
> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
> specific
> >> municipalities that take part now.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
> to
> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
> this
> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
> >>>
> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
> seen
> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
> learned
> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
> >>> underestimate.
> >>>
> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
> countries
> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
> tales.
> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
> all
> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
> have
> >>> picked the worst possible country.
> >>>
> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
> >>>
> >>> Romaine
> >>>
> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Romaine,
> >>>>
> >>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
> >>>> WLM
> >>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
> >>>> Wikimedia
> >>>> > Foundation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
> >>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
> >>>> know
> >>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
> WMF
> >>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
> >>>> WLM
> >>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
> >>>>
> >>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
> >>>> with
> >>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
> all
> >>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
> >>>> has
> >>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
> >>>> always
> >>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
> what
> >>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Jane Darnell
Hi Jane,

The situation is more complicated for the organisers, yes.
But for participants in the contest it is not complicated. The Italian WLM
team has organised it in such way it is easy to participate.

Greetings,
Romaine

2015-08-24 13:08 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jane,
> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
> does
> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
> >
> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
> understand
> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
> late
> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
> specific
> >> municipalities that take part now.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
> to
> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
> this
> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
> >>>
> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
> seen
> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
> learned
> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
> >>> underestimate.
> >>>
> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
> countries
> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
> tales.
> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
> all
> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
> have
> >>> picked the worst possible country.
> >>>
> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
> >>>
> >>> Romaine
> >>>
> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Romaine,
> >>>>
> >>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
> >>>> WLM
> >>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
> >>>> Wikimedia
> >>>> > Foundation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
> >>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
> >>>> know
> >>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
> WMF
> >>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
> >>>> WLM
> >>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
> >>>>
> >>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
> >>>> with
> >>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
> all
> >>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
> >>>> has
> >>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
> >>>> always
> >>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
> what
> >>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Richard Symonds-3
Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if
we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to
the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page
rather than some other way.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
> attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion
> of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way
> there.
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>
> *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
> over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
>
> On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the
>> impact
>> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
>> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
>> situation
>> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
>> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
>> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Jane,
>> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama.
>> The
>> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
>> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
>> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
>> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
>> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
>> does
>> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
>> >
>> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
>> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
>> >
>> > Romaine
>> >
>> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow
>> freedom
>> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
>> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
>> understand
>> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
>> late
>> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
>> specific
>> >> municipalities that take part now.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
>> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
>> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is,
>> according to
>> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something.
>> In this
>> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>> >>>
>> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
>> seen
>> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
>> learned
>> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>> >>> underestimate.
>> >>>
>> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
>> countries
>> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
>> tales.
>> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
>> all
>> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
>> have
>> >>> picked the worst possible country.
>> >>>
>> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with
>> what
>> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>> >>>
>> >>> Romaine
>> >>>
>> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]
>> >:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Romaine,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The
>> Italian
>> >>>> WLM
>> >>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>> >>>> Wikimedia
>> >>>> > Foundation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>> >>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact.
>> I
>> >>>> know
>> >>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
>> WMF
>> >>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
>> >>>> WLM
>> >>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
>> >>>> with
>> >>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
>> all
>> >>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if
>> Autumn
>> >>>> has
>> >>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
>> >>>> always
>> >>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
>> what
>> >>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Chris
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>> <
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
>> >
>> >>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrea Zanni-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hello everyone.
Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
Wikimedia Italia.
The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
points.

In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
in September.
We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years.
Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
just for the last days.
It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of
communication.
We are not *happy* with the situation,
the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
the beginning of WLM.
We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
conversation and negotiation.
The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
the middle of September.
Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
mean that we are happy about what is happening.
Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
for WLM in 2015.

Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
because we have higher stakes.

This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting
as WMIT.

Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.

Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
even if copyright has expired.
We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
Monument.
We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
official list of monuments in Italy.

There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects

This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
photos.

The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
activities it is meant to support.
Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
to the Wikimedia projects.
We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team
is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident
that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the
future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
collaboratively.
We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all
other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
Wikimedia movement.

We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions
and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like
to see it become wider and bigger.

Andrea Zanni
for the board of Wikimedia Italia
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Strainu
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner.

It's more like 85-90% in my experience, but still a lot.

> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest
> in Italy and needs a banner as well.

Why not use the sitenotice?

Strainu

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Jane Darnell
Il giorno lun, 24/08/2015 alle 13.08 +0200, Jane Darnell ha scritto:
> What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for
> those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
> situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries,
> ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

In any country you have a list of monuments and you can submit a picture
of one of those monuments. In Italy it's exactly the same.
The problem lies in building the list of monuments! But for the users,
it is not more difficult than in any other country.

What we do is asking to the organizations that have the rights on the
monuments to provide an authorization for uploading the pictures on
Commons during the contest. The participants to the contest do not have
any specific work to do related to this.

Laurentius



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
In reply to this post by Strainu
Sitenotice depends on the project, not country of users. So, users in Italy
who is browsing ko.wikipedia.org will not see the banner if it is displayed
in sitenotice, which is not the case for CentralNotice.

--
Revi
https://revi.me
-- Sent from Android --
2015. 8. 25. 오전 2:29에 "Strainu" <[hidden email]>님이 작성:

> 2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner.
>
> It's more like 85-90% in my experience, but still a lot.
>
> > *What is the situation?*
> > * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> > the month September.
> > * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest
> > in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> Why not use the sitenotice?
>
> Strainu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
dear board,

allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better
to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
doing some work.

best,
rupert


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello everyone.
> Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> Wikimedia Italia.
> The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> points.
>
> In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
> Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
> in September.
> We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
> run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
> days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
> just for the last days.
> It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
> and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
> the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters
> of
> communication.
> We are not *happy* with the situation,
> the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
> middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
> the beginning of WLM.
> We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> conversation and negotiation.
> The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
> than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
> the middle of September.
> Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
> mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
> for WLM in 2015.
>
> Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
> impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
> This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
> pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
> photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
> the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
> (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> because we have higher stakes.
>
> This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> fighting
> as WMIT.
>
> Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
> a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
>
> Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
> even if copyright has expired.
> We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
> Monument.
> We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> official list of monuments in Italy.
>
> There is *extensive* documentation here:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
>
> This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
> why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
> alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
> photos.
>
> The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
> Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources).
> The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for
> this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> activities it is meant to support.
> Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
> library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
> who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
> to the Wikimedia projects.
> We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
> done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
> and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
> people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the
> movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team
> is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident
> that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the
> future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> collaboratively.
> We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all
> other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions
> and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like
> to see it become wider and bigger.
>
> Andrea Zanni
> for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andreas Kolbe-2
Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
fundraising ethics here:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia
online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when
bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just
enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
everyone".

Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given
the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them
about the Foundation's apparent money problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed

We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every year:

2006-2007: $3 million
2007-2008: $5 million
2008-2009: $9 million
2009-2010: $18 million
2010-2011: $25 million
2011-2012: $38 million
2012-2013: $49 million
2013-2014: $53 million
2014-2015: $75 million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary

By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year,
just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for
everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others
host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the
Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers
– would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human
knowledge available for everyone".)

What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
at the Wikimedia Foundation.

WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).

From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas

and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics

it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach
in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.

So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online
and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the
sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than
telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.

Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever
been a Request for Comment to find out?

According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took
several million more last year than the publicised target.)

We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same
fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014,
and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about
it.

Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an
honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising
principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances,
and what it has done and will do with donors' money.

This is what ethical charities do.

I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a
good place to begin:

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword

The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this
financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to
make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build
anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.

Andreas



On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> dear board,
>
> allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
> should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
> technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
> and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
> could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
> movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better
> to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> doing some work.
>
> best,
> rupert
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone.
> > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > Wikimedia Italia.
> > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> > points.
> >
> > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
> > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
> > in September.
> > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known
> to
> > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
> several
> > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
> live
> > just for the last days.
> > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> history,
> > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
> > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters
> > of
> > communication.
> > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
> > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
> > the beginning of WLM.
> > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> > conversation and negotiation.
> > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
> better
> > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days
> in
> > the middle of September.
> > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
> > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> results
> > for WLM in 2015.
> >
> > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> negative
> > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
> > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
> > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
> Italian
> > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> Museums),
> > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
> > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> > because we have higher stakes.
> >
> > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> > fighting
> > as WMIT.
> >
> > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
> being
> > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> monuments.
> >
> > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
> > even if copyright has expired.
> > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
> > Monument.
> > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> > official list of monuments in Italy.
> >
> > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> >
> > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
> reason
> > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
> 2014
> > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
> > photos.
> >
> > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
> > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> sources).
> > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but,
> for
> > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> > activities it is meant to support.
> > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
> > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
> > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
> > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
> > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
> > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
> > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to
> the
> > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
> team
> > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> confident
> > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the
> > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> > collaboratively.
> > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and
> all
> > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
> > Wikimedia movement.
> >
> > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> opinions
> > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like
> > to see it become wider and bigger.
> >
> > Andrea Zanni
> > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Steinsplitter Wiki
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.

Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important than free knowledge. It is frustrating...

Regards,
Steinsplitter

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> dear board,
>
> allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot and
> should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a simple
> technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for WLM
> and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
> the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones i
> could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we as
> movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is better
> to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
> web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> doing some work.
>
> best,
> rupert
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone.
> > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > Wikimedia Italia.
> > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> > points.
> >
> > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
> > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
> > in September.
> > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
> > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
> > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
> > just for the last days.
> > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
> > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
> > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters
> > of
> > communication.
> > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
> > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
> > the beginning of WLM.
> > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> > conversation and negotiation.
> > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
> > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
> > the middle of September.
> > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
> > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
> > for WLM in 2015.
> >
> > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
> > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
> > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
> > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
> > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
> > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
> > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> > because we have higher stakes.
> >
> > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> > fighting
> > as WMIT.
> >
> > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
> > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.
> >
> > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
> > even if copyright has expired.
> > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
> > Monument.
> > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> > official list of monuments in Italy.
> >
> > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> >
> > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
> > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
> > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
> > photos.
> >
> > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
> > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources).
> > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for
> > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> > activities it is meant to support.
> > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
> > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
> > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
> > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
> > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
> > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
> > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the
> > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising team
> > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be confident
> > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in the
> > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> > collaboratively.
> > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and all
> > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
> > Wikimedia movement.
> >
> > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us opinions
> > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would like
> > to see it become wider and bigger.
> >
> > Andrea Zanni
> > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
     
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Andreas Kolbe-2
Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions:
1) Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is
what Andreas was arguing about, it seems)
2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates
in a timely, orderly and effective fashion

While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think
most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on
the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other
departments of course...

Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
> fundraising ethics here:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
>
> Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia
> online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when
> bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
> fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just
> enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
> everyone".
>
> Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that given
> the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
> manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask them
> about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
>
> We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every
> year:
>
> 2006-2007: $3 million
> 2007-2008: $5 million
> 2008-2009: $9 million
> 2009-2010: $18 million
> 2010-2011: $25 million
> 2011-2012: $38 million
> 2012-2013: $49 million
> 2013-2014: $53 million
> 2014-2015: $75 million
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
>
> By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year,
> just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available for
> everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many others
> host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
> would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If the
> Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's volunteers
> – would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human
> knowledge available for everyone".)
>
> What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
> at the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
> counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
>
> From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
>
> and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
>
> it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same approach
> in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
> this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
>
> So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
> again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online
> and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the
> sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than
> telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
> method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
>
> Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there ever
> been a Request for Comment to find out?
>
> According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
> 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took
> several million more last year than the publicised target.)
>
> We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same
> fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014,
> and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about
> it.
>
> Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an
> honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising
> principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances,
> and what it has done and will do with donors' money.
>
> This is what ethical charities do.
>
> I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a
> good place to begin:
>
>
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword
>
> The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this
> financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to
> make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build
> anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > dear board,
> >
> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
> and
> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
> simple
> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
> WLM
> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones
> i
> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
> as
> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
> better
> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> > doing some work.
> >
> > best,
> > rupert
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone.
> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> > > points.
> > >
> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
> the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
> Italy
> > > in September.
> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> well-known
> > to
> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
> > several
> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
> > live
> > > just for the last days.
> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> > history,
> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so
> in
> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
> matters
> > > of
> > > communication.
> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
> before
> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
> > better
> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days
> > in
> > > the middle of September.
> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> > results
> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > >
> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> > negative
> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> Italia.
> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> uploaded
> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
> > Italian
> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > Museums),
> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> Italiano
> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > >
> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> > > fighting
> > > as WMIT.
> > >
> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
> > being
> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > monuments.
> > >
> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> monuments,
> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> Every.
> > > Monument.
> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > >
> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > >
> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
> > reason
> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
> > 2014
> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
> of
> > > photos.
> > >
> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
> Loves
> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > sources).
> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but,
> > for
> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
> small
> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> competition
> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> pictures
> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
> is
> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
> build
> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
> the
> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to
> > the
> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
> > team
> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > confident
> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
> the
> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> > > collaboratively.
> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF and
> > all
> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> > opinions
> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
> like
> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > >
> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Steinsplitter Wiki
Hi all,

New update:

The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted
in:
* Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
* WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
Wikipedia
* WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
* WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
* WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
fire

They made clear this won't happen again.

To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.

The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.

And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
banner to a month later...

I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept worden
(literally: being shipped of).

At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large ruined
by it.

What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.

And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really
get it.

I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.

And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
people, they do not really get it.

Lessons to be learned:
* Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
movement, they have a target to make.
* Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
weight and use it.
* Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
* Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
* Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
those.
* Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the same
time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you can,
some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
* Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.

But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let the
community publicly decide what should be chosen.

Romaine




2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <[hidden email]>:

> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
>
> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first
> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero
> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but
> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important
> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
>
> Regards,
> Steinsplitter
>
> > From: [hidden email]
> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> > CC: [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > dear board,
> >
> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
> and
> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
> simple
> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
> WLM
> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only ones
> i
> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
> as
> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
> better
> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> > doing some work.
> >
> > best,
> > rupert
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone.
> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> > > points.
> > >
> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
> the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
> Italy
> > > in September.
> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> well-known to
> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
> several
> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
> live
> > > just for the last days.
> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> history,
> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so
> in
> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
> matters
> > > of
> > > communication.
> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
> before
> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
> better
> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
> days in
> > > the middle of September.
> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> results
> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > >
> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> negative
> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> Italia.
> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> uploaded
> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
> Italian
> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> Museums),
> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> Italiano
> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > >
> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> > > fighting
> > > as WMIT.
> > >
> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
> being
> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> monuments.
> > >
> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> monuments,
> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> Every.
> > > Monument.
> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > >
> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > >
> > >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > >
> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
> reason
> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
> 2014
> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
> of
> > > photos.
> > >
> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
> Loves
> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> sources).
> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
> but, for
> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
> small
> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> competition
> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> pictures
> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
> is
> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
> build
> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
> the
> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
> to the
> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
> team
> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> confident
> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
> the
> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> > > collaboratively.
> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
> and all
> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> opinions
> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
> like
> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > >
> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
I think both of these issues are about community involvement, Lodewijk, or
rather the lack of it. The community is simply being stonewalled, on both
issues.

And to be clear, I am absolutely in favour of fundraising. I just want it
done transparently, so donors understand clearly that their donations are
NOT about keeping Wikipedia from blinking out of existence, but about
something different altogether.

I want the Foundation to tell donors what they are doing, in concrete
terms, and to tell it compellingly, so that people are *inspired* to
donate, rather than guilt-tripped into it or made to donate out of fear
Wikipedia might go off-line, or have to host advertisements to survive.

Having said that, I have no problem with it if someone wants to start a new
thread on the latter issue.

Andreas



On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Please let us not mingle two very separate and delicate discussions:
> 1) Whether we should do the extra effort of fundraising at all (this is
> what Andreas was arguing about, it seems)
> 2) If we decide to fundraise, how to involve the community and affiliates
> in a timely, orderly and effective fashion
>
> While we can have lots of discussions about the first question, I think
> most people here will agree that there is a lot of improvement possible on
> the second. And the second question is equally valid for several other
> departments of course...
>
> Communicate early, communicate often, and communicate in a two-way fashion.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Note also that there is an on-going discussion with the WMF Board on
> > fundraising ethics here:
> >
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
> >
> > Every year, readers are told that money is required to "keep Wikipedia
> > online and ad-free another year" (a hangover from ten years ago, when
> > bandwidth was indeed the main cost). At the end of the December 2014
> > fundraiser, donors were told in the thank-you email that "each year, just
> > enough people donate to keep the sum of all human knowledge available for
> > everyone".
> >
> > Every year, members of the community point out here on this list that
> given
> > the Foundation's present-day wealth, these phrasings are misleading and
> > manipulative. They report feeling ashamed when friends and family ask
> them
> > about the Foundation's apparent money problems:
> >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-03-18/Op-ed
> >
> > We all know that the Foundation asks for and receives more money every
> > year:
> >
> > 2006-2007: $3 million
> > 2007-2008: $5 million
> > 2008-2009: $9 million
> > 2009-2010: $18 million
> > 2010-2011: $25 million
> > 2011-2012: $38 million
> > 2012-2013: $49 million
> > 2013-2014: $53 million
> > 2014-2015: $75 million
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial_summary
> >
> > By no stretch of the imagination is it accurate to say that "each year,
> > just enough people donate to keep the sum of human knowledge available
> for
> > everyone". (This is quite apart from the fact that Facebook and many
> others
> > host complete mirrors of Wikipedia, and mirrors like Wikiwand for example
> > would JUMP at the chance of getting Wikipedia's top spot in Google. If
> the
> > Foundation disappeared tomorrow, others – not least Wikipedia's
> volunteers
> > – would stand in line to replace them in "keeping the sum of human
> > knowledge available for everyone".)
> >
> > What donors really have been financing is a huge organisational expansion
> > at the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > WMF staff levels have skyrocketed, from a dozen in 2007 to 278 today (not
> > counting another 100 or so paid chapter staff).
> >
> > From Megan's responses on the page Liam posted a link to a few days ago:
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas
> >
> > and Patricio's responses at the Wikimedia Foundation board noticeboard:
> >
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard#Discussion_of_fundraising_ethics
> >
> > it is abundantly clear that the Foundation intends to use the same
> approach
> > in this year's December fundraiser. Banners observed in testing earlier
> > this month still used the same wording, despite last year's controversy.
> >
> > So, as things stand, fundraising banners and emails in December will once
> > again tell readers that they must donate money to "keep Wikipedia online
> > and ad-free", "keep Wikipedia online and ad-free another year", "keep the
> > sum of all human knowledge available for everyone" etc., rather than
> > telling them where the lion's share of the money actually goes. In this
> > method of fundraising, there is no accountability to the donor.
> >
> > Does the unpaid volunteer community really agree with this? Has there
> ever
> > been a Request for Comment to find out?
> >
> > According to the annual plan, the Foundation's revenue target for the
> > 2015-2016 financial year is $73 million. (Note that the Foundation took
> > several million more last year than the publicised target.)
> >
> > We are now at the end of August. If we don't want to have the same
> > fruitless conversation in December in 2015 that we had in December 2014,
> > and the Decembers before, I suggest now is the time to do something about
> > it.
> >
> > Let's do our best to ensure that this year's main fundraiser will be an
> > honest one, consistent with the letter and spirit of the fundraising
> > principles: open, honest and transparent about the Foundation's finances,
> > and what it has done and will do with donors' money.
> >
> > This is what ethical charities do.
> >
> > I would suggest that Lila's introduction to the 2015/2016 plan would be a
> > good place to begin:
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2015-2016_Annual_Plan#Lila.27s_Foreword
> >
> > The tens of millions of dollars the Foundation aims to collect this
> > financial year can potentially do a lot of good. But shouldn't we try to
> > make sure they're not collected under false pretences? You can't build
> > anything of lasting value on a rotten foundation.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, rupert THURNER <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > dear board,
> > >
> > > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> > > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
> > and
> > > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
> > simple
> > > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
> > WLM
> > > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered
> by
> > > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
> ones
> > i
> > > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
> > as
> > > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
> > better
> > > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to
> the
> > > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> > > doing some work.
> > >
> > > best,
> > > rupert
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello everyone.
> > > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> > > > points.
> > > >
> > > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> > > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
> > the
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
> > Italy
> > > > in September.
> > > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > well-known
> > > to
> > > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
> > > several
> > > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
> > > live
> > > > just for the last days.
> > > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> > > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> > > history,
> > > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
> so
> > in
> > > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
> > matters
> > > > of
> > > > communication.
> > > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
> the
> > > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
> > before
> > > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> > > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
> > > better
> > > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
> days
> > > in
> > > > the middle of September.
> > > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
> not
> > > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> > > results
> > > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > >
> > > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> > > negative
> > > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> > Italia.
> > > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> > uploaded
> > > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of
> our
> > > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> > > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
> > > Italian
> > > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > > Museums),
> > > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> > Italiano
> > > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> > > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> > > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > >
> > > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> > > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> > > > fighting
> > > > as WMIT.
> > > >
> > > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
> > > being
> > > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > > monuments.
> > > >
> > > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > monuments,
> > > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> > Every.
> > > > Monument.
> > > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> > > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > >
> > > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > >
> > > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> > > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
> > > reason
> > > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
> > > 2014
> > > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
> > of
> > > > photos.
> > > >
> > > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
> > Loves
> > > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > > sources).
> > > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
> but,
> > > for
> > > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> > > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
> > small
> > > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > competition
> > > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> > pictures
> > > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
> > is
> > > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
> > build
> > > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
> > the
> > > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
> to
> > > the
> > > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have
> a
> > > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
> > > team
> > > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > > confident
> > > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
> > the
> > > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> > > > collaboratively.
> > > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
> and
> > > all
> > > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
> the
> > > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > >
> > > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> > > opinions
> > > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
> > like
> > > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > >
> > > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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