[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hi all,

Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this situation. I
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September, and
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the Wikimedia
movement?

To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

Romaine

2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all,
>
> New update:
>
> The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted
> in:
> * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
> have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
> Wikipedia
> * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
> fire
>
> They made clear this won't happen again.
>
> To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what
> we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount
> of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
>
> The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves
> Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to
> Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small
> link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not
> believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
> project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core
> people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have
> no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
>
> And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
> banner to a month later...
>
> I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> worden (literally: being shipped of).
>
> At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> ruined by it.
>
> What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of
> WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty
> promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
>
> And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
> people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really
> get it.
>
> I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who
> are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what
> Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the
> world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to
> explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
>
> And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
> people, they do not really get it.
>
> Lessons to be learned:
> * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
> movement, they have a target to make.
> * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
> weight and use it.
> * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
> balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
> those.
> * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
> same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you
> can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
> think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the
> proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this
> matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
>
> But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let
> the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
>
> 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <[hidden email]
> >:
>
>> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
>>
>> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first
>> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero
>> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but
>> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important
>> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Steinsplitter
>>
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
>> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>> > CC: [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
>> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>> >
>> > dear board,
>> >
>> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
>> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
>> and
>> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
>> simple
>> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
>> WLM
>> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
>> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
>> ones i
>> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
>> as
>> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
>> better
>> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
>> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
>> > doing some work.
>> >
>> > best,
>> > rupert
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello everyone.
>> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
>> > > Wikimedia Italia.
>> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
>> > > points.
>> > >
>> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
>> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
>> the
>> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
>> Italy
>> > > in September.
>> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
>> well-known to
>> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
>> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
>> several
>> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
>> live
>> > > just for the last days.
>> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
>> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
>> history,
>> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
>> so in
>> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
>> matters
>> > > of
>> > > communication.
>> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
>> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
>> the
>> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
>> before
>> > > the beginning of WLM.
>> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
>> > > conversation and negotiation.
>> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
>> better
>> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
>> days in
>> > > the middle of September.
>> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
>> not
>> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
>> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
>> results
>> > > for WLM in 2015.
>> > >
>> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
>> negative
>> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
>> Italia.
>> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
>> uploaded
>> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
>> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
>> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
>> Italian
>> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
>> Museums),
>> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
>> Italiano
>> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
>> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
>> > > because we have higher stakes.
>> > >
>> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
>> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
>> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
>> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
>> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
>> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
>> > > fighting
>> > > as WMIT.
>> > >
>> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
>> being
>> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
>> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
>> monuments.
>> > >
>> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
>> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
>> monuments,
>> > > even if copyright has expired.
>> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
>> Every.
>> > > Monument.
>> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
>> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
>> > >
>> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
>> > >
>> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
>> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
>> reason
>> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
>> 2014
>> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
>> of
>> > > photos.
>> > >
>> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
>> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
>> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
>> Loves
>> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
>> sources).
>> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
>> but, for
>> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
>> > > activities it is meant to support.
>> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
>> small
>> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
>> competition
>> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
>> pictures
>> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
>> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
>> is
>> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
>> build
>> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
>> the
>> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
>> to the
>> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
>> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
>> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
>> team
>> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
>> confident
>> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
>> the
>> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
>> > > collaboratively.
>> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
>> and all
>> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
>> the
>> > > Wikimedia movement.
>> > >
>> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
>> opinions
>> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
>> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
>> like
>> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
>> > >
>> > > Andrea Zanni
>> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Steinsplitter Wiki
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!

So we can see what the community thinks about this.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Hi all,
>
> Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is
> time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this situation. I
> have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September, and
> the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the Wikimedia
> movement?
>
> To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> have set up this Request for Comment:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > New update:
> >
> > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it resulted
> > in:
> > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
> > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
> > Wikipedia
> > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social media
> > fire
> >
> > They made clear this won't happen again.
> >
> > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again, what
> > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the amount
> > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the time.
> >
> > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki Loves
> > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most visitors to
> > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a small
> > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do not
> > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
> > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the core
> > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I have
> > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> >
> > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
> > banner to a month later...
> >
> > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> >
> > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> > ruined by it.
> >
> > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team of
> > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many empty
> > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> >
> > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
> > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not really
> > get it.
> >
> > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF who
> > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain what
> > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest in the
> > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so friendly to
> > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> >
> > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by multiple
> > people, they do not really get it.
> >
> > Lessons to be learned:
> > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for the
> > movement, they have a target to make.
> > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a lot of
> > weight and use it.
> > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner) is a
> > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed by
> > those.
> > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
> > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you
> > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
> > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback on the
> > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in this
> > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> >
> > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let
> > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <[hidden email]
> > >:
> >
> >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> >>
> >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first
> >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero
> >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other stuff, but
> >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor important
> >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Steinsplitter
> >>
> >> > From: [hidden email]
> >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > CC: [hidden email];
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >> >
> >> > dear board,
> >> >
> >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to spoil
> >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF cannot
> >> and
> >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
> >> simple
> >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner for
> >> WLM
> >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is covered by
> >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
> >> ones i
> >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy. if we
> >> as
> >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
> >> better
> >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights to the
> >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the people
> >> > doing some work.
> >> >
> >> > best,
> >> > rupert
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]
> >> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello everyone.
> >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
> >> > > points.
> >> > >
> >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
> >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that
> >> the
> >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in
> >> Italy
> >> > > in September.
> >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> >> well-known to
> >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for
> >> several
> >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went
> >> live
> >> > > just for the last days.
> >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
> >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> >> history,
> >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written
> >> so in
> >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
> >> matters
> >> > > of
> >> > > communication.
> >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in
> >> the
> >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
> >> before
> >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
> >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just
> >> better
> >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
> >> days in
> >> > > the middle of September.
> >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does
> >> not
> >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> >> results
> >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> >> > >
> >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> >> negative
> >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> >> Italia.
> >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> >> uploaded
> >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
> >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
> >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of
> >> Italian
> >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> >> Museums),
> >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> >> Italiano
> >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
> >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
> >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> >> > >
> >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
> >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are
> >> > > fighting
> >> > > as WMIT.
> >> > >
> >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond
> >> being
> >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> >> monuments.
> >> > >
> >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> >> monuments,
> >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> >> Every.
> >> > > Monument.
> >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
> >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> >> > >
> >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> >> > >
> >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
> >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the
> >> reason
> >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In
> >> 2014
> >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number
> >> of
> >> > > photos.
> >> > >
> >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki
> >> Loves
> >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> >> sources).
> >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
> >> but, for
> >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
> >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
> >> small
> >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> >> competition
> >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> >> pictures
> >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it
> >> is
> >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
> >> build
> >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all
> >> the
> >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career
> >> to the
> >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
> >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF fundraising
> >> team
> >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> >> confident
> >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and that in
> >> the
> >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work more
> >> > > collaboratively.
> >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with WMF
> >> and all
> >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of all
> >> the
> >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> >> > >
> >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> >> opinions
> >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we would
> >> like
> >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> >> > >
> >> > > Andrea Zanni
> >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> > > [hidden email]
> >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrea Zanni-2
Hello everybody.
I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
continued a very honest and direct conversation.
I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
welcomed with the respect it deserves.

Best regards

Andrea


On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
>
> So we can see what the community thinks about this.
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it is
> > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> situation. I
> > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
> and
> > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> Wikimedia
> > movement?
> >
> > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> > have set up this Request for Comment:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > New update:
> > >
> > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> resulted
> > > in:
> > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we will
> > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page of
> > > Wikipedia
> > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> media
> > > fire
> > >
> > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > >
> > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
> what
> > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> amount
> > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> time.
> > >
> > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
> Loves
> > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> visitors to
> > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> small
> > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
> not
> > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest
> > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to the
> core
> > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
> have
> > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > >
> > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the fundraising
> > > banner to a month later...
> > >
> > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > >
> > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> > > ruined by it.
> > >
> > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising team
> of
> > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> empty
> > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > >
> > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> multiple
> > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
> really
> > > get it.
> > >
> > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from WMF
> who
> > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
> what
> > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
> in the
> > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> friendly to
> > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > >
> > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> multiple
> > > people, they do not really get it.
> > >
> > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
> the
> > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
> lot of
> > > weight and use it.
> > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
> is a
> > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not impressed
> by
> > > those.
> > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at the
> > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes you
> > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and even
> > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
> on the
> > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience in
> this
> > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > >
> > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, let
> > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > >
> > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > >>
> > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer first
> > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly zero
> > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> stuff, but
> > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> important
> > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Steinsplitter
> > >>
> > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> Monuments
> > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >> >
> > >> > dear board,
> > >> >
> > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
> spoil
> > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> cannot
> > >> and
> > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there is a
> > >> simple
> > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
> for
> > >> WLM
> > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> covered by
> > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the only
> > >> ones i
> > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> if we
> > >> as
> > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it is
> > >> better
> > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
> to the
> > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> people
> > >> > doing some work.
> > >> >
> > >> > best,
> > >> > rupert
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> [hidden email]
> > >> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
> > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> important
> > >> > > points.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
> by
> > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
> that
> > >> the
> > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
> in
> > >> Italy
> > >> > > in September.
> > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > >> well-known to
> > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed
> for
> > >> several
> > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
> went
> > >> live
> > >> > > just for the last days.
> > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> September.
> > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the
> > >> history,
> > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> written
> > >> so in
> > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in
> > >> matters
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > communication.
> > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> in
> > >> the
> > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks
> > >> before
> > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> constructive
> > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
> just
> > >> better
> > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few
> > >> days in
> > >> > > the middle of September.
> > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
> does
> > >> not
> > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected
> > >> results
> > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear
> > >> negative
> > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> > >> Italia.
> > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> > >> uploaded
> > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
> of our
> > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> cultural
> > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
> of
> > >> Italian
> > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > >> Museums),
> > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> > >> Italiano
> > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> spends
> > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money,
> but
> > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
> > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
> > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
> > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
> the
> > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
> are
> > >> > > fighting
> > >> > > as WMIT.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> beyond
> > >> being
> > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > >> monuments.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > >> monuments,
> > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> > >> Every.
> > >> > > Monument.
> > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is
> no
> > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
> stats:
> > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
> the
> > >> reason
> > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> each. In
> > >> 2014
> > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
> number
> > >> of
> > >> > > photos.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
> > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
> Wiki
> > >> Loves
> > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > >> sources).
> > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
> > >> but, for
> > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
> very
> > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a
> > >> small
> > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > >> competition
> > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> > >> pictures
> > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> when it
> > >> is
> > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to
> > >> build
> > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
> all
> > >> the
> > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> career
> > >> to the
> > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
> have a
> > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> fundraising
> > >> team
> > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > >> confident
> > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> that in
> > >> the
> > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
> more
> > >> > > collaboratively.
> > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
> WMF
> > >> and all
> > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
> all
> > >> the
> > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave us
> > >> opinions
> > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
> would
> > >> like
> > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > >> ,
> > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
while I ma in change of the banners.

How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?

Romaine

2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:

> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
>
> I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> welcomed with the respect it deserves.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrea
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> >
> > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > To: [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
> is
> > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > situation. I
> > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
> > and
> > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > Wikimedia
> > > movement?
> > >
> > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > New update:
> > > >
> > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > resulted
> > > > in:
> > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> will
> > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
> of
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > media
> > > > fire
> > > >
> > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > >
> > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
> > what
> > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> > amount
> > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
> > Loves
> > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > visitors to
> > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > small
> > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
> > not
> > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> largest
> > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
> the
> > core
> > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
> > have
> > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > >
> > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> fundraising
> > > > banner to a month later...
> > > >
> > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > >
> > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> > > > ruined by it.
> > > >
> > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> team
> > of
> > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > empty
> > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
> > really
> > > > get it.
> > > >
> > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> WMF
> > who
> > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
> > what
> > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
> > in the
> > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > friendly to
> > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > >
> > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
> > the
> > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
> > lot of
> > > > weight and use it.
> > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
> > is a
> > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> impressed
> > by
> > > > those.
> > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> the
> > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
> you
> > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> even
> > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
> > on the
> > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
> in
> > this
> > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > >
> > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
> let
> > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > >>
> > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> first
> > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
> zero
> > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > stuff, but
> > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > important
> > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > >>
> > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >> >
> > > >> > dear board,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
> > spoil
> > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > cannot
> > > >> and
> > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> is a
> > > >> simple
> > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
> > for
> > > >> WLM
> > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > covered by
> > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> only
> > > >> ones i
> > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> > if we
> > > >> as
> > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
> is
> > > >> better
> > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
> > to the
> > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > people
> > > >> > doing some work.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > best,
> > > >> > rupert
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >> >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
> for
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > important
> > > >> > > points.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
> > by
> > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
> > that
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
> > in
> > > >> Italy
> > > >> > > in September.
> > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > >> well-known to
> > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed
> > for
> > > >> several
> > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
> > went
> > > >> live
> > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > September.
> > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> the
> > > >> history,
> > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > written
> > > >> so in
> > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
> in
> > > >> matters
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > communication.
> > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> weeks
> > > >> before
> > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > constructive
> > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
> > just
> > > >> better
> > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
> few
> > > >> days in
> > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
> > does
> > > >> not
> > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> expected
> > > >> results
> > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> clear
> > > >> negative
> > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> > > >> Italia.
> > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> > > >> uploaded
> > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
> > of our
> > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > cultural
> > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
> > of
> > > >> Italian
> > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > > >> Museums),
> > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> > > >> Italiano
> > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > spends
> > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> money,
> > but
> > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> renowned
> > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> McCurry (
> > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> Fontana (
> > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
> > the
> > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
> > are
> > > >> > > fighting
> > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > beyond
> > > >> being
> > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > > >> monuments.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > > >> monuments,
> > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> For.
> > > >> Every.
> > > >> > > Monument.
> > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
> is
> > no
> > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
> > stats:
> > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
> > the
> > > >> reason
> > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > each. In
> > > >> 2014
> > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
> > number
> > > >> of
> > > >> > > photos.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
> > Wiki
> > > >> Loves
> > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > > >> sources).
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> movement:
> > > >> but, for
> > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
> > very
> > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> in a
> > > >> small
> > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > >> competition
> > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> > > >> pictures
> > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > when it
> > > >> is
> > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
> to
> > > >> build
> > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > career
> > > >> to the
> > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
> > have a
> > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > fundraising
> > > >> team
> > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > > >> confident
> > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > that in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
> > more
> > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
> > WMF
> > > >> and all
> > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
> us
> > > >> opinions
> > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
> > would
> > > >> like
> > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > >> ,
> > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
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> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> <
> >
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> > >
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
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> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
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> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

MF-Warburg-2
Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?

2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:

> The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
> while I ma in change of the banners.
>
> How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> Monuments
> > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
> > is
> > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > situation. I
> > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> organising
> > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
> September,
> > > and
> > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > movement?
> > > >
> > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> situation, I
> > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > New update:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > resulted
> > > > > in:
> > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > will
> > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> Page
> > of
> > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > > media
> > > > > fire
> > > > >
> > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> again,
> > > what
> > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> > > amount
> > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> Wiki
> > > Loves
> > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > visitors to
> > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > > small
> > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
> do
> > > not
> > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
> A
> > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > largest
> > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
> > the
> > > core
> > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
> I
> > > have
> > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> core
> > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > >
> > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > fundraising
> > > > > banner to a month later...
> > > > >
> > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> afgescheept
> > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > >
> > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> large
> > > > > ruined by it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > team
> > > of
> > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > > empty
> > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
> > > really
> > > > > get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > WMF
> > > who
> > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
> > > what
> > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> the
> > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> contest
> > > in the
> > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > friendly to
> > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> for
> > > the
> > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
> > > lot of
> > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> banner)
> > > is a
> > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > impressed
> > > by
> > > > > those.
> > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > the
> > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
> > you
> > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > even
> > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> feedback
> > > on the
> > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
> > in
> > > this
> > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
> > let
> > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > first
> > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
> > zero
> > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > > stuff, but
> > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > important
> > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> to
> > > spoil
> > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > > cannot
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > is a
> > > > >> simple
> > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> banner
> > > for
> > > > >> WLM
> > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > covered by
> > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > only
> > > > >> ones i
> > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> policy.
> > > if we
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> it
> > is
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> rights
> > > to the
> > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > > people
> > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > best,
> > > > >> > rupert
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
> > for
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > important
> > > > >> > > points.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> contacted
> > > by
> > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> explained
> > > that
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> campaign
> > > in
> > > > >> Italy
> > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > > >> well-known to
> > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> discussed
> > > for
> > > > >> several
> > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> banners
> > > went
> > > > >> live
> > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > September.
> > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > the
> > > > >> history,
> > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > written
> > > > >> so in
> > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
> > in
> > > > >> matters
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
> appeared
> > > in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > weeks
> > > > >> before
> > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > constructive
> > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> it's
> > > just
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
> > few
> > > > >> days in
> > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
> > > does
> > > > >> not
> > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > expected
> > > > >> results
> > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > clear
> > > > >> negative
> > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> Wikimedia
> > > > >> Italia.
> > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> and
> > > > >> uploaded
> > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> front
> > > of our
> > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > cultural
> > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> Federation
> > > of
> > > > >> Italian
> > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
> of
> > > > >> Museums),
> > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> Club
> > > > >> Italiano
> > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > > spends
> > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > money,
> > > but
> > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > renowned
> > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> > McCurry (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > Fontana (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> from
> > > the
> > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> we
> > > are
> > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > > beyond
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> create
> > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures
> of
> > > > >> monuments.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > > > >> monuments,
> > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > For.
> > > > >> Every.
> > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
> > is
> > > no
> > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
> > > stats:
> > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> is
> > > the
> > > > >> reason
> > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > each. In
> > > > >> 2014
> > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
> > > number
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > Wikimedia
> > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
> > > Wiki
> > > > >> Loves
> > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> other
> > > > >> sources).
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > movement:
> > > > >> but, for
> > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> the
> > > very
> > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > in a
> > > > >> small
> > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > >> competition
> > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
> of
> > > > >> pictures
> > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > > when it
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> money
> > to
> > > > >> build
> > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> for
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > > career
> > > > >> to the
> > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> also
> > > have a
> > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > fundraising
> > > > >> team
> > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
> be
> > > > >> confident
> > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > > that in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> work
> > > more
> > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> with
> > > WMF
> > > > >> and all
> > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> of
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> gave
> > us
> > > > >> opinions
> > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
> > > would
> > > > >> like
> > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > >> ,
> > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > >
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
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> > >
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> > > [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andreas Kolbe-2
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:26 PM, MF-Warburg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
>
> 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
>
> > The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
> > while I ma in change of the banners.
> >
> > How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hello everybody.
> > > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> > run
> > > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> > >
> > > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> > worked
> > > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> > >
> > > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Andrea
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > > >
> > > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > > situation. I
> > > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > organising
> > > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > September,
> > > > and
> > > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > movement?
> > > > >
> > > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > situation, I
> > > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New update:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > > resulted
> > > > > > in:
> > > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
> we
> > > will
> > > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > Page
> > > of
> > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
> social
> > > > media
> > > > > > fire
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > again,
> > > > what
> > > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> the
> > > > amount
> > > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> the
> > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > Wiki
> > > > Loves
> > > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > > visitors to
> > > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
> a
> > > > small
> > > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
> I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
> work.
> > A
> > > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > largest
> > > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
> to
> > > the
> > > > core
> > > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
> fire,
> > I
> > > > have
> > > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > core
> > > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > fundraising
> > > > > > banner to a month later...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > afgescheept
> > > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > large
> > > > > > ruined by it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > team
> > > > of
> > > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
> many
> > > > empty
> > > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> not
> > > > really
> > > > > > get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
> from
> > > WMF
> > > > who
> > > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> explain
> > > > what
> > > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > the
> > > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > contest
> > > > in the
> > > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > > friendly to
> > > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They
> have a
> > > > lot of
> > > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > banner)
> > > > is a
> > > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > impressed
> > > > by
> > > > > > those.
> > > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
> Yes
> > > you
> > > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication,
> and
> > > even
> > > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > feedback
> > > > on the
> > > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> experience
> > > in
> > > > this
> > > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> banner,
> > > let
> > > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Romaine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > first
> > > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> exactly
> > > zero
> > > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > > > stuff, but
> > > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > > important
> > > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Regards,
> > > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > > Monuments
> > > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > to
> > > > spoil
> > > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
> WMF
> > > > cannot
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
> there
> > > is a
> > > > > >> simple
> > > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > banner
> > > > for
> > > > > >> WLM
> > > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > > covered by
> > > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > only
> > > > > >> ones i
> > > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> > policy.
> > > > if we
> > > > > >> as
> > > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > rights
> > > > to the
> > > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
> the
> > > > people
> > > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > best,
> > > > > >> > rupert
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> situation
> > > for
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > > important
> > > > > >> > > points.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > contacted
> > > > by
> > > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > explained
> > > > that
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > campaign
> > > > in
> > > > > >> Italy
> > > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
> is
> > > > > >> well-known to
> > > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > discussed
> > > > for
> > > > > >> several
> > > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > banners
> > > > went
> > > > > >> live
> > > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > > September.
> > > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
> Given
> > > the
> > > > > >> history,
> > > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > > written
> > > > > >> so in
> > > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> negligible
> > > in
> > > > > >> matters
> > > > > >> > > of
> > > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
> > appeared
> > > > in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > weeks
> > > > > >> before
> > > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > > constructive
> > > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > it's
> > > > just
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
> just a
> > > few
> > > > > >> days in
> > > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> this
> > > > does
> > > > > >> not
> > > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > expected
> > > > > >> results
> > > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > clear
> > > > > >> negative
> > > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> Italia.
> > > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > and
> > > > > >> uploaded
> > > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > front
> > > > of our
> > > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > > cultural
> > > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > Federation
> > > > of
> > > > > >> Italian
> > > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
> Council
> > of
> > > > > >> Museums),
> > > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > Club
> > > > > >> Italiano
> > > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
> WMIT
> > > > spends
> > > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > money,
> > > > but
> > > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > renowned
> > > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> > > McCurry (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > Fontana (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > we
> > > > are
> > > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
> goes
> > > > beyond
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > create
> > > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> pictures
> > of
> > > > > >> monuments.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> of
> > > > > >> monuments,
> > > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > > For.
> > > > > >> Every.
> > > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> There
> > > is
> > > > no
> > > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> Italy
> > > > stats:
> > > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > >> reason
> > > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > > each. In
> > > > > >> 2014
> > > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> of
> > > > number
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
> also
> > > > Wiki
> > > > > >> Loves
> > > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > other
> > > > > >> sources).
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > > movement:
> > > > > >> but, for
> > > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > the
> > > > very
> > > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
> editathon
> > > in a
> > > > > >> small
> > > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > > >> competition
> > > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
> thousands
> > of
> > > > > >> pictures
> > > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
> especially
> > > > when it
> > > > > >> is
> > > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > money
> > > to
> > > > > >> build
> > > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > for
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
> their
> > > > career
> > > > > >> to the
> > > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > also
> > > > have a
> > > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > > fundraising
> > > > > >> team
> > > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
> to
> > be
> > > > > >> confident
> > > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
> and
> > > > that in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > work
> > > > more
> > > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > with
> > > > WMF
> > > > > >> and all
> > > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > gave
> > > us
> > > > > >> opinions
> > > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> we
> > > > would
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> ,
> > > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > > > > >>
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> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > >> <
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> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by MF-Warburg-2
Yes, sorry, they did *not* communicate it with me.

They finally came to a great decision, it would have been perfect if they
had just made a public announcement here.

Romaine



2015-08-31 0:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <[hidden email]>:

> Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
>
> 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
>
> > The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
> > while I ma in change of the banners.
> >
> > How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hello everybody.
> > > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> > run
> > > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> > >
> > > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> > worked
> > > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> > >
> > > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Andrea
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > > >
> > > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > > situation. I
> > > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > organising
> > > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > September,
> > > > and
> > > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > movement?
> > > > >
> > > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > situation, I
> > > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New update:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > > resulted
> > > > > > in:
> > > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
> we
> > > will
> > > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > Page
> > > of
> > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
> social
> > > > media
> > > > > > fire
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > again,
> > > > what
> > > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> the
> > > > amount
> > > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> the
> > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > Wiki
> > > > Loves
> > > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > > visitors to
> > > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
> a
> > > > small
> > > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
> I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
> work.
> > A
> > > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > largest
> > > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
> to
> > > the
> > > > core
> > > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
> fire,
> > I
> > > > have
> > > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > core
> > > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > fundraising
> > > > > > banner to a month later...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > afgescheept
> > > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > large
> > > > > > ruined by it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > team
> > > > of
> > > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
> many
> > > > empty
> > > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> not
> > > > really
> > > > > > get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
> from
> > > WMF
> > > > who
> > > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> explain
> > > > what
> > > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > the
> > > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > contest
> > > > in the
> > > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > > friendly to
> > > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They
> have a
> > > > lot of
> > > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > banner)
> > > > is a
> > > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > impressed
> > > > by
> > > > > > those.
> > > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
> Yes
> > > you
> > > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication,
> and
> > > even
> > > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > feedback
> > > > on the
> > > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> experience
> > > in
> > > > this
> > > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> banner,
> > > let
> > > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Romaine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > first
> > > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> exactly
> > > zero
> > > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > > > stuff, but
> > > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > > important
> > > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Regards,
> > > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > > Monuments
> > > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > to
> > > > spoil
> > > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
> WMF
> > > > cannot
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
> there
> > > is a
> > > > > >> simple
> > > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > banner
> > > > for
> > > > > >> WLM
> > > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > > covered by
> > > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > only
> > > > > >> ones i
> > > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> > policy.
> > > > if we
> > > > > >> as
> > > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > rights
> > > > to the
> > > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
> the
> > > > people
> > > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > best,
> > > > > >> > rupert
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> situation
> > > for
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > > important
> > > > > >> > > points.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > contacted
> > > > by
> > > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > explained
> > > > that
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > campaign
> > > > in
> > > > > >> Italy
> > > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
> is
> > > > > >> well-known to
> > > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > discussed
> > > > for
> > > > > >> several
> > > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > banners
> > > > went
> > > > > >> live
> > > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > > September.
> > > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
> Given
> > > the
> > > > > >> history,
> > > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > > written
> > > > > >> so in
> > > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> negligible
> > > in
> > > > > >> matters
> > > > > >> > > of
> > > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
> > appeared
> > > > in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > weeks
> > > > > >> before
> > > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > > constructive
> > > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > it's
> > > > just
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
> just a
> > > few
> > > > > >> days in
> > > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> this
> > > > does
> > > > > >> not
> > > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > expected
> > > > > >> results
> > > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > clear
> > > > > >> negative
> > > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> Italia.
> > > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > and
> > > > > >> uploaded
> > > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > front
> > > > of our
> > > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > > cultural
> > > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > Federation
> > > > of
> > > > > >> Italian
> > > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
> Council
> > of
> > > > > >> Museums),
> > > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > Club
> > > > > >> Italiano
> > > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
> WMIT
> > > > spends
> > > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > money,
> > > > but
> > > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > renowned
> > > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> > > McCurry (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > Fontana (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > we
> > > > are
> > > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
> goes
> > > > beyond
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > create
> > > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> pictures
> > of
> > > > > >> monuments.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> of
> > > > > >> monuments,
> > > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > > For.
> > > > > >> Every.
> > > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> There
> > > is
> > > > no
> > > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> Italy
> > > > stats:
> > > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > >> reason
> > > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > > each. In
> > > > > >> 2014
> > > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> of
> > > > number
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
> also
> > > > Wiki
> > > > > >> Loves
> > > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > other
> > > > > >> sources).
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > > movement:
> > > > > >> but, for
> > > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > the
> > > > very
> > > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
> editathon
> > > in a
> > > > > >> small
> > > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > > >> competition
> > > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
> thousands
> > of
> > > > > >> pictures
> > > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
> especially
> > > > when it
> > > > > >> is
> > > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > money
> > > to
> > > > > >> build
> > > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > for
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
> their
> > > > career
> > > > > >> to the
> > > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > also
> > > > have a
> > > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > > fundraising
> > > > > >> team
> > > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
> to
> > be
> > > > > >> confident
> > > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
> and
> > > > that in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > work
> > > > more
> > > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > with
> > > > WMF
> > > > > >> and all
> > > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > gave
> > > us
> > > > > >> opinions
> > > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> we
> > > > would
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> ,
> > > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > > >
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
>


The following was posted a little over four hours after the RfC went live
(and 12 minutes before your post here):

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner&diff=13392410&oldid=13392365

Thanks to Romaine for greasing the wheels of communication!






>
> I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> welcomed with the respect it deserves.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrea


(Please ignore the previous empty message of mine, which was sent in error.
- A.)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Pine W
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.

Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about
some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.

Pine
On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andrea Zanni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
>
> I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> welcomed with the respect it deserves.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrea
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> >
> > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > To: [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
> is
> > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > situation. I
> > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
> > and
> > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > Wikimedia
> > > movement?
> > >
> > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > New update:
> > > >
> > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > resulted
> > > > in:
> > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> will
> > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
> of
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > media
> > > > fire
> > > >
> > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > >
> > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
> > what
> > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> > amount
> > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
> > Loves
> > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > visitors to
> > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > small
> > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
> > not
> > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> largest
> > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
> the
> > core
> > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
> > have
> > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > >
> > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> fundraising
> > > > banner to a month later...
> > > >
> > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > >
> > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> > > > ruined by it.
> > > >
> > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> team
> > of
> > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > empty
> > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
> > really
> > > > get it.
> > > >
> > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> WMF
> > who
> > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
> > what
> > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
> > in the
> > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > friendly to
> > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > >
> > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
> > the
> > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
> > lot of
> > > > weight and use it.
> > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
> > is a
> > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> impressed
> > by
> > > > those.
> > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> the
> > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
> you
> > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> even
> > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
> > on the
> > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
> in
> > this
> > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > >
> > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
> let
> > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > >>
> > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> first
> > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
> zero
> > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > stuff, but
> > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > important
> > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > >>
> > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >> >
> > > >> > dear board,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
> > spoil
> > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > cannot
> > > >> and
> > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> is a
> > > >> simple
> > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
> > for
> > > >> WLM
> > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > covered by
> > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> only
> > > >> ones i
> > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> > if we
> > > >> as
> > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
> is
> > > >> better
> > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
> > to the
> > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > people
> > > >> > doing some work.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > best,
> > > >> > rupert
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >> >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
> for
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > important
> > > >> > > points.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
> > by
> > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
> > that
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
> > in
> > > >> Italy
> > > >> > > in September.
> > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > >> well-known to
> > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed
> > for
> > > >> several
> > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
> > went
> > > >> live
> > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > September.
> > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> the
> > > >> history,
> > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > written
> > > >> so in
> > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
> in
> > > >> matters
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > communication.
> > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> weeks
> > > >> before
> > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > constructive
> > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
> > just
> > > >> better
> > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
> few
> > > >> days in
> > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
> > does
> > > >> not
> > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> expected
> > > >> results
> > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> clear
> > > >> negative
> > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> > > >> Italia.
> > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> > > >> uploaded
> > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
> > of our
> > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > cultural
> > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
> > of
> > > >> Italian
> > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > > >> Museums),
> > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> > > >> Italiano
> > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > spends
> > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> money,
> > but
> > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> renowned
> > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> McCurry (
> > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> Fontana (
> > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
> > the
> > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
> > are
> > > >> > > fighting
> > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > beyond
> > > >> being
> > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > > >> monuments.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > > >> monuments,
> > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> For.
> > > >> Every.
> > > >> > > Monument.
> > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
> is
> > no
> > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
> > stats:
> > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
> > the
> > > >> reason
> > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > each. In
> > > >> 2014
> > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
> > number
> > > >> of
> > > >> > > photos.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
> > Wiki
> > > >> Loves
> > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > > >> sources).
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> movement:
> > > >> but, for
> > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
> > very
> > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> in a
> > > >> small
> > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > >> competition
> > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> > > >> pictures
> > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > when it
> > > >> is
> > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
> to
> > > >> build
> > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > career
> > > >> to the
> > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
> > have a
> > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > fundraising
> > > >> team
> > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > > >> confident
> > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > that in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
> > more
> > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
> > WMF
> > > >> and all
> > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
> us
> > > >> opinions
> > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
> > would
> > > >> like
> > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > >> ,
> > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by Craig Franklin
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
> casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
> existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
> banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
> page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
> referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
> you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top
> of articles can't be beat.
>

 My experience has been quite the opposite. The easiest, maybe, but the
conversion rate is poor - WLM is for photographers, and putting banners on
Wikipedia is not a particularly good way of reaching photographers. In WLM
Hungary a few years ago we had a deal with a photo sharing site (a crappy
deal, for other reasons), they ran the WLM banner, and it had a ten times
higher conversion rate (IIRC we counted people navigating to the upload
page as conversions). Even though they had way smaller audience than
Wikipedia, half the uploads ended up coming from them.

I would recommend organizers to be creative and not rely on CentralNotice
too much - reach out to photography discussion groups, photographer
associations, photo sharing sites and any other places where people with an
interest in taking pictures might turn up.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Pine W
It would be interesting to contact DPReview and Flickr to ask if they'd
agree to promote this campaign.

Pine
On Aug 31, 2015 12:36 AM, "Gergo Tisza" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
> > casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
> > existing communication channels.  This is why the Fundraising team run
> > banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
> > page messages, I would imagine.  The communications channels you're
> > referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
> > you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the
> top
> > of articles can't be beat.
> >
>
>  My experience has been quite the opposite. The easiest, maybe, but the
> conversion rate is poor - WLM is for photographers, and putting banners on
> Wikipedia is not a particularly good way of reaching photographers. In WLM
> Hungary a few years ago we had a deal with a photo sharing site (a crappy
> deal, for other reasons), they ran the WLM banner, and it had a ten times
> higher conversion rate (IIRC we counted people navigating to the upload
> page as conversions). Even though they had way smaller audience than
> Wikipedia, half the uploads ended up coming from them.
>
> I would recommend organizers to be creative and not rely on CentralNotice
> too much - reach out to photography discussion groups, photographer
> associations, photo sharing sites and any other places where people with an
> interest in taking pictures might turn up.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Steinsplitter Wiki
In reply to this post by Pine W
WMF has a loot of money, i am not sure if the goal of this time is really needed.

> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:53:21 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Thank you, Andrea, Romaine, Lisa, and Luis.
>
> Lisa, if you're interested, I'm happy to brainstorm with you off-list about
> some alternatives to help WMF Fundraising meet its goals.
>
> Pine
> On Aug 30, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andrea Zanni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it
> > is
> > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > situation. I
> > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments organising
> > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in September,
> > > and
> > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > movement?
> > > >
> > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this situation, I
> > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > >
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > New update:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > resulted
> > > > > in:
> > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > will
> > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main Page
> > of
> > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > > media
> > > > > fire
> > > > >
> > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen again,
> > > what
> > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the
> > > amount
> > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. Wiki
> > > Loves
> > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > visitors to
> > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > > small
> > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I do
> > > not
> > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. A
> > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > largest
> > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to
> > the
> > > core
> > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, I
> > > have
> > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the core
> > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > >
> > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > fundraising
> > > > > banner to a month later...
> > > > >
> > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: afgescheept
> > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > >
> > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is large
> > > > > ruined by it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > team
> > > of
> > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > > empty
> > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not
> > > really
> > > > > get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > WMF
> > > who
> > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain
> > > what
> > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is the
> > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo contest
> > > in the
> > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > friendly to
> > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position for
> > > the
> > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a
> > > lot of
> > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking banner)
> > > is a
> > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > impressed
> > > by
> > > > > those.
> > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > the
> > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes
> > you
> > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > even
> > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and feedback
> > > on the
> > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience
> > in
> > > this
> > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner,
> > let
> > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > first
> > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly
> > zero
> > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > > stuff, but
> > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > important
> > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons to
> > > spoil
> > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > > cannot
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > is a
> > > > >> simple
> > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined banner
> > > for
> > > > >> WLM
> > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > covered by
> > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > only
> > > > >> ones i
> > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> > > if we
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than it
> > is
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the rights
> > > to the
> > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > > people
> > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > best,
> > > > >> > rupert
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation
> > for
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > important
> > > > >> > > points.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted
> > > by
> > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained
> > > that
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign
> > > in
> > > > >> Italy
> > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > > >> well-known to
> > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed
> > > for
> > > > >> several
> > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners
> > > went
> > > > >> live
> > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > September.
> > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > the
> > > > >> history,
> > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > written
> > > > >> so in
> > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible
> > in
> > > > >> matters
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > > in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > weeks
> > > > >> before
> > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > constructive
> > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's
> > > just
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a
> > few
> > > > >> days in
> > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this
> > > does
> > > > >> not
> > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > expected
> > > > >> results
> > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > clear
> > > > >> negative
> > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia
> > > > >> Italia.
> > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and
> > > > >> uploaded
> > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front
> > > of our
> > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > cultural
> > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation
> > > of
> > > > >> Italian
> > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of
> > > > >> Museums),
> > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club
> > > > >> Italiano
> > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > > spends
> > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > money,
> > > but
> > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > renowned
> > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> > McCurry (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > Fontana (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from
> > > the
> > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we
> > > are
> > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > > beyond
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
> > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of
> > > > >> monuments.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of
> > > > >> monuments,
> > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > For.
> > > > >> Every.
> > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There
> > is
> > > no
> > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy
> > > stats:
> > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is
> > > the
> > > > >> reason
> > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > each. In
> > > > >> 2014
> > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of
> > > number
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > Wikimedia
> > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also
> > > Wiki
> > > > >> Loves
> > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other
> > > > >> sources).
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > movement:
> > > > >> but, for
> > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the
> > > very
> > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > in a
> > > > >> small
> > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > >> competition
> > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of
> > > > >> pictures
> > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > > when it
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money
> > to
> > > > >> build
> > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > > career
> > > > >> to the
> > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also
> > > have a
> > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > fundraising
> > > > >> team
> > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to be
> > > > >> confident
> > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > > that in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and work
> > > more
> > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation with
> > > WMF
> > > > >> and all
> > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar of
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and gave
> > us
> > > > >> opinions
> > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we
> > > would
> > > > >> like
> > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > >> ,
> > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> <
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > > >
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no relevance...
Cheers,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hello everybody.
I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.

In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we continued a very honest and direct conversation.
I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.

I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it welcomed with the respect it deserves.

Best regards

Andrea


On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < [hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
>
> So we can see what the community thinks about this.
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> > it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> situation. I
> > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments
> > in September,
> and
> > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> Wikimedia
> > movement?
> >
> > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > New update:
> > >
> > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> resulted
> > > in:
> > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > > will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > > Page of Wikipedia
> > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> media
> > > fire
> > >
> > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > >
> > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > > again,
> what
> > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> > > the
> amount
> > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> > > the
> time.
> > >
> > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > > Wiki
> Loves
> > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> visitors to
> > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> small
> > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
> > > do
> not
> > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
> > > A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not
> > > reach to the
> core
> > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
> > > I
> have
> > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > > core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > >
> > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > fundraising banner to a month later...
> > >
> > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > > afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > >
> > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > > large ruined by it.
> > >
> > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > team
> of
> > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> empty
> > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > >
> > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> multiple
> > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> > > not
> really
> > > get it.
> > >
> > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > > WMF
> who
> > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> > > explain
> what
> > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > > the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > > contest
> in the
> > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> friendly to
> > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > >
> > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> multiple
> > > people, they do not really get it.
> > >
> > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > > for
> the
> > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
> > > a
> lot of
> > > weight and use it.
> > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > > banner)
> is a
> > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > impressed
> by
> > > those.
> > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > > the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your
> > > results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > > even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > > feedback
> on the
> > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> > > experience in
> this
> > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > >
> > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> > > banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > >
> > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > >>
> > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > >> first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> > >> exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free
> > >> knowledge and other
> stuff, but
> > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> important
> > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Steinsplitter
> > >>
> > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> Monuments
> > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >> >
> > >> > dear board,
> > >> >
> > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > >> > to
> spoil
> > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> cannot
> > >> and
> > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > >> > is a
> > >> simple
> > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > >> > banner
> for
> > >> WLM
> > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> covered by
> > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > >> > only
> > >> ones i
> > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> if we
> > >> as
> > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > >> > it is
> > >> better
> > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > >> > rights
> to the
> > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> people
> > >> > doing some work.
> > >> >
> > >> > best,
> > >> > rupert
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> [hidden email]
> > >> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> > >> > > situation for Wikimedia Italia.
> > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> important
> > >> > > points.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > >> > > contacted
> by
> > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > >> > > explained
> that
> > >> the
> > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > >> > > campaign
> in
> > >> Italy
> > >> > > in September.
> > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > >> well-known to
> > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > >> > > discussed
> for
> > >> several
> > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > >> > > banners
> went
> > >> live
> > >> > > just for the last days.
> > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> September.
> > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > >> > > the
> > >> history,
> > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> written
> > >> so in
> > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> > >> > > negligible in
> > >> matters
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > communication.
> > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of
> > >> > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> in
> > >> the
> > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > >> > > weeks
> > >> before
> > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> constructive
> > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > >> > > it's
> just
> > >> better
> > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just
> > >> > > a few
> > >> days in
> > >> > > the middle of September.
> > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> > >> > > this
> does
> > >> not
> > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > >> > > expected
> > >> results
> > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > >> > > clear
> > >> negative
> > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > >> > > Wikimedia
> > >> Italia.
> > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > >> > > and
> > >> uploaded
> > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > >> > > front
> of our
> > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> cultural
> > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > >> > > Federation
> of
> > >> Italian
> > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
> > >> > > of
> > >> Museums),
> > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > >> > > Club
> > >> Italiano
> > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> spends
> > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > >> > > money,
> but
> > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > >> > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed)
> > >> > > Steve McCurry (
> > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > >> > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > >> > > from
> the
> > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > >> > > we
> are
> > >> > > fighting
> > >> > > as WMIT.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> beyond
> > >> being
> > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > >> > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> > >> > > pictures of
> > >> monuments.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> > >> > > of
> > >> monuments,
> > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For.
> > >> Every.
> > >> > > Monument.
> > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> > >> > > There is
> no
> > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim
> edia_projects
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> > >> > > Italy
> stats:
> > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > >> > > is
> the
> > >> reason
> > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> each. In
> > >> 2014
> > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> > >> > > of
> number
> > >> of
> > >> > > photos.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of
> > >> > > course, also
> Wiki
> > >> Loves
> > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > >> > > other
> > >> sources).
> > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement:
> > >> but, for
> > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > >> > > the
> very
> > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > >> > > in a
> > >> small
> > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > >> competition
> > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
> > >> > > of
> > >> pictures
> > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> when it
> > >> is
> > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > >> > > money to
> > >> build
> > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > >> > > for
> all
> > >> the
> > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> career
> > >> to the
> > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > >> > > also
> have a
> > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> fundraising
> > >> team
> > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
> > >> > > be
> > >> confident
> > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> that in
> > >> the
> > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > >> > > work
> more
> > >> > > collaboratively.
> > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > >> > > with
> WMF
> > >> and all
> > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > >> > > of
> all
> > >> the
> > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > >> > > gave us
> > >> opinions
> > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> > >> > > we
> would
> > >> like
> > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > >> ,
> > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > >> be>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@li
> sts.wikimedia.org
> >
> > >> Unsubscribe:
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > >> be>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Megan Hernandez
Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
have written together.

Hi everyone,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
WMF.

There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.

WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.

Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
September target.

Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
going forward.

It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
forward.

Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
contributions this year.


Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> relevance...
> Cheers,
> P
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
>
> I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> welcomed with the respect it deserves.
>
> Best regards
>
> Andrea
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> >
> > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> >
> > [1]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > To: [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> > > it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > situation. I
> > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > in September,
> > and
> > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > Wikimedia
> > > movement?
> > >
> > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > > situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > New update:
> > > >
> > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > resulted
> > > > in:
> > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > > > will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > > > Page of Wikipedia
> > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > media
> > > > fire
> > > >
> > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > >
> > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > > > again,
> > what
> > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> > > > the
> > amount
> > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> > > > the
> > time.
> > > >
> > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > > > Wiki
> > Loves
> > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > visitors to
> > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > small
> > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
> > > > do
> > not
> > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
> > > > A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > > largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not
> > > > reach to the
> > core
> > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
> > > > I
> > have
> > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > > > core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > >
> > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > > fundraising banner to a month later...
> > > >
> > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > > > afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > >
> > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > > > large ruined by it.
> > > >
> > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > > team
> > of
> > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > empty
> > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> > > > not
> > really
> > > > get it.
> > > >
> > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > > > WMF
> > who
> > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> > > > explain
> > what
> > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > > > the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > > > contest
> > in the
> > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > friendly to
> > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > >
> > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > multiple
> > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > >
> > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > > > for
> > the
> > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
> > > > a
> > lot of
> > > > weight and use it.
> > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > > > banner)
> > is a
> > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > > impressed
> > by
> > > > those.
> > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > > > the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your
> > > > results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
> account seriously.
> > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > > > even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > > > feedback
> > on the
> > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> > > > experience in
> > this
> > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > >
> > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> > > > banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > >>
> > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > >> first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> > > >> exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free
> > > >> knowledge and other
> > stuff, but
> > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > important
> > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > >>
> > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >> >
> > > >> > dear board,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > > >> > to
> > spoil
> > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > cannot
> > > >> and
> > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > > >> > is a
> > > >> simple
> > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > > >> > banner
> > for
> > > >> WLM
> > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > covered by
> > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > >> > only
> > > >> ones i
> > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space policy.
> > if we
> > > >> as
> > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > > >> > it is
> > > >> better
> > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > > >> > rights
> > to the
> > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > people
> > > >> > doing some work.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > best,
> > > >> > rupert
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >> >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> > > >> > > situation for Wikimedia Italia.
> > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > important
> > > >> > > points.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > > >> > > contacted
> > by
> > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > > >> > > explained
> > that
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > > >> > > campaign
> > in
> > > >> Italy
> > > >> > > in September.
> > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > >> well-known to
> > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > > >> > > discussed
> > for
> > > >> several
> > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > > >> > > banners
> > went
> > > >> live
> > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > September.
> > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> history,
> > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > written
> > > >> so in
> > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> > > >> > > negligible in
> > > >> matters
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > communication.
> > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of
> > > >> > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > >> > > weeks
> > > >> before
> > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > constructive
> > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > > >> > > it's
> > just
> > > >> better
> > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just
> > > >> > > a few
> > > >> days in
> > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> > > >> > > this
> > does
> > > >> not
> > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > >> > > expected
> > > >> results
> > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > >> > > clear
> > > >> negative
> > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > > >> > > Wikimedia
> > > >> Italia.
> > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > > >> > > and
> > > >> uploaded
> > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > > >> > > front
> > of our
> > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > cultural
> > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > > >> > > Federation
> > of
> > > >> Italian
> > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> Museums),
> > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > > >> > > Club
> > > >> Italiano
> > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > spends
> > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > >> > > money,
> > but
> > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > >> > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed)
> > > >> > > Steve McCurry (
> > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > >> > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > > >> > > from
> > the
> > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > > >> > > we
> > are
> > > >> > > fighting
> > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > beyond
> > > >> being
> > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > > >> > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> > > >> > > pictures of
> > > >> monuments.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> monuments,
> > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> For.
> > > >> Every.
> > > >> > > Monument.
> > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> > > >> > > There is
> > no
> > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim
> > edia_projects
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> > > >> > > Italy
> > stats:
> > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > > >> > > is
> > the
> > > >> reason
> > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > each. In
> > > >> 2014
> > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> > > >> > > of
> > number
> > > >> of
> > > >> > > photos.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of
> > > >> > > course, also
> > Wiki
> > > >> Loves
> > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > > >> > > other
> > > >> sources).
> > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> movement:
> > > >> but, for
> > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > > >> > > the
> > very
> > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > > >> > > in a
> > > >> small
> > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > >> competition
> > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> pictures
> > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > when it
> > > >> is
> > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > > >> > > money to
> > > >> build
> > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > > >> > > for
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > career
> > > >> to the
> > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > > >> > > also
> > have a
> > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > fundraising
> > > >> team
> > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
> > > >> > > be
> > > >> confident
> > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > that in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > > >> > > work
> > more
> > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > > >> > > with
> > WMF
> > > >> and all
> > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > > >> > > of
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > > >> > > gave us
> > > >> opinions
> > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> > > >> > > we
> > would
> > > >> like
> > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > >> ,
> > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > >> be>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> <
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@li
> > sts.wikimedia.org
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> > > >> Unsubscribe:
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> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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--

Megan Hernandez

Director of Online Fundraising
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Romaine Wiki-2
Hello Megan & Andrea,

Thank you for the message and the hard work done!

Greetings,
Romaine

----
international organiser of Wiki Loves Monuments

2015-08-31 13:02 GMT+02:00 Megan Hernandez <[hidden email]>:

> Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
> have written together.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
> in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
> WMF.
>
> There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
> campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
> campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
> the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
> Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
>
> WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
> solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
> and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
> the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
> Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
> hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
> sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
> coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
>
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.
>
> Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
> on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
> fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
> more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
> We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
> forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
> going forward.
>
> It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
> and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
> Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
> effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
> how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
> forward.
>
> Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
> problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
> you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
> contributions this year.
>
>
> Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> > relevance...
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> > Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > > Monuments
> > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> > > > it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > situation. I
> > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > > organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > > in September,
> > > and
> > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > movement?
> > > >
> > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > > > situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > >
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > New update:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > resulted
> > > > > in:
> > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > > > > will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > > > > Page of Wikipedia
> > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > > media
> > > > > fire
> > > > >
> > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > > > > again,
> > > what
> > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> > > > > the
> > > amount
> > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> > > > > the
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > > > > Wiki
> > > Loves
> > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > visitors to
> > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > > small
> > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
> > > > > do
> > > not
> > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
> > > > > A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > > > largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not
> > > > > reach to the
> > > core
> > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
> > > > > I
> > > have
> > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > > > > core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > >
> > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > > > fundraising banner to a month later...
> > > > >
> > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > > > > afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > >
> > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > > > > large ruined by it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > > > team
> > > of
> > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > > empty
> > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> > > > > not
> > > really
> > > > > get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > > > > WMF
> > > who
> > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> > > > > explain
> > > what
> > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > > > > the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > > > > contest
> > > in the
> > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > friendly to
> > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > > > > for
> > > the
> > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
> > > > > a
> > > lot of
> > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > > > > banner)
> > > is a
> > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > > > impressed
> > > by
> > > > > those.
> > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > > > > the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your
> > > > > results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
> > account seriously.
> > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > > > > even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > > > > feedback
> > > on the
> > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> > > > > experience in
> > > this
> > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> > > > > banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > > >> first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> > > > >> exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free
> > > > >> knowledge and other
> > > stuff, but
> > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > important
> > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > > > >> > to
> > > spoil
> > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > > cannot
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > > > >> > is a
> > > > >> simple
> > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > > > >> > banner
> > > for
> > > > >> WLM
> > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > covered by
> > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > > >> > only
> > > > >> ones i
> > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> policy.
> > > if we
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > > > >> > it is
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > > > >> > rights
> > > to the
> > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > > people
> > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > best,
> > > > >> > rupert
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> > > > >> > > situation for Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > important
> > > > >> > > points.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > > > >> > > contacted
> > > by
> > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > > > >> > > explained
> > > that
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > > > >> > > campaign
> > > in
> > > > >> Italy
> > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > > >> well-known to
> > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > > > >> > > discussed
> > > for
> > > > >> several
> > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > > > >> > > banners
> > > went
> > > > >> live
> > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > September.
> > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> history,
> > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > written
> > > > >> so in
> > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> > > > >> > > negligible in
> > > > >> matters
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of
> > > > >> > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > > in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > > >> > > weeks
> > > > >> before
> > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > constructive
> > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > > > >> > > it's
> > > just
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just
> > > > >> > > a few
> > > > >> days in
> > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> > > > >> > > this
> > > does
> > > > >> not
> > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > > >> > > expected
> > > > >> results
> > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > > >> > > clear
> > > > >> negative
> > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia
> > > > >> Italia.
> > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > > > >> > > and
> > > > >> uploaded
> > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > > > >> > > front
> > > of our
> > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > cultural
> > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > > > >> > > Federation
> > > of
> > > > >> Italian
> > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> Museums),
> > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > > > >> > > Club
> > > > >> Italiano
> > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > > spends
> > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > > >> > > money,
> > > but
> > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > > >> > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed)
> > > > >> > > Steve McCurry (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > > >> > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > > > >> > > from
> > > the
> > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > > > >> > > we
> > > are
> > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > > beyond
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > > > >> > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> > > > >> > > pictures of
> > > > >> monuments.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> monuments,
> > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > For.
> > > > >> Every.
> > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> > > > >> > > There is
> > > no
> > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim
> > > edia_projects
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> > > > >> > > Italy
> > > stats:
> > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > > > >> > > is
> > > the
> > > > >> reason
> > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > each. In
> > > > >> 2014
> > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> > > > >> > > of
> > > number
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of
> > > > >> > > course, also
> > > Wiki
> > > > >> Loves
> > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > > > >> > > other
> > > > >> sources).
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > movement:
> > > > >> but, for
> > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > > > >> > > the
> > > very
> > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > > > >> > > in a
> > > > >> small
> > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > >> competition
> > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> pictures
> > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > > when it
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > > > >> > > money to
> > > > >> build
> > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > > > >> > > for
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > > career
> > > > >> to the
> > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > > > >> > > also
> > > have a
> > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > fundraising
> > > > >> team
> > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
> > > > >> > > be
> > > > >> confident
> > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > > that in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > > > >> > > work
> > > more
> > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > > > >> > > with
> > > WMF
> > > > >> and all
> > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > > > >> > > of
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > > > >> > > gave us
> > > > >> opinions
> > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> > > > >> > > we
> > > would
> > > > >> like
> > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > >> ,
> > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > > >> be>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> <
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@li
> > > sts.wikimedia.org
> > > >
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > > >> be>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4409/10544 - Release Date:
> 08/30/15
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Megan Hernandez
>
> Director of Online Fundraising
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by Megan Hernandez
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Megan Hernandez <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Below is a message that Andrea Zanni, President of Wikimedia Italia, and I
> have written together.
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback. We would like to fill you
> in on the background work and conversations between Wikimedia Italia and
> WMF.
>
> There was a scheduling problem to solve between two very important
> campaigns for the movement. Wiki Loves Monuments is a major contribution
> campaign and annual effort.  Fundraising campaigns fund the movement and
> the team has a difficult goal this year with quarterly targets to meet.
> Direct communication was needed to work through the issue.
>
> WMIT and WMF have been talking through the situation and many possible
> solutions over the past few weeks. Through very honest and respectful phone
> and email conversations, we were able to reach a mutual understanding of
> the issue and decided to move the fundraising campaign after Wiki Loves
> Monuments. We reached this agreement over the weekend (actually several
> hours before the RfC was posted online), but an immediate reply was not
> sent because we wanted to coordinate an update to the list. Weekend
> coordination is tricky, which is why this email is being sent on Monday.
>



Sorry to be a pain about this, but I'm puzzled.

Andrea wrote here on this list, four hours and fifteen minutes after the
RfC started,

"I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all".

Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.

Andreas



On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
 wrote:

> Hello everybody.
> I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to run
> the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
>
> In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board worked
> hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.





>
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.
>
> Wikimedia Italia and the WMF fundraising team have collaborated in the past
> on several projects (chapter banner and email campaigns as well as
> fundraising campaigns). We are currently working together on ways to get
> more contributors to WLM in Italy this year and on the upcoming fundraiser.
> We’ll work on communication and will share mutual expertise. We look
> forward to continuing to grow the relationship and working more closely
> going forward.
>
> It’s clear we need a better process to coordinate campaigns. We are a vast
> and complex movement, so communication is key. Together with the Community
> Engagement team, we are thinking of ways to improve and we appreciate your
> effort toward this improvement. Reasonable and respectful communication is
> how we were able to reach a solution, we need to build from this going
> forward.
>
> Thank you to everyone who provided constructive ideas to help solve the
> problem. Best of luck to all the WLM campaigns that launch tomorrow! Thank
> you for all your work on WLM, we’re all looking forward to seeing the new
> contributions this year.
>
>
> Megan Hernandez and Andrea Zanni
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Interesting that this happens just after the RFC is started. Maybe no
> > relevance...
> > Cheers,
> > P
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanni
> > Sent: Sunday, 30 August 2015 10:21 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
> > Cc: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > Hello everybody.
> > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> run
> > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> >
> > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> worked
> > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> >
> > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > >
> > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > From: [hidden email]
> > > > To: [hidden email];
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > > Monuments
> > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> > > > it is time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > situation. I
> > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > > organising teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments
> > > > in September,
> > > and
> > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > movement?
> > > >
> > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > > > situation, I have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > >
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banne
> > > r_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > New update:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > resulted
> > > > > in:
> > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we
> > > > > will have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > > > > Page of Wikipedia
> > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social
> > > media
> > > > > fire
> > > > >
> > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > > > > again,
> > > what
> > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> > > > > the
> > > amount
> > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> > > > > the
> > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > > > > Wiki
> > > Loves
> > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > visitors to
> > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a
> > > small
> > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I
> > > > > do
> > > not
> > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work.
> > > > > A blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > > > largest project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not
> > > > > reach to the
> > > core
> > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire,
> > > > > I
> > > have
> > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > > > > core infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > >
> > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > > > fundraising banner to a month later...
> > > > >
> > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > > > > afgescheept worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > >
> > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > > > > large ruined by it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > > > team
> > > of
> > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many
> > > empty
> > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> > > > > not
> > > really
> > > > > get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from
> > > > > WMF
> > > who
> > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> > > > > explain
> > > what
> > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > > > > the largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > > > > contest
> > > in the
> > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > friendly to
> > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > multiple
> > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > > > > for
> > > the
> > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have
> > > > > a
> > > lot of
> > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > > > > banner)
> > > is a
> > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > > > impressed
> > > by
> > > > > those.
> > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at
> > > > > the same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your
> > > > > results. Yes you can, some chapters did and that was taken into
> > account seriously.
> > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and
> > > > > even think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > > > > feedback
> > > on the
> > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> > > > > experience in
> > > this
> > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> > > > > banner, let the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > > >> first should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> > > > >> exactly zero dollars per hour. It is all because of free
> > > > >> knowledge and other
> > > stuff, but
> > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > important
> > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > From: [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > >> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > CC: [hidden email];
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > Monuments
> > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > > > >> > to
> > > spoil
> > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF
> > > cannot
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there
> > > > >> > is a
> > > > >> simple
> > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > > > >> > banner
> > > for
> > > > >> WLM
> > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > covered by
> > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > > >> > only
> > > > >> ones i
> > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> policy.
> > > if we
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > > > >> > it is
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > > > >> > rights
> > > to the
> > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the
> > > people
> > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > best,
> > > > >> > rupert
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> > > > >> > > situation for Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > important
> > > > >> > > points.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > > > >> > > contacted
> > > by
> > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > > > >> > > explained
> > > that
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > > > >> > > campaign
> > > in
> > > > >> Italy
> > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is
> > > > >> well-known to
> > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > > > >> > > discussed
> > > for
> > > > >> several
> > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > > > >> > > banners
> > > went
> > > > >> live
> > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > September.
> > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> history,
> > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > written
> > > > >> so in
> > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> > > > >> > > negligible in
> > > > >> matters
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation, the very existence of
> > > > >> > > the clash, the fact that all this appeared
> > > in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > > >> > > weeks
> > > > >> before
> > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > constructive
> > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > > > >> > > it's
> > > just
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just
> > > > >> > > a few
> > > > >> days in
> > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> > > > >> > > this
> > > does
> > > > >> not
> > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > > >> > > expected
> > > > >> results
> > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > > >> > > clear
> > > > >> negative
> > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia
> > > > >> Italia.
> > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > > > >> > > and
> > > > >> uploaded
> > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > > > >> > > front
> > > of our
> > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > cultural
> > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > > > >> > > Federation
> > > of
> > > > >> Italian
> > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> Museums),
> > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > > > >> > > Club
> > > > >> Italiano
> > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT
> > > spends
> > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > > >> > > money,
> > > but
> > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > > >> > > renowned photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed)
> > > > >> > > Steve McCurry (
> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > > >> > > Fontana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > > > >> > > from
> > > the
> > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > > > >> > > we
> > > are
> > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes
> > > beyond
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > > > >> > > create relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> > > > >> > > pictures of
> > > > >> monuments.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> monuments,
> > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > For.
> > > > >> Every.
> > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> > > > >> > > There is
> > > no
> > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikim
> > > edia_projects
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> > > > >> > > Italy
> > > stats:
> > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > > > >> > > is
> > > the
> > > > >> reason
> > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > each. In
> > > > >> 2014
> > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> > > > >> > > of
> > > number
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of
> > > > >> > > course, also
> > > Wiki
> > > > >> Loves
> > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > > > >> > > other
> > > > >> sources).
> > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > movement:
> > > > >> but, for
> > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > > > >> > > the
> > > very
> > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon
> > > > >> > > in a
> > > > >> small
> > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > >> competition
> > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands
> > > > >> > > of
> > > > >> pictures
> > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially
> > > when it
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > > > >> > > money to
> > > > >> build
> > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > > > >> > > for
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their
> > > career
> > > > >> to the
> > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > > > >> > > also
> > > have a
> > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > fundraising
> > > > >> team
> > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to
> > > > >> > > be
> > > > >> confident
> > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and
> > > that in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > > > >> > > work
> > > more
> > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > > > >> > > with
> > > WMF
> > > > >> and all
> > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > > > >> > > of
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > > > >> > > gave us
> > > > >> opinions
> > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> > > > >> > > we
> > > would
> > > > >> like
> > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > >> ,
> > > > >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > > >> be>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> <
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@li
> > > sts.wikimedia.org
> > > >
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
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> > > > >> be>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > [hidden email]
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> > >
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> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4409/10544 - Release Date:
> 08/30/15
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Megan Hernandez
>
> Director of Online Fundraising
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Andrea Zanni-2
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
> seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
>

Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago".
I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the
RfC.
We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in
diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy).
Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a
decision that
the WMF has taken lightly.
I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which
takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).

Cheers

Aubrey
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Sandra Rientjes  - Wikimedia Nederland
Congratulations on reaching agreement - to all parties concerned.
I understand that is has not been easy, so well done!

Sandra Rientjes
Directeur/Executive Director Wikimedia Nederland

tel.    (+31) (0)30 3200238
mob. (+31) (0)6  31786379

www.wikimedia.nl

*Postadres*:                                                 * Bezoekadres:*
Postbus 167                                                Mariaplaats 3
3500 AD  Utrecht                                         Utrecht

2015-08-31 15:17 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Unless "just" meant something like "five hours" ago, Andrea at least only
> > seems to have learned of this agreement *after* the RfC launched.
> >
>
> Yes, it was meant as "a few hours ago".
> I received the mail from Lisa's before the Romaine sent his mail about the
> RfC.
> We just did not announce it immediately (it was Sunday, and we are in
> diferent time zones, so communication is not really easy).
> Mind you that we spoke the whole week and also the weekend, this is not a
> decision that
> the WMF has taken lightly.
> I'd like to look at it as a good example of creation of consent (which
> takes a lot of time and negotiation, as we all know).
>
> Cheers
>
> Aubrey
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Mathias Damour
In reply to this post by Megan Hernandez
Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
> September target.

The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
target" and in smooth communication.

We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these
last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a
backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies
in the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we
have 15 time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the
fundraising targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event
in just one not-so-big country ! :-P

Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide
donors, the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess
pieces that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for
setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\

--
Mathias Damour
[[User:Astirmays]]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Pine W
I just want to respond to this point in particular:

"Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in September.
It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will need
to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
September target."

It was somewhat courageous for WMF Fundraising to change its schedule and
forecast missing a target as a result. Two quotes seem appropriate in the
context of this conversation, particularly regarding WMF's taking the
community's priorities into account and absorbing the risks to its plans
that come with changing to accommodate WLM:

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
takes to sit down and listen." -- Winston Churchill.

"Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in
the ocean." --Christopher Reeve

Thanks Megan and all.

Pine


On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Mathias Damour <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Le 31/08/2015 13:02, Megan Hernandez a écrit :
>
>> Postponing the Italian fundraising campaign means for the first time in at
>> least 4 years, the fundraising team will not be meeting a target. The team
>> will pick up extra work in October to make up for work missed in
>> September.
>> It's not possible to do two months of work in one month, so there will
>> need
>> to be adjustments later throughout the year to make up for missing the
>> September target.
>>
>
> The WMF team is without any doubt very professional in "meeting its
> target" and in smooth communication.
>
> We should also understand that despite the huge growth of the WMF these
> last few years, it may feel an inferiority complex and think it has a
> backlog to catch up compared to some much richer neighbouring companies in
> the San Francisco Bay ! I guess they roughly think: "Why should we have 15
> time less employees than Twitter !" That's why raising up the fundraising
> targets can be more important than to facilitate a WLM event in just one
> not-so-big country ! :-P
>
> Nevertheless it still give the impression of taking the word-wide donors,
> the volunteers and the other entities (chapters) for pawns/chess pieces
> that you may move or stop whenever you want or need...
> Maybe the ones to blame are the neighbouring internet companies for
> setting a bad example to the WMF... :-\
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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