[Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Nathan Awrich
Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
completed this past August. [1]

It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
before it was a done deal.

~Nathan

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Florence Devouard-3
Le 04/10/15 00:13, Nathan a écrit :

> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> completed this past August. [1]
>
> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> before it was a done deal.
>
> ~Nathan
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>


As member of this community, I would to shortly comment in my individual
capacity.

The situation is completely embarassing. Yeah, it is.

The community met during Wikimania.
- We discussed committee membership.
- We discussed moving away from the current bidding process, which is, -
in our opinion, broken
- We discussed making Montreal our choice, to be announced at the
*earliest* convenience (keep in mind this was discussed in July), as
part of our new process but only after talking with the Montreal team
- We finally discussed a notion of location with global areas
Very rough notes of that meeting were posted on meta :
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/2015-07-16

We closed that meeting with the following todos
- Ellie had to check with Montreal (which she did)
- James had to propose areas (which he did)
- the committee had to meet again a month later (which it did)

When August meeting came,
- we discussed and finalized membership (keep in mind that not all
members were in July meeting and not all members were in August meeting)
- Ellie informed us that Montreal team was happy to move forward and we
planned an announcement
- James proposed a set of areas, with propositions for the coming years
- James proposed a draft of announcement

AND THIS IS WHERE THE WHOLE SITUATION BUGGED

The announcement of the new bidding system, the locations and Montreal
were in one document only. And the problem is that the committee did not
agree collectively with the area chosen, nor with the predetermination
proposed.
(I, in particular, indicated my (very) deep disagreement that middle and
south africa were completely excluded from the list. I expressed my
(serious) desire that the decision of the rotation places be not made
now by the committee, but with community input). The committee concluded
that 1) the draft announcement was to be reworked and that 2) we would
announce the new system and seek input from the community before its
finalization in the following weeks.

This was over a month ago. Since then, what happened ? We made some
improvements to the draft. Iolanda tried to push for the announcement of
the new process and of Montreal to be made. Ellie noted that the
organizer of Montreal was on a leave for 3 weeks and that she would
prefer to wait his return and a visit to Canada to finalize things more,
and that she would rather that the new process be announced as part of a
larger community consultation that would include discussion both about
the program and the future location, to be held in October.

And there you are... there is this...dual situation between ... the
community wanting to know as soon as possible, so as to weigth in the
decision... and the staff... who want to polish things as much as
possible before any public announcement and call for input. And of
course... these two tendancies are not fully compatible.
And a pinch of feeling of "non ownership" from committee members, as
only the Chair of the committee should be the one to finalize and send
the announcement.

Eh :)

Well, there you are. Now things are out.

We are indeed seriously considering Montreal pending a site visit this
month (october).

Josh, for the record, I am very sorry because I had no idea you were
preparing a bid. I thought only Montreal had been really.
This is actually part of the reasons why we wish to change the biding
process. We have seen too many teams work like crazy for weeks, even
months, to prepare a bid that will go nowhere because another city will
be winning. This is such a loss of energy and time ! We think it would
be so much positive to get community members to focus more on building a
great program more than on finding the proper venue/hotel/restaurant etc.

Hopefully, James will be available to post a clearer and complete
message early next week on that topic. Bottom line is that there is a
community consultation planned on that topic.

Again, I post this in my personal capacity.

Florence








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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
On 03/10/2015 23:13, Nathan wrote:
> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> completed this past August. [1]

Not so much the Signpost as 梁忠明.[1]

KTC


[1]:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2015-October/079246.html


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
You could excuse the Perth and Manila bid teams for being very angry at
having wasted a lot of time and energy when the decision was apparently
made behind closed doors weeks ago.  Even if you think the idea of getting
rid of the expensive bid process is a good idea (and I do), the way that
this was not communicated to the community is simply abominable.

Cheers,
Craig

On 4 October 2015 at 08:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> completed this past August. [1]
>
> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> before it was a done deal.
>
> ~Nathan
>
> [1]
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pine W
Sigh. Decisions being made behind closed doors and then being announced
much later than they should have been is a bit of a WMF pattern that I
would like to see addressed. My understanding is that Lila is putting some
emphasis on improved communications in Q2, and I would be interested in
seeing some specific measures put in place to address the kind of situation
that seems to have happened again here.

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> You could excuse the Perth and Manila bid teams for being very angry at
> having wasted a lot of time and energy when the decision was apparently
> made behind closed doors weeks ago.  Even if you think the idea of getting
> rid of the expensive bid process is a good idea (and I do), the way that
> this was not communicated to the community is simply abominable.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 4 October 2015 at 08:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
> > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> > completed this past August. [1]
> >
> > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> > before it was a done deal.
> >
> > ~Nathan
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

cro0016
In reply to this post by Craig Franklin
I have to say I'm quite surprised by this as well. It seems a real departure from the norm and even though I've been told first hand that WMF would never choose Australia as a venue for a Wikimania due to cost (and the shift to a Europe/North America/elsewhere rotating format demonstrates this) but it's still very disheartening for those that have started preparing a bid only to find out it's a complete waste of their time.

Steve Crossin
Sent from my iPhone

> On 4 Oct 2015, at 2:13 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You could excuse the Perth and Manila bid teams for being very angry at
> having wasted a lot of time and energy when the decision was apparently
> made behind closed doors weeks ago.  Even if you think the idea of getting
> rid of the expensive bid process is a good idea (and I do), the way that
> this was not communicated to the community is simply abominable.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
>> On 4 October 2015 at 08:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
>> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
>> completed this past August. [1]
>>
>> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
>> before it was a done deal.
>>
>> ~Nathan
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Pine W
I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet there
doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see here.
A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated is
clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at all.

Cheers,
Craig

On 4 October 2015 at 13:25, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sigh. Decisions being made behind closed doors and then being announced
> much later than they should have been is a bit of a WMF pattern that I
> would like to see addressed. My understanding is that Lila is putting some
> emphasis on improved communications in Q2, and I would be interested in
> seeing some specific measures put in place to address the kind of situation
> that seems to have happened again here.
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > You could excuse the Perth and Manila bid teams for being very angry at
> > having wasted a lot of time and energy when the decision was apparently
> > made behind closed doors weeks ago.  Even if you think the idea of
> getting
> > rid of the expensive bid process is a good idea (and I do), the way that
> > this was not communicated to the community is simply abominable.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Craig
> >
> > On 4 October 2015 at 08:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
> has
> > > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
> > > completed this past August. [1]
> > >
> > > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
> > > before it was a done deal.
> > >
> > > ~Nathan
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pine W
I will be happy to learn of any specific and measurable new goals WMF has
for movement communications and specific plans for how those goals will be
achieved. I agree that vague statements about improved communication are
insufficient.

Pine
On Oct 3, 2015 8:36 PM, "Craig Franklin" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet there
> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see here.
> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated is
> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at all.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 4 October 2015 at 13:25, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sigh. Decisions being made behind closed doors and then being announced
> > much later than they should have been is a bit of a WMF pattern that I
> > would like to see addressed. My understanding is that Lila is putting
> some
> > emphasis on improved communications in Q2, and I would be interested in
> > seeing some specific measures put in place to address the kind of
> situation
> > that seems to have happened again here.
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Craig Franklin <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You could excuse the Perth and Manila bid teams for being very angry at
> > > having wasted a lot of time and energy when the decision was apparently
> > > made behind closed doors weeks ago.  Even if you think the idea of
> > getting
> > > rid of the expensive bid process is a good idea (and I do), the way
> that
> > > this was not communicated to the community is simply abominable.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > On 4 October 2015 at 08:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
> > has
> > > > been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process
> that
> > > > completed this past August. [1]
> > > >
> > > > It seems like the community could have been looped into this new
> method
> > > > before it was a done deal.
> > > >
> > > > ~Nathan
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Carlos M. Colina
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
All of this could be read as "let's make a call for community input for
the sake of political correctness, so the community thinks their opinion
is important for us....but we have taken the decision several months ago
anyway".

M.

El 04/10/2015 a las 02:38 a.m., Florence Devouard escribió:

> Le 04/10/15 00:13, Nathan a écrit :
>> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal
>> has
>> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
>> completed this past August. [1]
>>
>> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
>> before it was a done deal.
>>
>> ~Nathan
>>
>> [1]
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes 
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> As member of this community, I would to shortly comment in my
> individual capacity.
>
> The situation is completely embarassing. Yeah, it is.
>
> The community met during Wikimania.
> - We discussed committee membership.
> - We discussed moving away from the current bidding process, which is,
> - in our opinion, broken
> - We discussed making Montreal our choice, to be announced at the
> *earliest* convenience (keep in mind this was discussed in July), as
> part of our new process but only after talking with the Montreal team
> - We finally discussed a notion of location with global areas
> Very rough notes of that meeting were posted on meta :
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/2015-07-16
>
> We closed that meeting with the following todos
> - Ellie had to check with Montreal (which she did)
> - James had to propose areas (which he did)
> - the committee had to meet again a month later (which it did)
>
> When August meeting came,
> - we discussed and finalized membership (keep in mind that not all
> members were in July meeting and not all members were in August meeting)
> - Ellie informed us that Montreal team was happy to move forward and
> we planned an announcement
> - James proposed a set of areas, with propositions for the coming years
> - James proposed a draft of announcement
>
> AND THIS IS WHERE THE WHOLE SITUATION BUGGED
>
> The announcement of the new bidding system, the locations and Montreal
> were in one document only. And the problem is that the committee did
> not agree collectively with the area chosen, nor with the
> predetermination proposed.
> (I, in particular, indicated my (very) deep disagreement that middle
> and south africa were completely excluded from the list. I expressed
> my (serious) desire that the decision of the rotation places be not
> made now by the committee, but with community input). The committee
> concluded that 1) the draft announcement was to be reworked and that
> 2) we would announce the new system and seek input from the community
> before its finalization in the following weeks.
>
> This was over a month ago. Since then, what happened ? We made some
> improvements to the draft. Iolanda tried to push for the announcement
> of the new process and of Montreal to be made. Ellie noted that the
> organizer of Montreal was on a leave for 3 weeks and that she would
> prefer to wait his return and a visit to Canada to finalize things
> more, and that she would rather that the new process be announced as
> part of a larger community consultation that would include discussion
> both about the program and the future location, to be held in October.
>
> And there you are... there is this...dual situation between ... the
> community wanting to know as soon as possible, so as to weigth in the
> decision... and the staff... who want to polish things as much as
> possible before any public announcement and call for input. And of
> course... these two tendancies are not fully compatible.
> And a pinch of feeling of "non ownership" from committee members, as
> only the Chair of the committee should be the one to finalize and send
> the announcement.
>
> Eh :)
>
> Well, there you are. Now things are out.
>
> We are indeed seriously considering Montreal pending a site visit this
> month (october).
>
> Josh, for the record, I am very sorry because I had no idea you were
> preparing a bid. I thought only Montreal had been really.
> This is actually part of the reasons why we wish to change the biding
> process. We have seen too many teams work like crazy for weeks, even
> months, to prepare a bid that will go nowhere because another city
> will be winning. This is such a loss of energy and time ! We think it
> would be so much positive to get community members to focus more on
> building a great program more than on finding the proper
> venue/hotel/restaurant etc.
>
> Hopefully, James will be available to post a clearer and complete
> message early next week on that topic. Bottom line is that there is a
> community consultation planned on that topic.
>
> Again, I post this in my personal capacity.
>
> Florence
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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--
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junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pine W
Yes, that too.

Pine
On Oct 4, 2015 12:02 AM, "Carlos M. Colina" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All of this could be read as "let's make a call for community input for
> the sake of political correctness, so the community thinks their opinion is
> important for us....but we have taken the decision several months ago
> anyway".
>
> M.
>
> El 04/10/2015 a las 02:38 a.m., Florence Devouard escribió:
>
>> Le 04/10/15 00:13, Nathan a écrit :
>>
>>> Evidently the Signpost has scooped the WMF by revealing that Montreal has
>>> been selected for the 2017 Wikimania host city in a secret process that
>>> completed this past August. [1]
>>>
>>> It seems like the community could have been looped into this new method
>>> before it was a done deal.
>>>
>>> ~Nathan
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-09-30/News_and_notes
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> As member of this community, I would to shortly comment in my individual
>> capacity.
>>
>> The situation is completely embarassing. Yeah, it is.
>>
>> The community met during Wikimania.
>> - We discussed committee membership.
>> - We discussed moving away from the current bidding process, which is, -
>> in our opinion, broken
>> - We discussed making Montreal our choice, to be announced at the
>> *earliest* convenience (keep in mind this was discussed in July), as part
>> of our new process but only after talking with the Montreal team
>> - We finally discussed a notion of location with global areas
>> Very rough notes of that meeting were posted on meta :
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/2015-07-16
>>
>> We closed that meeting with the following todos
>> - Ellie had to check with Montreal (which she did)
>> - James had to propose areas (which he did)
>> - the committee had to meet again a month later (which it did)
>>
>> When August meeting came,
>> - we discussed and finalized membership (keep in mind that not all
>> members were in July meeting and not all members were in August meeting)
>> - Ellie informed us that Montreal team was happy to move forward and we
>> planned an announcement
>> - James proposed a set of areas, with propositions for the coming years
>> - James proposed a draft of announcement
>>
>> AND THIS IS WHERE THE WHOLE SITUATION BUGGED
>>
>> The announcement of the new bidding system, the locations and Montreal
>> were in one document only. And the problem is that the committee did not
>> agree collectively with the area chosen, nor with the predetermination
>> proposed.
>> (I, in particular, indicated my (very) deep disagreement that middle and
>> south africa were completely excluded from the list. I expressed my
>> (serious) desire that the decision of the rotation places be not made now
>> by the committee, but with community input). The committee concluded that
>> 1) the draft announcement was to be reworked and that 2) we would announce
>> the new system and seek input from the community before its finalization in
>> the following weeks.
>>
>> This was over a month ago. Since then, what happened ? We made some
>> improvements to the draft. Iolanda tried to push for the announcement of
>> the new process and of Montreal to be made. Ellie noted that the organizer
>> of Montreal was on a leave for 3 weeks and that she would prefer to wait
>> his return and a visit to Canada to finalize things more, and that she
>> would rather that the new process be announced as part of a larger
>> community consultation that would include discussion both about the program
>> and the future location, to be held in October.
>>
>> And there you are... there is this...dual situation between ... the
>> community wanting to know as soon as possible, so as to weigth in the
>> decision... and the staff... who want to polish things as much as possible
>> before any public announcement and call for input. And of course... these
>> two tendancies are not fully compatible.
>> And a pinch of feeling of "non ownership" from committee members, as only
>> the Chair of the committee should be the one to finalize and send the
>> announcement.
>>
>> Eh :)
>>
>> Well, there you are. Now things are out.
>>
>> We are indeed seriously considering Montreal pending a site visit this
>> month (october).
>>
>> Josh, for the record, I am very sorry because I had no idea you were
>> preparing a bid. I thought only Montreal had been really.
>> This is actually part of the reasons why we wish to change the biding
>> process. We have seen too many teams work like crazy for weeks, even
>> months, to prepare a bid that will go nowhere because another city will be
>> winning. This is such a loss of energy and time ! We think it would be so
>> much positive to get community members to focus more on building a great
>> program more than on finding the proper venue/hotel/restaurant etc.
>>
>> Hopefully, James will be available to post a clearer and complete message
>> early next week on that topic. Bottom line is that there is a community
>> consultation planned on that topic.
>>
>> Again, I post this in my personal capacity.
>>
>> Florence
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
> --
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> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
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> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
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> Phone: +972-52-4869915
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Mathias Damour
In reply to this post by Craig Franklin
Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community" seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet there doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see here.
> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated is clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at all.

I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
professional.

It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the
projets themself, as an average internet company does), are "two
tendancies that are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).

--
Mathias Damour
[[User:Astirmays]]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pine W
Yes and no. Considering that I've been waiting for months for answers to
questions about the WMF Annual Plan, I would say that there is much room
for improvement in communications.

On the other hand, the WMF Comms department itself seems to more or less
ok, and I personally think we'll of WMF's chief communications officer.

So, some good points, and some room to improve. I agree that the status quo
has been this way for awhile and it would be good to see across-the-board
communications SLAs.

Pine
On Oct 4, 2015 12:18 AM, "Mathias Damour" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
>
>> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
>> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet there
>> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see here.
>> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated is
>> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at all.
>>
>
> I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
> professional.
>
> It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
> greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the projets
> themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
> are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by Mathias Damour
On 4 October 2015 at 15:17, Mathias Damour <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
>
>> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
>> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet there
>> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see here.
>> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated is
>> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at all.
>>
>
> I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
> professional.
>

​The communication team are good, but this isnt the fault of the
communication team but rather the Wikimania Committee. Its outright
disgusting and heads should roll for the last ten-twelve years Wikimania
bidding and process have been in one place on meta, and even now this place
continue to imply that nothing has changed. A month before the whole
process starts it get shelved in secret for a new process.  The people
involved on the Wikimania Committee know a bid starts months before the
actual bidding process opens.

As for the process
In returning to North America within two years, it will now be 2018 5 uears
since it last was outside of these two regions before anywhere else will
see the event, given its already been stated as SE Asia that also means
that Africa, Middle East, Oceana, South America, the Sub continent and
Eastern Europe will have to wait until 2021 for an opportunity even then
only one will get that.


This doesnt create incentive for people to be involved with Wikimania
planning , in fact it clearly states that if your outside of Europe or
North America your really not part of our movement but we'll tolerate you
to make us look like we care, and we're global in Europe.   There was
nothing wrong with the Wikimania  process as it stood we all knew going
that it takes a lot of energy, time and resources for potentially no
return.... now there's nothing there's no incentive its going to be 6,9,12
years before other communities will be given some crumbs


> ​ ​
>
> It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
> greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the projets
> themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
> are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
>
> --
> Mathias Damour
> [[User:Astirmays]]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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GN.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

theo10011
In reply to this post by Pine W
I thought the mandate of this committee was to facilitate and coordinate
bidding, set up policy and best practices. The page on Meta still mention
the same as its purpose[1].

When did a committee intended to facilitate an already established, open
process make the leap to downright owning the process and instead, doing
away with it all together? We went from an open jury system to finalizing
things behind closed doors in a physical meeting that seemingly the same
people attend regularly.

It's downright patronizing to hear plans about rotating wikimania from
Europe (excluding eastern Europe for some reason?), to North america and
the "rest of the world". This seems more like someone picking holiday
destinations, talking about countries, entire continents and rest of the
world, in a manner so cavalier.

It's constantly mentioned that the open bidding process is unwieldy and too
cumbersome. While that may be true for the bidding teams, it's still an
open, accessible process that gives everyone the same chance. The entire
idea of the committee was to move the process away from a single
individual's initiative to a group, not make the same individual chair who
just does away with the entire process and decides things on a whim.

Lastly, I don't think this is the usual WMF communication shortfall. This
is more of a committee issue, with its quasi-official status, they took
some liberty with the entire process and their own stated purpose, made
some sweeping changes and forgot to tell anyone, for months. The foundation
could have been as out of the loop as the rest of us.


Theo


[1]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee#Purpose_and_process

On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes and no. Considering that I've been waiting for months for answers to
> questions about the WMF Annual Plan, I would say that there is much room
> for improvement in communications.
>
> On the other hand, the WMF Comms department itself seems to more or less
> ok, and I personally think we'll of WMF's chief communications officer.
>
> So, some good points, and some room to improve. I agree that the status quo
> has been this way for awhile and it would be good to see across-the-board
> communications SLAs.
>
> Pine
> On Oct 4, 2015 12:18 AM, "Mathias Damour" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
> >
> >> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
> >> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet
> there
> >> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see
> here.
> >> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated
> is
> >> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at
> all.
> >>
> >
> > I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
> > professional.
> >
> > It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
> > greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the
> projets
> > themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
> > are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
> >
> > --
> > Mathias Damour
> > [[User:Astirmays]]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Florence Devouard-3
Le 04/10/15 16:15, Theo10011 a écrit :

> I thought the mandate of this committee was to facilitate and coordinate
> bidding, set up policy and best practices. The page on Meta still mention
> the same as its purpose[1].
>
> When did a committee intended to facilitate an already established, open
> process make the leap to downright owning the process and instead, doing
> away with it all together? We went from an open jury system to finalizing
> things behind closed doors in a physical meeting that seemingly the same
> people attend regularly.
>
> It's downright patronizing to hear plans about rotating wikimania from
> Europe (excluding eastern Europe for some reason?), to North america and
> the "rest of the world". This seems more like someone picking holiday
> destinations, talking about countries, entire continents and rest of the
> world, in a manner so cavalier.
>
> It's constantly mentioned that the open bidding process is unwieldy and too
> cumbersome. While that may be true for the bidding teams, it's still an
> open, accessible process that gives everyone the same chance. The entire
> idea of the committee was to move the process away from a single
> individual's initiative to a group, not make the same individual chair who
> just does away with the entire process and decides things on a whim.
>
> Lastly, I don't think this is the usual WMF communication shortfall. This
> is more of a committee issue, with its quasi-official status, they took
> some liberty with the entire process and their own stated purpose, made
> some sweeping changes and forgot to tell anyone, for months. The foundation
> could have been as out of the loop as the rest of us.
>
>
> Theo


There are roughly three components on the Wikimania committee.
One component is WMF staff.
One component is former and future Wikimania organizers.
One component is community members.

WMF staff does not have the same obligations and standards than the
other members.

The rather unique situation of this committee is that... whilst it
should include much community input... for most years (not all),
Wikimania is actually mostly funded by WMF and beyond funding, some WMF
staff put quite a bit of work in it. To say it bluntly, most of the
time, without WMF input, Wikimania would simply not happen. This is no
criticism to local teams (without them, Wikimania would not occur
either), but a simple statement. WMF is a key stakeholder. What is the
consequence of that from a committee member perspective ?

In my opinion, the consequence to that is that community members on the
committee do not feel that they "own" this committee. It "does" feel
like being invited on a Wikimedia Foundation committee. And as such, it
feels like a sort of special attention/listening should be given to WMF
staff members on that committee. And when things go ashtray... we
hesitate being bold. It is not about forgetting.

So... two examples...

1) early October, Io stated that we should really push the announcement;
Ellie answered that Canada organizer was on an unplanned leave and that
she would prefer to work more on the Canada case before any
announcement; And here it goes... no announcement.

2) last message on the committee list was, on the 2nd, Ellie saying that
"James F. is the owner of the process document announcement" and "I do
think we should post something today if at all possible".
Uh. I answered "yes please, post". What happened ? Nothing. James F. has
not sent ANY message to the committee till the 21th of August (that
is... 6 or 7 weeks ago ?) I have no idea why. Maybe there is a good
reason. But did any members of the committee feel free to publish
anything whilst James is the Chair and Ellie wants more time ? Well,
obviously not.

Good thing the google docs were public, right ?

You are correct. This is not a "Wikimedia Foundation communication" by
large shortfall. This is more of the committee. And this is because it
is "too official" a committee.

Now, beside head rolling... (uh, ouch :)) what do you suggest to fix that ?

Anthere


> [1]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee#Purpose_and_process
>
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Yes and no. Considering that I've been waiting for months for answers to
>> questions about the WMF Annual Plan, I would say that there is much room
>> for improvement in communications.
>>
>> On the other hand, the WMF Comms department itself seems to more or less
>> ok, and I personally think we'll of WMF's chief communications officer.
>>
>> So, some good points, and some room to improve. I agree that the status quo
>> has been this way for awhile and it would be good to see across-the-board
>> communications SLAs.
>>
>> Pine
>> On Oct 4, 2015 12:18 AM, "Mathias Damour" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
>>>
>>>> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
>>>> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet
>> there
>>>> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see
>> here.
>>>> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated
>> is
>>>> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at
>> all.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
>>> professional.
>>>
>>> It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
>>> greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the
>> projets
>>> themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
>>> are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mathias Damour
>>> [[User:Astirmays]]
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pavel Richter-3
2015-10-04 17:42 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:

> Le 04/10/15 16:15, Theo10011 a écrit :
> Now, beside head rolling... (uh, ouch :)) what do you suggest to fix that ?
>


I don't see that *anything* needs fixing here.


So, what happened? The Wikimania committee came to the conclusion that the
current process to select the next Wikimania host is broken (and I think
the committee was right about that). So something needed to happen - and
the committee did something that we
​see ​
not often enough in Wikimedia-land: *they made a decision*.
​A decision they were tasked to take: Think and decide on the next
Wikimania host, and on the process to find one. Nobody ever said that their
job was only to execute a set of old guidlines and processes (which, I
guess, were never "community approved" but rather were around just for a
long, long time).


​So, t
hey abandoned the process, came up with a new one, and decided who would
host Wikimania in 2017 (Montreal seems a great choice, btw - I mean, a
bilingual city has some great opportunities for us, right?).​

​Whats wrong with that? Nothing!

Let's face some truths here:


   1.

   ​Wikimania has become well too big to be run by volunteers. EVERY
   Wikimania since Danzig (at least) happened *only* because the WMF jumped
   in at one point of time
   ​ to rescue
   the whole event. That is not to say that volunteers did not do a great
   job for Wikimania - but the job proved to be too big for volunteers, for at
   least five times in a row. So it was right to abandon the current process
   and replace it with something new.

   2.

   The new process has a lot of problems build in - I think, for example,
   that the decision to exclude major parts of the world from Wikimanias
   (except for every third year, when regions are "up to grabs)​
   ​,
   is
   ​ ​
   wrong. BUT: We now have at least 18 MONTHS to fix this (and possible
   other problems) - thanks to the bold decision of the Wikimania committee.

   3.

   "There are two things in the world you never want to let people see how
   you make 'em: laws and sausages"
   ​ ​
   (Leo McGarry, The West Wing, "Five Votes Down"). And there is one thing
   Wikimedians in this world could not care less
   ​ about​
   : How the next host for Wikimania is found. Let's applaud the great
   people of the Wikimania Committee that they took on that task, came up with
   a great decision for 2017 AND implemented a new (even so not perfect)
   process
   ​while they were at it.​

   4.

   I think with a lot of things in Wikimedia-land, we need MORE bold
   decisions
   ​ (by whomever)​
   , and LESS "community consultation"
   ​ that only leads to some old-timers in en.WP and de.WP voice their
   anger and concerns, but rarely solves the problem that needs solving.​

   5. Dear Wikimania Committee: Your communication of thi
   ​s whole thing ​
   sucked
   ​, big time.​
   Consider yourself scolded. Move on.

​Cheers,

Pavel

>
>
> [1]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee#Purpose_and_process
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes and no. Considering that I've been waiting for months for answers to
>>> questions about the WMF Annual Plan, I would say that there is much room
>>> for improvement in communications.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the WMF Comms department itself seems to more or less
>>> ok, and I personally think we'll of WMF's chief communications officer.
>>>
>>> So, some good points, and some room to improve. I agree that the status
>>> quo
>>> has been this way for awhile and it would be good to see across-the-board
>>> communications SLAs.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> On Oct 4, 2015 12:18 AM, "Mathias Damour" <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
>>>>> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet
>>>>>
>>>> there
>>>
>>>> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see
>>>>>
>>>> here.
>>>
>>>> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated
>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>
>>>> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at
>>>>>
>>>> all.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
>>>> professional.
>>>>
>>>> It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
>>>> greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the
>>>>
>>> projets
>>>
>>>> themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
>>>> are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mathias Damour
>>>> [[User:Astirmays]]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Pavel Richter-3
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
(Sorry, the layout of my last mail was horrible, so here it is again,
hopefully better to read:)

2015-10-04 17:42 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:

> Le 04/10/15 16:15, Theo10011 a écrit :
>
> Now, beside head rolling... (uh, ouch :)) what do you suggest to fix that ?
>
> ​
I don't see that anything needs fixing here.

So, what happened? The Wikimania committee came to the conclusion that the
current
​ ​
process to select the next Wikimania host is broken (and I think the
committee was right
​ ​
about that). So something needed to happen - and the committee did
something that we see
​ ​
not often enough in Wikimedia-land: they made a decision. ​A decision they
were tasked to
​ ​
take: Think and decide on the next Wikimania host, and on the process to
find one. Nobody
​ ​
ever said that their job was only to execute a set of old guidlines and
processes (which, I
​ ​
guess, were never "community approved" but rather were around just for a
long, long time).

​So, they abandoned the process, came up with a new one, and decided who
would host
​ ​
Wikimania in 2017 (Montreal seems a great choice, btw - I mean, a bilingual
city has some
​ ​
great opportunities for us, right?).​

​Whats wrong with that? Nothing!

Let's face some truths here:


   1. ​Wikimania has become well too big to be run by volunteers. EVERY
   Wikimania since Danzig (at least) happened only because the WMF jumped in
   at one point of time to rescue the whole event. That is not to say that
   volunteers did not do a great job for Wikimania - but the job proved to be
   too big for volunteers, for at least five times in a row. So it was right
   to abandon the current process and replace it with something new.
   2. The new process has a lot of problems build in - I think, for
   example, that the decision to exclude major parts of the world from
   Wikimanias (except for every third year, when regions are "up to grabs)​,
   is​ ​wrong. BUT: We now have at least 18 MONTHS to fix this (and possible
   other problems) - thanks to the bold decision of the Wikimania committee.
   3. "There are two things in the world you never want to let people see
   how you make 'em: laws and sausages" (Leo McGarry, The West Wing, "Five
   Votes Down"). And there is one thing Wikimedians in this world could not
   care less​ about​: How the next host for Wikimania is found. Let's applaud
   the great people of the Wikimania Committee that they took on that task,
   came up with a great decision for 2017 AND implemented a new (even so not
   perfect) process ​while they were at it.​
   4. I think with a lot of things in Wikimedia-land, we need MORE bold
   decisions (by whomever)​, and LESS "community consultation"​ that only
   leads to some old-timers in en.WP and de.WP voice their anger and concerns,
   but rarely solves the problem that needs solving.​
   5. ​
   Dear Wikimania Committee: Your communication of thi​s whole thing ​
   sucked​, big time.​ Consider yourself scolded. Move on.


Cheers,

Pavel​


>
> [1]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee#Purpose_and_process
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes and no. Considering that I've been waiting for months for answers to
>>> questions about the WMF Annual Plan, I would say that there is much room
>>> for improvement in communications.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the WMF Comms department itself seems to more or less
>>> ok, and I personally think we'll of WMF's chief communications officer.
>>>
>>> So, some good points, and some room to improve. I agree that the status
>>> quo
>>> has been this way for awhile and it would be good to see across-the-board
>>> communications SLAs.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> On Oct 4, 2015 12:18 AM, "Mathias Damour" <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 04/10/2015 05:36, Craig Franklin a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> I take your point Pine, but "improving communication with the community"
>>>>> seems to have been a WMF priority for as long as I can remember, yet
>>>>>
>>>> there
>>>
>>>> doesn't seem to have been any consistent improvement, as we can see
>>>>>
>>>> here.
>>>
>>>> A new approach and direction to how matters like this are communicated
>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>
>>>> clearly needed, because the current one doesn't seem to be working at
>>>>>
>>>> all.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say that the WMF communication is simply bad, it is pretty
>>>> professional.
>>>>
>>>> It may rather be that an open communication and keeping control on the
>>>> greater part of the decisions (or even conducting the users of the
>>>>
>>> projets
>>>
>>>> themself, as an average internet company does), are "two tendancies that
>>>> are not fully compatible" (to borrow Florence's words).
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mathias Damour
>>>> [[User:Astirmays]]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards,

Pavel Richter
Mobile: +49-151-19645755
Mail: [hidden email]
Twitter: @pavel <https://twitter.com/pavel>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Pavel Richter-3
On 04.10.2015 19:48, Pavel Richter wrote:

> 2015-10-04 17:42 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Le 04/10/15 16:15, Theo10011 a écrit :
>> Now, beside head rolling... (uh, ouch :)) what do you suggest to fix that ?
>
>
> So, what happened? The Wikimania committee came to the conclusion that the
> current process to select the next Wikimania host is broken (and I think
> the committee was right about that). So something needed to happen - and
> the committee did something that we
> ​see ​
> not often enough in Wikimedia-land: *they made a decision*.

This is good.

But I think that the main point to fix is that a decision is valid as
soon it is communicated.

At the moment it does not seem that the local communities were informed
in order to know that the process was broken.

Kind regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Fæ
In reply to this post by Pavel Richter-3
On 4 October 2015 at 18:48, Pavel Richter <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Let's face some truths here:
>    5. Dear Wikimania Committee: Your communication of thi
>    s whole thing
>    sucked
>    , big time.
>    Consider yourself scolded. Move on.

BACKGROUND

Well, yes Pavel, of course "we" are going to move on. It's the old
overused mantra of every time there is a blunder "it's in the past
community, move along now". The problem is we should be able to also
*see* measurable non-subjective changes and improvement to the way
things are done, increasing transparency and putting the volunteer at
the center of decision making, even if resources and most of the work
are paid positions.

I really liked the early reply and effective apology by Florence:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2015-October/079256.html

But I found the response by the current Chair of the committee
unconvincing. The attempt to change thread title and move to a far
less subscribed email group, shows how the strategy is a quick
political "nothing to see here" rather than leadership that shows
active learning and openness:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2015-October/079273.html

CONCLUSION

It would be super if Florence would consider temporarily taking over as
Chair, or starting a public process to ensure some new faces in the
next few months, including a change of the Chairman. This would show
the Committee recognizes this was a real serious failure which should
see proportionate changes of roles on the Committee. If everything
stays exactly the same for the next six months, then this would show
the Committee is more interested in protecting itself, than ensuring
that the unpaid volunteer and community consensus is central to the
way this process *should* be seen to work, and in line with the
original mandate for the Committee itself.

P.S. were I the current Chair, I think I would publicly apologise to
Montreal before stepping down. The way this has been stitched up
behind closed doors is probably an very unfair way for their hosting
of Wikimania to be seen to start off. Most unfortunate.

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimania 2017 Montreal - scooped by Signpost

Michał Buczyński
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Hello All.

Ballsy and sincere mail Pavel, thank you for that and I understand your
points, however as a longstanding wikiperson actually volunteering and a
believer in the open participatory model which built Wikiprojects, I need
to respond and disagree with you in some parts.

> I don't see that anything needs fixing here. So, what happened?
> The Wikimania committee came to the conclusion that the current ​
> ​process to select the next
> Wikimania host is broken (and I think the committee was right ​ ​
> about that). So something needed to happen - and the committee did
> something that we see ​ ​ not often enough in Wikimedia-land:
>
> they made a decision. ​A decision they were tasked to ​ ​ take:
> Think and decide on the next Wikimania host, and on the process to find one.


1. Except clearly at least one com member is unhappy with the process, the
com was somewhat unaware of actual candidates, the decision is suspended,
the change of the game terms was not communicated to anyone in public (not
to mention major stakeholders like Chapters sponsoring Wikimania attendees)
and the whole process is completely not transparent. We are not even sure
if WMF in general (Staff? Board?) supports it.

Fun fact: we have this website thing to document processes and inform
others, they call it Meta. 8-)
And taking a look into https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2017_bids
you don't even see any Montreal. Or info about the major change in the
process.

OTOH, you could see there encouragements to submit bids.

Fun fact #2: this page has been marked as historical by JForester only
minutes ago which looks like a panic management.

> 3\. "There are two things in the world you never want to let people see
> how you make 'em: laws and sausages"
> (Leo McGarry, The West Wing, "Five Votes Down").

Actually, it was Bismarck.

> And there is one thing Wikimedians in this world could not
> care less​ about​: How the next host for Wikimania is found. Let's
> applaud the great people of the Wikimania
>
> Committee that they took on that task, came up with a great decision for
> 2017 AND implemented a new
> (even so not perfect) process ​while they were at it.

Well, some seem to care, at least on these lists or fb (see Josh or Perth
people).

And others care for general transparency and community involvement which
seem to be noticably deteriorating, see the issues with strategic plan. Not
that I require a multilevel RFCs, general venue elections and whatnots but
at least simple message would be more than great to not waste time of the
potential bidders.

I might be wrong but I think that volunteer-driven organizations should be
careful to respect their volunteers. Here I think the ball was somewhere
dropped. I imagine someone actually wanted to off-load the volunteers and
make their lives much better, improve the spending etc. etc., but the
communication failed at some point.

Regarding the community consultation, I feel there are some more people
than "old-timers" of en.wp and de.wp, and what is more these talks are read
by much more people. In many cases I think they were found crucial by WMF
staff as well although I do agree we could improve here, people are often
overburdened and we are running circles.
But it would be very sad to turn into a yet another bureaucracy.

Tl;dr I agree with you that making decisions is important and WMF is the
major stakeholder, but I would put more value into making things fair and
transparent, otherwise people get angry and the decisions are more prone to
fault.

Warm Regards,
michał "aegis maelstrom" buczyński

P.S. Sorry for the editting, some mail client issue.



Dnia 4 października 2015 20:03 Pavel Richter <[hidden email]>
napisał(a):

> 2015-10-04 17:42 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard :
>
>
>     Le 04/10/15 16:15, Theo10011 a écrit :
>
>
>     Now, beside head rolling... (uh, ouch :)) what do you suggest to fix
>     that
>
>     ?
>
>
>     ​
>
>
> I don't see that anything needs fixing here. So, what happened? The
> Wikimania committee came to the conclusion that the current ​ ​
> process to select the next Wikimania host is broken (and I think the
> committee was right ​ ​ about that). So something needed to happen -
> and the committee did something that we see ​ ​ not often enough in
> Wikimedia-land: they made a decision. ​A decision they were tasked to
> ​ ​ take: Think and decide on the next Wikimania host, and on the
> process to find one. Nobody ​ ​ ever said that their job was only to
> execute a set of old guidlines and processes (which, I ​ ​ guess,
> were never "community approved" but rather were around just for a long,
> long time). ​So, they abandoned the process, came up with a new one,
> and decided who would host ​ ​ Wikimania in 2017 (Montreal seems a
> great choice, btw - I mean, a bilingual city has some ​ ​ great
> opportunities for us, right?).​ ​Whats wrong with that? Nothing!
> Let's face some truths here: 1\. ​Wikimania has become well too big to
> be run by volunteers. EVERY Wikimania since Danzig (at least) happened
> only because the WMF jumped in at one point of time to rescue the whole
> event. That is not to say that volunteers did not do a great job for
> Wikimania - but the job proved to be too big for volunteers, for at least
> five times in a row. So it was right to abandon the current process and
> replace it with something new. 2\. The new process has a lot of problems
> build in - I think, for example, that the decision to exclude major parts
> of the world from Wikimanias (except for every third year, when regions
> are "up to grabs)​, is​ ​wrong. BUT: We now have at least 18 MONTHS
> to fix this (and possible other problems) - thanks to the bold decision
> of the Wikimania committee. 3\. "There are two things in the world you
> never want to let people see how you make 'em: laws and sausages" (Leo
> McGarry, The West Wing, "Five Votes Down"). And there is one thing
> Wikimedians in this world could not care less​ about​: How the next
> host for Wikimania is found. Let's applaud the great people of the
> Wikimania Committee that they took on that task, came up with a great
> decision for 2017 AND implemented a new (even so not perfect) process
> ​while they were at it.​ 4\. I think with a lot of things in
> Wikimedia-land, we need MORE bold decisions (by whomever)​, and LESS
> "community consultation"​ that only leads to some old-timers in en.WP
> and de.WP voice their anger and concerns, but rarely solves the problem
> that needs solving.​ 5\. ​ Dear Wikimania Committee: Your
> communication of thi​s whole thing ​ sucked​, big time.​ Consider
> yourself scolded. Move on. Cheers, Pavel​

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