[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Anh Chung
Dear all,

Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to discuss
the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.

A year ago, for the very first time, the movement set up a selection
process to choose the host of the conference, 4 chapters applied and WMDE
was chosen to host the 2014 edition. Setting up this process has improved
the planning of the Wikimedia Conference and it would be ideal to follow
the same organization for next year’s event.

Wikimedia CH did not participate last year, but expressed its willingness
to host for the 2015 edition.

As we are already in September and that the next Wikimedia conference
should be held in May 2015, we believe that the selection process to choose
the next hosting team should begin as soon as possible to obtain the best
deals location wise and also to have the time to prepare the program.

As a representative of a candidate who wishes to apply for the hosting of
the 2015 edition, we would like to open this discussion and put upfront the
suggestion to form:

 *a location committee, in charge of setting up the bidding process and to
evaluate them

**a program committee, in charge of setting up the conference program

By keeping the smooth process established last year, we can address two
important issues, having a cost efficient conference if planned well in
advance, and having a content efficient conference with well defined SMART
objectives ;-)

I took the liberty to set-up a Wikimedia Conference 2015 page, as well as a
bidding page in order to kick off those discussions.

In the hopes of setting up a constructive and collaborative process, I wish
you all a very good day.
_________________________________________________________


Anh CHUNG, Chief Administrative Officer
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Office +41 21 340 66 20
Mobile +41 78 888 76 38
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

James Forrester-2
On 11 September 2014 09:27, Anh Chung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to discuss
> the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.
>

Though I'm sure the event is worthy, I will repeat yet again the request
from the Wikimania Committee for people to please stop calling it "the
Wikimedia Conference" when it isn't about Wikimedia, just some Wikimedia
organisations, and isn't an open conference, against the ethos of Wikimedia.

"Wikimedia Associations Meeting 2015" is much less misleading, and closer
to reality.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Chair, Wikimania Committee

[hidden email]
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
capacity)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Gregory Varnum-2
I think "Wikimedia Affiliates Meeting" or "Wikimedia Movement Affiliates Meeting" would better match the wording used elsewhere.

-greg

_______________
Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.

> On Sep 11, 2014, at 12:42 PM, James Forrester <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 11 September 2014 09:27, Anh Chung <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to discuss
>> the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.
>>
>
> Though I'm sure the event is worthy, I will repeat yet again the request
> from the Wikimania Committee for people to please stop calling it "the
> Wikimedia Conference" when it isn't about Wikimedia, just some Wikimedia
> organisations, and isn't an open conference, against the ethos of Wikimedia.
>
> "Wikimedia Associations Meeting 2015" is much less misleading, and closer
> to reality.
>
> J.
> --
> James D. Forrester
> Chair, Wikimania Committee
>
> [hidden email]
> [[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
> capacity)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by James Forrester-2
On 11.09.2014 18:42, James Forrester wrote:

> On 11 September 2014 09:27, Anh Chung <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to discuss
>> the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.
>>
> Though I'm sure the event is worthy, I will repeat yet again the request
> from the Wikimania Committee for people to please stop calling it "the
> Wikimedia Conference" when it isn't about Wikimedia, just some Wikimedia
> organisations, and isn't an open conference, against the ethos of Wikimedia.
>
> "Wikimedia Associations Meeting 2015" is much less misleading, and closer
> to reality.
>
> J.

Against the funds of WMF.

A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
Wikimania, and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to
Wikimania.

In addition there are not represented "some Wikimedia organisations" but
all Wikimedia organisations, including the affiliated groups.

Until a discussion is not opened and it does not reach a clear majority,
it is called Wikimedia Conference.

Regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Nathan Awrich
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Against the funds of WMF.
>
> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly Wikimania,
> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
>
> In addition there are not represented "some Wikimedia organisations" but
> all Wikimedia organisations, including the affiliated groups.
>
> Until a discussion is not opened and it does not reach a clear majority,
> it is called Wikimedia Conference.
>
> Regards


Wikimedia Affiliate Conference is obviously much more accurate and
descriptive.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

James Forrester-5
In reply to this post by Ilario Valdelli
On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11.09.2014 18:42, James Forrester wrote:
>
>> On 11 September 2014 09:27, Anh Chung <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Dear all,
>>>
>>> Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to discuss
>>> the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.
>>>
>>>  Though I'm sure the event is worthy, I will repeat yet again the request
>> from the Wikimania Committee for people to please stop calling it "the
>> Wikimedia Conference" when it isn't about Wikimedia, just some Wikimedia
>> organisations, and isn't an open conference, against the ethos of
>> Wikimedia.
>>
>> "Wikimedia Associations Meeting 2015" is much less misleading, and closer
>> to reality.
>>
>
> Against the funds of WMF.
>
> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly Wikimania,
> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
>

Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
[hidden email]
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
capacity)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Lodewijk
/me mumbles something about a bikeshed that has a beautiful shade of blue.

2014-09-11 20:06 GMT+02:00 James Forrester <[hidden email]>:

> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 11.09.2014 18:42, James Forrester wrote:
> >
> >> On 11 September 2014 09:27, Anh Chung <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>  Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> Wikimania has been over for a month now and it is already time to
> discuss
> >>> the next Wikimedia event, the Wikimedia Conference.
> >>>
> >>>  Though I'm sure the event is worthy, I will repeat yet again the
> request
> >> from the Wikimania Committee for people to please stop calling it "the
> >> Wikimedia Conference" when it isn't about Wikimedia, just some Wikimedia
> >> organisations, and isn't an open conference, against the ethos of
> >> Wikimedia.
> >>
> >> "Wikimedia Associations Meeting 2015" is much less misleading, and
> closer
> >> to reality.
> >>
> >
> > Against the funds of WMF.
> >
> > A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
> Wikimania,
> > and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
> >
>
> Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.
>
> J.
> --
> James D. Forrester
> [hidden email]
> [[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
> capacity)
> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by James Forrester-5
On 11.09.2014 20:06, James Forrester wrote:

> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Against the funds of WMF.
>>
>> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly Wikimania,
>> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
>>
> Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.
>
> J.

Considering it a lie is an extreme evaluation in my opinion.

In Wikimedia conference there are chapters (~40) and user groups (~15).
At the start it was called "chapters conference", now it's called
Wikimedia Conference because it's more open.

In my opinion it's not a problem to call it again "chapters conference".

To participate it's sufficient to be "representative of a group", not
only of himself.

Considering the principle of "delegation", it may be considered a
Wikimedia Conference.

Regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Isarra Yos
On 11/09/14 18:42, Ilario Valdelli wrote:

> On 11.09.2014 20:06, James Forrester wrote:
>> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Against the funds of WMF.
>>>
>>> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
>>> Wikimania,
>>> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
>>>
>> Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.
>>
>> J.
>
> Considering it a lie is an extreme evaluation in my opinion.
>
> In Wikimedia conference there are chapters (~40) and user groups
> (~15). At the start it was called "chapters conference", now it's
> called Wikimedia Conference because it's more open.
>
> In my opinion it's not a problem to call it again "chapters conference".
>
> To participate it's sufficient to be "representative of a group", not
> only of himself.
>
> Considering the principle of "delegation", it may be considered a
> Wikimedia Conference.
>
> Regards
>

I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby,
nor are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as
yet. Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.

If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?

-I

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Ilario Valdelli
On 11.09.2014 20:48, Isarra Yos wrote:

>
> I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby,
> nor are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests
> as yet. Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
>
> If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
>
> -I
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

You may create your own user group and participate.

I suppose that all people participating in Wikimedia conference don't
represent their own (personal) interests (or they should not).

If you participate in a project it's not so hard to create an user
group. All projects are based on collaboration of individuals, so it
should be not hard to find other members sharing the same interests.

Wikisource created its own, for instance, and they don't need a single
chapter to represent their position.

Regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Risker
I'm with James and Isarra here.  Only a small minority of Wikimedians are
part of chapters and affiliated groups; being a member of an organized
group has nothing to do with being a Wikimedian, or even directly with
Wikimedia itself.  This is an exclusionary conference - not only do you
have to be a member of one of these groups (or otherwise receive an
invitation based on role within the WMF structure or as a speaker) to
attend, but the conference isn't even open to all members of those groups.

Please do not call it "the" Wikimedia conference.  It may be many things,
but it's not that.  "Wikimedia Affiliates Conference" will do fine.

Risker/Anne

On 11 September 2014 15:12, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11.09.2014 20:48, Isarra Yos wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby, nor
>> are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as yet.
>> Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
>>
>> If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
>>
>> -I
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
> You may create your own user group and participate.
>
> I suppose that all people participating in Wikimedia conference don't
> represent their own (personal) interests (or they should not).
>
> If you participate in a project it's not so hard to create an user group.
> All projects are based on collaboration of individuals, so it should be not
> hard to find other members sharing the same interests.
>
> Wikisource created its own, for instance, and they don't need a single
> chapter to represent their position.
>
> Regards
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Leigh Thelmadatter
AHEM .... it is *NOT* easy to create a user group, especially if a chapter is against it.  Look at how long the Wiki Borregos application has been left in limbo by Aff Comm and Ive saved some real doozies of emails from several members of said committee.

Just a small taste... one of the first objections they had to our application was that the term "Borregos" ("ram" in Spanish) was a trademark of the Tec de Monterrey... and we are a group of students and faculty from the same institution!






> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:26:24 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015
>
> I'm with James and Isarra here.  Only a small minority of Wikimedians are
> part of chapters and affiliated groups; being a member of an organized
> group has nothing to do with being a Wikimedian, or even directly with
> Wikimedia itself.  This is an exclusionary conference - not only do you
> have to be a member of one of these groups (or otherwise receive an
> invitation based on role within the WMF structure or as a speaker) to
> attend, but the conference isn't even open to all members of those groups.
>
> Please do not call it "the" Wikimedia conference.  It may be many things,
> but it's not that.  "Wikimedia Affiliates Conference" will do fine.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 11 September 2014 15:12, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 11.09.2014 20:48, Isarra Yos wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby, nor
> >> are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as yet.
> >> Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
> >>
> >> If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
> >>
> >> -I
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> > You may create your own user group and participate.
> >
> > I suppose that all people participating in Wikimedia conference don't
> > represent their own (personal) interests (or they should not).
> >
> > If you participate in a project it's not so hard to create an user group.
> > All projects are based on collaboration of individuals, so it should be not
> > hard to find other members sharing the same interests.
> >
> > Wikisource created its own, for instance, and they don't need a single
> > chapter to represent their position.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > Tel: +41764821371
> > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Nathan Awrich
Since before planning gets underway is the perfect time to clarify the
conference title, and Anh Chung was kind enough to create the pages, I've
taken the liberty of moving them to [[Wikimedia Affiliates Conference
2015]].
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Bence Damokos
In reply to this post by Isarra Yos
I believe names and how we treat them both hold great power and tell a lot
about the name-giver and power relationships.

"Wikimedia" means different things to different people (possibly all
valid), it is both the name for the concept of the different sister
projects and their combined ethos forming a network or movement [which
involves some people interested in Meta issues who have not been invited to
the Wikimedia Conference, and many many people who have been], as well as
the name for anything that comes under the substituent parts of the network
(all the individual editors, photographers, etc.) and sets of these groups
(and individuals can be members of Wikimedia under a multitude of ways
often belonging to both groups at the same time). The Wikimedia Conference,
nor Wikimania will ever be truly open to all people of the second group
(also rightfully called Wikimedia), but it can aim to be representative of
the first. Hundreds of volunteers have put their time into building up the
Wikimedia Conference idea and brand, and taking it away just because they
have yet to achieve 100% success on one difficult to define metric seems
ill-advised.

I don't think taking away the name of the conference by trying to box it
into overspecification (by way of adding extra words) would be the right
direction: it sends the wrong message to the  Wikimedians (who happened to
be chapter members at one time or another) who have built up the event for
the past 5-6 years as if they are not eligible to conduct activities under
the Wikimedia name unless they invite absolutely everyone, and it opens the
door for lazyness (if you call it the Affiliates Conference, don't complain
if non-affiliates are not invited, whereas if you call it the Wikimedia
Conference that will keep the organisers and participants accountable to
making it more representative).


Just as background, the conference has over the years and almost from the
start went beyond chapters: first the WMF Board and staff, Chapters
Committee members (including people who were not a member of any actual
chapter at the time), then the movement roles discussion group was invited,
followed by user groups, AffCom (still having members not part of any
affiliate at the time) and thorgs, as well as the FDC (again, with members
who are not members in any affiliate) were invited with some side meetings
that had wider participation. It is no longer tied to just the affiliate
organisations but simply to the governance and "Wikimedians active offline
[as well as online]" side of the movement (people falling under one of the
 interpretations of "Wikimedia").

Last year I made the proposal to some of the organisers to think about
opening a certain number of places for volunteers dedicated to the future
of the movement, strategic and governance issues to be able to freely
attend, to better live up to the name and the valid concern that tying
participation to organisational roles leaves some people out that should be
included. I could see that happening for the 2015 conference if the
organisers work out the details, but even in that case I don't see the
conference as being attractive to 80 thousand editors and that is perfectly
fine.

In any case, renaming the conference without the consent of the pool of
participants (which might be given, after all the Conference had a
different name in the first years) seems like a move out of power that
belittles the work of the people involved. (And I think this is valid
statement, even considering the valid anguish of all the brilliant
volunteers who could not attend in previous years - this change has to come
from the organisers to be "real".)

Best regards,
Bence

(Personal view, though I was lucky to organise the 2011 conference and
participate in various roles in others; I don't at the moment hold any
position serving as an entry ticket to the 2015 event, though I am
considering paying my way if the conference opens up places)



On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/09/14 18:42, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
>
>> On 11.09.2014 20:06, James Forrester wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Against the funds of WMF.
>>>>
>>>> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
>>>> Wikimania,
>>>> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
>>>>
>>>>  Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.
>>>
>>> J.
>>>
>>
>> Considering it a lie is an extreme evaluation in my opinion.
>>
>> In Wikimedia conference there are chapters (~40) and user groups (~15).
>> At the start it was called "chapters conference", now it's called Wikimedia
>> Conference because it's more open.
>>
>> In my opinion it's not a problem to call it again "chapters conference".
>>
>> To participate it's sufficient to be "representative of a group", not
>> only of himself.
>>
>> Considering the principle of "delegation", it may be considered a
>> Wikimedia Conference.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
> I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby, nor
> are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as yet.
> Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
>
> If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
>
> -I
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Nathan Awrich
Hi Bence,

We strive not to be bound by bureaucracy, don't we? If we discover that a
simple name (as generic as "Wikimedia Conference") is slightly misleading,
or not completely accurate, then why should we avoid changing it?
Particularly as it appears that no process has begun to plan the next
coming conference?

If a group of people in New England USA (my geographic area) got together,
perhaps with some of the chapters in the Eastern US, and created an
event... We would not call it "Wikimedia Conference", even though we would
have as much right to that name as the affiliate conference. That would be
confusing, and misleading.

So at a moment when there is no cost to the change, no chance of further
confusion, and before resources are invested in this name for the next
cycle... This is the perfect opportunity to address what is, you must
admit, a minor concern easily solved.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe names and how we treat them both hold great power and tell a lot
> about the name-giver and power relationships.
>
> "Wikimedia" means different things to different people (possibly all
> valid), it is both the name for the concept of the different sister
> projects and their combined ethos forming a network or movement [which
> involves some people interested in Meta issues who have not been invited to
> the Wikimedia Conference, and many many people who have been], as well as
> the name for anything that comes under the substituent parts of the network
> (all the individual editors, photographers, etc.) and sets of these groups
> (and individuals can be members of Wikimedia under a multitude of ways
> often belonging to both groups at the same time). The Wikimedia Conference,
> nor Wikimania will ever be truly open to all people of the second group
> (also rightfully called Wikimedia), but it can aim to be representative of
> the first. Hundreds of volunteers have put their time into building up the
> Wikimedia Conference idea and brand, and taking it away just because they
> have yet to achieve 100% success on one difficult to define metric seems
> ill-advised.
>
> I don't think taking away the name of the conference by trying to box it
> into overspecification (by way of adding extra words) would be the right
> direction: it sends the wrong message to the  Wikimedians (who happened to
> be chapter members at one time or another) who have built up the event for
> the past 5-6 years as if they are not eligible to conduct activities under
> the Wikimedia name unless they invite absolutely everyone, and it opens the
> door for lazyness (if you call it the Affiliates Conference, don't complain
> if non-affiliates are not invited, whereas if you call it the Wikimedia
> Conference that will keep the organisers and participants accountable to
> making it more representative).
>
>
> Just as background, the conference has over the years and almost from the
> start went beyond chapters: first the WMF Board and staff, Chapters
> Committee members (including people who were not a member of any actual
> chapter at the time), then the movement roles discussion group was invited,
> followed by user groups, AffCom (still having members not part of any
> affiliate at the time) and thorgs, as well as the FDC (again, with members
> who are not members in any affiliate) were invited with some side meetings
> that had wider participation. It is no longer tied to just the affiliate
> organisations but simply to the governance and "Wikimedians active offline
> [as well as online]" side of the movement (people falling under one of the
>  interpretations of "Wikimedia").
>
> Last year I made the proposal to some of the organisers to think about
> opening a certain number of places for volunteers dedicated to the future
> of the movement, strategic and governance issues to be able to freely
> attend, to better live up to the name and the valid concern that tying
> participation to organisational roles leaves some people out that should be
> included. I could see that happening for the 2015 conference if the
> organisers work out the details, but even in that case I don't see the
> conference as being attractive to 80 thousand editors and that is perfectly
> fine.
>
> In any case, renaming the conference without the consent of the pool of
> participants (which might be given, after all the Conference had a
> different name in the first years) seems like a move out of power that
> belittles the work of the people involved. (And I think this is valid
> statement, even considering the valid anguish of all the brilliant
> volunteers who could not attend in previous years - this change has to come
> from the organisers to be "real".)
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> (Personal view, though I was lucky to organise the 2011 conference and
> participate in various roles in others; I don't at the moment hold any
> position serving as an entry ticket to the 2015 event, though I am
> considering paying my way if the conference opens up places)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 11/09/14 18:42, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
> >
> >> On 11.09.2014 20:06, James Forrester wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Against the funds of WMF.
> >>>>
> >>>> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
> >>>> Wikimania,
> >>>> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to Wikimania.
> >>>>
> >>>>  Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a lie.
> >>>
> >>> J.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Considering it a lie is an extreme evaluation in my opinion.
> >>
> >> In Wikimedia conference there are chapters (~40) and user groups (~15).
> >> At the start it was called "chapters conference", now it's called
> Wikimedia
> >> Conference because it's more open.
> >>
> >> In my opinion it's not a problem to call it again "chapters conference".
> >>
> >> To participate it's sufficient to be "representative of a group", not
> >> only of himself.
> >>
> >> Considering the principle of "delegation", it may be considered a
> >> Wikimedia Conference.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >>
> > I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby, nor
> > are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as yet.
> > Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
> >
> > If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
> >
> > -I
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Bence Damokos
The name could be changed if the participants/organisers want to change it.
As I tried to point out, I don't see the name as the underlying problem
people really have, and changing it will not solve the problem of exclusion
people see.

We can make a conference that has a participants list that involves people
that *should *or at least the people that really *want* to be there, we can
also rename the conference for the people that *are *currently there and
forget about those that want and should be there. I'd rather focus on the
former.

Regardless, I do feel an emotional connection to the name and I expect many
people that have participated or organised it might feel this and I
appreciate that those who have not been there can see it as a minor thing
that can be changed without any cost. It might not be perfect, but it does
have history and I do contend that the people that first started using it
are Wikimedia, and they should not feel guilty about having come up with
the idea first. Indeed, at this time, resources have been invested into the
name and confusion is ebbing around the "Wikimedia Conference" name due to
the years of history behind it.

But in closing, I will once again point to my statements that names are
symbolic and they can be changed. If the participants change the name that
sends a totally different vibe than if the change is imposed on the
participants, even if the end result is the same new name.

Best regards,
Bence

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Bence,
>
> We strive not to be bound by bureaucracy, don't we? If we discover that a
> simple name (as generic as "Wikimedia Conference") is slightly misleading,
> or not completely accurate, then why should we avoid changing it?
> Particularly as it appears that no process has begun to plan the next
> coming conference?
>
> If a group of people in New England USA (my geographic area) got together,
> perhaps with some of the chapters in the Eastern US, and created an
> event... We would not call it "Wikimedia Conference", even though we would
> have as much right to that name as the affiliate conference. That would be
> confusing, and misleading.
>
> So at a moment when there is no cost to the change, no chance of further
> confusion, and before resources are invested in this name for the next
> cycle... This is the perfect opportunity to address what is, you must
> admit, a minor concern easily solved.
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I believe names and how we treat them both hold great power and tell a
> lot
> > about the name-giver and power relationships.
> >
> > "Wikimedia" means different things to different people (possibly all
> > valid), it is both the name for the concept of the different sister
> > projects and their combined ethos forming a network or movement [which
> > involves some people interested in Meta issues who have not been invited
> to
> > the Wikimedia Conference, and many many people who have been], as well as
> > the name for anything that comes under the substituent parts of the
> network
> > (all the individual editors, photographers, etc.) and sets of these
> groups
> > (and individuals can be members of Wikimedia under a multitude of ways
> > often belonging to both groups at the same time). The Wikimedia
> Conference,
> > nor Wikimania will ever be truly open to all people of the second group
> > (also rightfully called Wikimedia), but it can aim to be representative
> of
> > the first. Hundreds of volunteers have put their time into building up
> the
> > Wikimedia Conference idea and brand, and taking it away just because they
> > have yet to achieve 100% success on one difficult to define metric seems
> > ill-advised.
> >
> > I don't think taking away the name of the conference by trying to box it
> > into overspecification (by way of adding extra words) would be the right
> > direction: it sends the wrong message to the  Wikimedians (who happened
> to
> > be chapter members at one time or another) who have built up the event
> for
> > the past 5-6 years as if they are not eligible to conduct activities
> under
> > the Wikimedia name unless they invite absolutely everyone, and it opens
> the
> > door for lazyness (if you call it the Affiliates Conference, don't
> complain
> > if non-affiliates are not invited, whereas if you call it the Wikimedia
> > Conference that will keep the organisers and participants accountable to
> > making it more representative).
> >
> >
> > Just as background, the conference has over the years and almost from the
> > start went beyond chapters: first the WMF Board and staff, Chapters
> > Committee members (including people who were not a member of any actual
> > chapter at the time), then the movement roles discussion group was
> invited,
> > followed by user groups, AffCom (still having members not part of any
> > affiliate at the time) and thorgs, as well as the FDC (again, with
> members
> > who are not members in any affiliate) were invited with some side
> meetings
> > that had wider participation. It is no longer tied to just the affiliate
> > organisations but simply to the governance and "Wikimedians active
> offline
> > [as well as online]" side of the movement (people falling under one of
> the
> >  interpretations of "Wikimedia").
> >
> > Last year I made the proposal to some of the organisers to think about
> > opening a certain number of places for volunteers dedicated to the future
> > of the movement, strategic and governance issues to be able to freely
> > attend, to better live up to the name and the valid concern that tying
> > participation to organisational roles leaves some people out that should
> be
> > included. I could see that happening for the 2015 conference if the
> > organisers work out the details, but even in that case I don't see the
> > conference as being attractive to 80 thousand editors and that is
> perfectly
> > fine.
> >
> > In any case, renaming the conference without the consent of the pool of
> > participants (which might be given, after all the Conference had a
> > different name in the first years) seems like a move out of power that
> > belittles the work of the people involved. (And I think this is valid
> > statement, even considering the valid anguish of all the brilliant
> > volunteers who could not attend in previous years - this change has to
> come
> > from the organisers to be "real".)
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence
> >
> > (Personal view, though I was lucky to organise the 2011 conference and
> > participate in various roles in others; I don't at the moment hold any
> > position serving as an entry ticket to the 2015 event, though I am
> > considering paying my way if the conference opens up places)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 11/09/14 18:42, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 11.09.2014 20:06, James Forrester wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 11 September 2014 10:52, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>  Against the funds of WMF.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A second conference open to the public would be a second yearly
> > >>>> Wikimania,
> > >>>> and to open it means to have a budget more or less equal to
> Wikimania.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  Indeed, which is why we keep asking for the name to stop being a
> lie.
> > >>>
> > >>> J.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Considering it a lie is an extreme evaluation in my opinion.
> > >>
> > >> In Wikimedia conference there are chapters (~40) and user groups
> (~15).
> > >> At the start it was called "chapters conference", now it's called
> > Wikimedia
> > >> Conference because it's more open.
> > >>
> > >> In my opinion it's not a problem to call it again "chapters
> conference".
> > >>
> > >> To participate it's sufficient to be "representative of a group", not
> > >> only of himself.
> > >>
> > >> Considering the principle of "delegation", it may be considered a
> > >> Wikimedia Conference.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >>
> > >>
> > > I'm part of the Wikimedia movement, but there are no chapters nearby,
> nor
> > > are there any user groups that I know of relevant to my interests as
> yet.
> > > Thus there is nobody to represent me but myself.
> > >
> > > If this is Wikimedia, why can't I go to a Wikimedia conference?
> > >
> > > -I
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Risker
On 11.09.2014 21:26, Risker wrote:
>
> Please do not call it "the" Wikimedia conference.  It may be many things,
> but it's not that.  "Wikimedia Affiliates Conference" will do fine.
>
> Risker/Anne
>

I think that the misunderstanding is here.

This is not "the" Wikimedia Conference, this is one of several
wikimedia/wikipedia conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiCon (it's a limited example).

I think that the idea that this is "the" wikimedia conference is in the
head of someone.

Calling it wikicon, or wikiconference, or wikimedia conference change a
little bit.

No one can have another Wikimania, but all people can have their own
Wikimedia Conference/Wikicon/Wikiconference.

So the change of the name in "Wikimedia Affiliations conference" is an
imposition of few people to use a name that belongs to no one, neither
to affiliated members nor to individual wiki(p/m)edians.


Regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Bence Damokos
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The name could be changed if the participants/organisers want to change it.
> As I tried to point out, I don't see the name as the underlying problem
> people really have, and changing it will not solve the problem of exclusion
> people see.
>
> We can make a conference that has a participants list that involves people
> that *should *or at least the people that really *want* to be there, we can
> also rename the conference for the people that *are *currently there and
> forget about those that want and should be there. I'd rather focus on the
> former.
>
> Regardless, I do feel an emotional connection to the name and I expect many
> people that have participated or organised it might feel this and I
> appreciate that those who have not been there can see it as a minor thing
> that can be changed without any cost. It might not be perfect, but it does
> have history and I do contend that the people that first started using it
> are Wikimedia, and they should not feel guilty about having come up with
> the idea first. Indeed, at this time, resources have been invested into the
> name and confusion is ebbing around the "Wikimedia Conference" name due to
> the years of history behind it.
>
> But in closing, I will once again point to my statements that names are
> symbolic and they can be changed. If the participants change the name that
> sends a totally different vibe than if the change is imposed on the
> participants, even if the end result is the same new name.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence


If the as-yet undetermined organizers choose to name it Wikimedia
Conference, then I suppose no one will act to force them to stop. But we
are Wikimedia as much as the organizers and participants are, as much as
hundreds of thousands of volunteers are. In a "Wikimedia Conference" you
might expect it to be open to those Wikimedians. With a  narrower theme of
governance, I doubt the prediction of it morphing into a second Wikimania
would come true.

And while I accept your assertion that the name has history and meaning to
those who have participated there, I remain skeptical at the power the name
holds for you and others. It is, as you'll agree, a fairly generic name.
And less than a handful of events over as many years does not a venerable
tradition make. So I would hope that the organizers, whoever they turn out
to be, will make the simple gesture of adding a single word to the name of
the event. It is still Wikimedia; it's just aimed at affiliates, those who
organize and have attended the event up through now.

Indeed, the conference of affiliates that you've attended in the past is
valuable and worthy. I'd suggest you allow others interested to attend if
resources permit, but I wouldn't ask you to fundamentally alter the nature
of the event. Merely make it clear whom you represent, so that others don't
feel you claim to represent them when you do not -- as Ilario seemed to
with his "principle of delegation" comment.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Ilario Valdelli
On 11.09.2014 22:27, Nathan wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> But in closing, I will once again point to my statements that names are
>> symbolic and they can be changed. If the participants change the name that
>> sends a totally different vibe than if the change is imposed on the
>> participants, even if the end result is the same new name.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bence
>
> Indeed, the conference of affiliates that you've attended in the past is
> valuable and worthy. I'd suggest you allow others interested to attend if
> resources permit, but I wouldn't ask you to fundamentally alter the nature
> of the event. Merely make it clear whom you represent, so that others don't
> feel you claim to represent them when you do not -- as Ilario seemed to
> with his "principle of delegation" comment.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

It's different.

The question to limit participants is more an organizational question
than a need to close the access.

Personally I supported a lot the idea to have "regional" or "thematic"
Wikimedia conferences.

The affiliated groups uses the name "Wikimedia Conference" but this name
doesn't belong to them and they don't require that it must be unique.

Naturally if they decide for the name "Wikimedia Affililiatons
Conference" they must have the right to ask that no one will use the
same name in organizing a conference.

Regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Conference 2015

Bence Damokos
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
I can see that people who are (also/only/additionally) part of different
interpretations of the word Wikimedia might feel excluded by the use of the
name by a subset of people who also make up a valid constellation under the
name Wikimedia. I cannot tell if this feeling involves the small number of
posters on this list or is a  wider feeling. Similarly, I can only speak
for my own opinion.

Changing the name going forward could alleviate those feelings and I am not
opposed to such a decision by the participants.

Nevertheless, I still claim that the conference needs to continue to be
improved rather than renamed (as the latter will unlikely to solve wider
issues about the questions of who makes certain decisions and where
important discussions are had in the movement), and I tend to agree with
Ilario that the Wikimedia Conference X does not necessarily have to be
exclusively used for this conference.

Best regards,
Bence
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