[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
Hi,

A few days ago, the Israeli parliament, with the support of Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, blocked a legal change on that would have
given the LGBT community the right to become parents. The new law denies
state-supported surrogacy to LGBT couples and single men.

In response, Israel’s LGBT Task Force called publicly for a strike on
Sunday, "The LGBT community is calling upon you, the LGBT and community
supporters, to join us in a one-day nationwide strike on Sunday, July 22,
Tisha Be’av".

During the last few days, a huge list of big companies and organizations in
Israel *publicized *their support and joined the strike by allowing their
employees to take a paid day off work to join the nationwide protest.

This morning, the board of Wikimedia Israel, alongside with other
organizations joined this call and published this announcement:
https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276
https://twitter.com/WikimediaIL/status/1020214512392302592
<https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276>

*"Wikimedia Israel supports the just struggle for full equality, led by the
Israeli LGTBQ community.*

*Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender, sexual preference,
religion, origin, or disability is a central value in the international
Wikimedia Movement. *

*The current outcry for the right for parenthood, indiscriminate medical
treatment, and protection against violent statements by public figures
against the LGTBQ community, is a part of the grand and continuous struggle
for full rights and legitimacy to the Israeli LGTBQ community, and we
support them in their struggle."*



*Itzik Edri*
Chairperson
[hidden email]
+972-54-5878078
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Fæ
Congratulations to the Wikimedia Israel board for taking positive
action for equality.

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 08:57, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> A few days ago, the Israeli parliament, with the support of Israeli Prime
> Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, blocked a legal change on that would have
> given the LGBT community the right to become parents. The new law denies
> state-supported surrogacy to LGBT couples and single men.
>
> In response, Israel’s LGBT Task Force called publicly for a strike on
> Sunday, "The LGBT community is calling upon you, the LGBT and community
> supporters, to join us in a one-day nationwide strike on Sunday, July 22,
> Tisha Be’av".
>
> During the last few days, a huge list of big companies and organizations in
> Israel *publicized *their support and joined the strike by allowing their
> employees to take a paid day off work to join the nationwide protest.
>
> This morning, the board of Wikimedia Israel, alongside with other
> organizations joined this call and published this announcement:
> https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276
> https://twitter.com/WikimediaIL/status/1020214512392302592
> <https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276>
>
> *"Wikimedia Israel supports the just struggle for full equality, led by the
> Israeli LGTBQ community.*
>
> *Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender, sexual preference,
> religion, origin, or disability is a central value in the international
> Wikimedia Movement. *
>
> *The current outcry for the right for parenthood, indiscriminate medical
> treatment, and protection against violent statements by public figures
> against the LGTBQ community, is a part of the grand and continuous struggle
> for full rights and legitimacy to the Israeli LGTBQ community, and we
> support them in their struggle."*
>
>
>
> *Itzik Edri*
> Chairperson
> [hidden email]
> +972-54-5878078
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Shlomi Fish
In reply to this post by Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
Hi Itzik,

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:57:12 +0300
Itzik - Wikimedia Israel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A few days ago, the Israeli parliament, with the support of Israeli Prime
> Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, blocked a legal change on that would have
> given the LGBT community the right to become parents. The new law denies
> state-supported surrogacy to LGBT couples and single men.
>
> In response, Israel’s LGBT Task Force called publicly for a strike on
> Sunday, "The LGBT community is calling upon you, the LGBT and community
> supporters, to join us in a one-day nationwide strike on Sunday, July 22,
> Tisha Be’av".
>

I do not oppose the LGBT movement, but please explain how an official support
of that falls under the global Wikimedia project's mission, and does not
dilute our policy of avoiding having a stance on issues that are unrelated to
it?

Regards,

        Shlomi

> During the last few days, a huge list of big companies and organizations in
> Israel *publicized *their support and joined the strike by allowing their
> employees to take a paid day off work to join the nationwide protest.
>
> This morning, the board of Wikimedia Israel, alongside with other
> organizations joined this call and published this announcement:
> https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276
> https://twitter.com/WikimediaIL/status/1020214512392302592
> <https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276>
>
> *"Wikimedia Israel supports the just struggle for full equality, led by the
> Israeli LGTBQ community.*
>
> *Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender, sexual preference,
> religion, origin, or disability is a central value in the international
> Wikimedia Movement. *
>
> *The current outcry for the right for parenthood, indiscriminate medical
> treatment, and protection against violent statements by public figures
> against the LGTBQ community, is a part of the grand and continuous struggle
> for full rights and legitimacy to the Israeli LGTBQ community, and we
> support them in their struggle."*
>
>
>
> *Itzik Edri*
> Chairperson
> [hidden email]
> +972-54-5878078
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> [hidden email] Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Optimising Code for Speed - http://shlom.in/optimise

I’m not an actor — I just play one on T.V.
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Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
In reply to this post by Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
Hi,

"a legal change on that would have given the LGBT community the right to
become parents"

If I read correctly, this is simply not true. It denied the right to use
gestational surrogacy. They can adopt though.

Note that gestational surrogacy is not a simple issue and it is highly
political. I'm sure many wikimedians oppose it, among which I include
myself. Surrogacy has nothing to do with LGBT rights, and everything to do
with exploitation of women, and more particularly, women of less advantaged
social classes.

It is sad to see a Wikimedia chapter to take this official position. I hope
WMF never follows these steps.

Best,

Mario




On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A few days ago, the Israeli parliament, with the support of Israeli Prime
> Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, blocked a legal change on that would have
> given the LGBT community the right to become parents. The new law denies
> state-supported surrogacy to LGBT couples and single men.
>
> In response, Israel’s LGBT Task Force called publicly for a strike on
> Sunday, "The LGBT community is calling upon you, the LGBT and community
> supporters, to join us in a one-day nationwide strike on Sunday, July 22,
> Tisha Be’av".
>
> During the last few days, a huge list of big companies and organizations in
> Israel *publicized *their support and joined the strike by allowing their
> employees to take a paid day off work to join the nationwide protest.
>
> This morning, the board of Wikimedia Israel, alongside with other
> organizations joined this call and published this announcement:
> https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276
> https://twitter.com/WikimediaIL/status/1020214512392302592
> <https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276>
>
> *"Wikimedia Israel supports the just struggle for full equality, led by the
> Israeli LGTBQ community.*
>
> *Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender, sexual preference,
> religion, origin, or disability is a central value in the international
> Wikimedia Movement. *
>
> *The current outcry for the right for parenthood, indiscriminate medical
> treatment, and protection against violent statements by public figures
> against the LGTBQ community, is a part of the grand and continuous struggle
> for full rights and legitimacy to the Israeli LGTBQ community, and we
> support them in their struggle."*
>
>
>
> *Itzik Edri*
> Chairperson
> [hidden email]
> +972-54-5878078
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Gregory Varnum-2
Taking off my “staff hat” and not weighing in on WMIL taking this stance, but did want to correct one claim and offer some context on this issue overall. :)

Having worked on LGBTQ issues most of my professional career, and being a gay man planning on having a child one day, I feel confident I can say surrogacy laws very much relate to LGBTQ rights (as well as others). I spent a fair amount of time working on the topic for LGBTQ organizations around the world. It is also an issue often intentionally used to target LGBTQ families (according to the laws’ authors). The issue came up just last year in the USA as an effort to “minimize the impact of same-gender marriage victories”. Incidentally some versions discussed in the US could have financially punished employers that treated LGBTQ employees with children the same as non-LGBTQ employees with children.

In short, adoption is not the only route and for some it is not a comfortable or sometimes viable option (for personal or sometimes complicated reasons). As such, surrogacy is indeed an option many LGBTQ families pursue. As far as it being an alternative, that is usually true, but it is also true for non-LGBTQ families and I am not aware of viable political movements successfully suggesting non-LGBTQ families should not worry about surrogacy laws as adoptions are an alternative option for them.

Regardless of how you feel about this particular action, I believe it is important we talk about it factually. WMIL’s claim that this issue has to do with LGBTQ rights is accurate - if we are to believe the claims of LGBTQ organizations around the world and lawmakers who over the years have sponsored the types of laws in question.

However, unless you are suggesting your opinion on the actual action WMIL took would have changed if they had instead talked about the audience you personally believe it impacts most - I am not sure how it relates or matters.

-greg

PS. For what it is worth, as a LGBTQ employee of the Wikimedia Foundation, I am proud and better able to focus on my work as I personally feel the Foundation has been supportive of its LGBTQ employees, direct volunteers, and recruits. Having worked elsewhere in jobs where that was not always the case, I am keenly aware of the impact a silent, unsupportive, or “tolerant” environment can have on productivity, morale, quality, retention, and recruiting efforts for both LGBTQ and non-LGBTQ people within the organization. I am also glad that at this moment the US government is not financially punishing the Foundation for employing me as I grow my family simply because I’m gay (or alternatively forcing the Foundation to make me pay more in taxes than my non-LGBTQ colleagues) - that has historically not always been the case, and may not always be the case in the future.

_______________
Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.

> On Jul 21, 2018, at 1:51 AM, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> "a legal change on that would have given the LGBT community the right to
> become parents"
>
> If I read correctly, this is simply not true. It denied the right to use
> gestational surrogacy. They can adopt though.
>
> Note that gestational surrogacy is not a simple issue and it is highly
> political. I'm sure many wikimedians oppose it, among which I include
> myself. Surrogacy has nothing to do with LGBT rights, and everything to do
> with exploitation of women, and more particularly, women of less advantaged
> social classes.
>
> It is sad to see a Wikimedia chapter to take this official position. I hope
> WMF never follows these steps.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A few days ago, the Israeli parliament, with the support of Israeli Prime
>> Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, blocked a legal change on that would have
>> given the LGBT community the right to become parents. The new law denies
>> state-supported surrogacy to LGBT couples and single men.
>>
>> In response, Israel’s LGBT Task Force called publicly for a strike on
>> Sunday, "The LGBT community is calling upon you, the LGBT and community
>> supporters, to join us in a one-day nationwide strike on Sunday, July 22,
>> Tisha Be’av".
>>
>> During the last few days, a huge list of big companies and organizations in
>> Israel *publicized *their support and joined the strike by allowing their
>> employees to take a paid day off work to join the nationwide protest.
>>
>> This morning, the board of Wikimedia Israel, alongside with other
>> organizations joined this call and published this announcement:
>> https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276
>> https://twitter.com/WikimediaIL/status/1020214512392302592
>> <https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaIL/posts/1716487061739276>
>>
>> *"Wikimedia Israel supports the just struggle for full equality, led by the
>> Israeli LGTBQ community.*
>>
>> *Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender, sexual preference,
>> religion, origin, or disability is a central value in the international
>> Wikimedia Movement. *
>>
>> *The current outcry for the right for parenthood, indiscriminate medical
>> treatment, and protection against violent statements by public figures
>> against the LGTBQ community, is a part of the grand and continuous struggle
>> for full rights and legitimacy to the Israeli LGTBQ community, and we
>> support them in their struggle."*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Itzik Edri*
>> Chairperson
>> [hidden email]
>> +972-54-5878078
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:56 AM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>  As far as it being an alternative, that is usually true, but it is also
> true for non-LGBTQ families and I am not aware of viable political
> movements successfully suggesting non-LGBTQ families should not worry about
> surrogacy laws as adoptions are an alternative option for them.
>
>
Well, so you just met someone who suggests exactly that for non-LGBTQ
families and who actively participates in campaigns against legalization of
surrogacy in his country.

This is actually a position held by many organizations, just to name a few:
the "National Network Against Wombs for Rent" and the  "We are not Pots"
campaign in Spain or the "Mexican Feminists Against Wombs for Rent" in
Mexico.

These positions are also held by some feminist authors such as Kajsa Ekis
Ekman, Sylviane Agacinski or Silvia Federici.

My point is not trying to convince you of my position. I do not think this
is the right forum to debate politics beyond WMF mission. My point is that
if the WMF or its affiliates take such positions beyond its mission, it
will be extremely damaging to the community, since this is just alienating
to all members of the community whose political positions do not match
exactly WMF's framework (heavily influenced by US narrow ideological
spectrum).

I'm not asking for the WMF or its affiliates to be against surrogacy, just
the same way I don't ask for them to condemn apartheid policies against
Muslims in Israel or the genocide in Gaza. I'm just asking the WMF and its
affiliates to acknowledge that we are a global and diverse community united
for a mission, and that entering into political advocacy beyond its mission
is detrimental to this global perspective and diversity.

Best,

Mario
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Gregory Varnum-2
I think you misunderstood my point there. ;)

I was speaking to your comment that it was incorrectly labeled a LGBTQ issue because of adoption. I did not mean to suggest no one is against surrogacy or that they are not promoting adoption as an alternative. I was indicating that to my knowledge those organizations are not telling non-LGBTQ people that the laws are not of interest to them because they can adopt. Looking at their sites, they seem to want all people (LGBTQ and non-LGBTQ) to see it as related to their lives and rights.

Again, I am not commenting here on if organizations should engage, just pointing out that regardless of someone’s stance on the issue or this action, the issue remains one of relevance to LGBTQ rights (and others) and WMIL labeling it as a LGBTQ rights issue was accurate. :)

-greg

_______________
Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.

> On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:56 AM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> As far as it being an alternative, that is usually true, but it is also
>> true for non-LGBTQ families and I am not aware of viable political
>> movements successfully suggesting non-LGBTQ families should not worry about
>> surrogacy laws as adoptions are an alternative option for them.
>>
>>
> Well, so you just met someone who suggests exactly that for non-LGBTQ
> families and who actively participates in campaigns against legalization of
> surrogacy in his country.
>
> This is actually a position held by many organizations, just to name a few:
> the "National Network Against Wombs for Rent" and the  "We are not Pots"
> campaign in Spain or the "Mexican Feminists Against Wombs for Rent" in
> Mexico.
>
> These positions are also held by some feminist authors such as Kajsa Ekis
> Ekman, Sylviane Agacinski or Silvia Federici.
>
> My point is not trying to convince you of my position. I do not think this
> is the right forum to debate politics beyond WMF mission. My point is that
> if the WMF or its affiliates take such positions beyond its mission, it
> will be extremely damaging to the community, since this is just alienating
> to all members of the community whose political positions do not match
> exactly WMF's framework (heavily influenced by US narrow ideological
> spectrum).
>
> I'm not asking for the WMF or its affiliates to be against surrogacy, just
> the same way I don't ask for them to condemn apartheid policies against
> Muslims in Israel or the genocide in Gaza. I'm just asking the WMF and its
> affiliates to acknowledge that we are a global and diverse community united
> for a mission, and that entering into political advocacy beyond its mission
> is detrimental to this global perspective and diversity.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
I see.

Yes. Part of the LGBTQ collective considers surrogacy to be related to
their rights. I completely acknowledge that.

Best,

Mario


On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think you misunderstood my point there. ;)
>
> I was speaking to your comment that it was incorrectly labeled a LGBTQ
> issue because of adoption. I did not mean to suggest no one is against
> surrogacy or that they are not promoting adoption as an alternative. I was
> indicating that to my knowledge those organizations are not telling
> non-LGBTQ people that the laws are not of interest to them because they can
> adopt. Looking at their sites, they seem to want all people (LGBTQ and
> non-LGBTQ) to see it as related to their lives and rights.
>
> Again, I am not commenting here on if organizations should engage, just
> pointing out that regardless of someone’s stance on the issue or this
> action, the issue remains one of relevance to LGBTQ rights (and others) and
> WMIL labeling it as a LGBTQ rights issue was accurate. :)
>
> -greg
>
> _______________
> Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.
>
> > On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:56 AM, Gregory Varnum <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> As far as it being an alternative, that is usually true, but it is also
> >> true for non-LGBTQ families and I am not aware of viable political
> >> movements successfully suggesting non-LGBTQ families should not worry
> about
> >> surrogacy laws as adoptions are an alternative option for them.
> >>
> >>
> > Well, so you just met someone who suggests exactly that for non-LGBTQ
> > families and who actively participates in campaigns against legalization
> of
> > surrogacy in his country.
> >
> > This is actually a position held by many organizations, just to name a
> few:
> > the "National Network Against Wombs for Rent" and the  "We are not Pots"
> > campaign in Spain or the "Mexican Feminists Against Wombs for Rent" in
> > Mexico.
> >
> > These positions are also held by some feminist authors such as Kajsa Ekis
> > Ekman, Sylviane Agacinski or Silvia Federici.
> >
> > My point is not trying to convince you of my position. I do not think
> this
> > is the right forum to debate politics beyond WMF mission. My point is
> that
> > if the WMF or its affiliates take such positions beyond its mission, it
> > will be extremely damaging to the community, since this is just
> alienating
> > to all members of the community whose political positions do not match
> > exactly WMF's framework (heavily influenced by US narrow ideological
> > spectrum).
> >
> > I'm not asking for the WMF or its affiliates to be against surrogacy,
> just
> > the same way I don't ask for them to condemn apartheid policies against
> > Muslims in Israel or the genocide in Gaza. I'm just asking the WMF and
> its
> > affiliates to acknowledge that we are a global and diverse community
> united
> > for a mission, and that entering into political advocacy beyond its
> mission
> > is detrimental to this global perspective and diversity.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Mario
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Fæ
In Wikipedian fashion, let us stick to the published statement by
Wikimedia Israel without making unnecessary inferences. WMIL made a
positive statement to support equality, and we know that equality is
repeated in the Wikimedia Values and echoed in the developing future
strategy.[1][2]

The statement "Equality to every woman and man, regardless of gender,
sexual preference, religion, origin, or disability is a central value
in the international Wikimedia Movement" is not unreasonable. It is
hard to imagine that anyone disagreeing with this principle would be
able to personally support the current Wikimedia Values. It is also
correct to say that affiliates like the WMIL chapter add value to the
robustness and diversity of the global Wikimedia community by not
simply cloning the WMF values and strategy, but as part of their
reason to exist ensure that their programmes and strategies more
directly reflect the needs of their own members and community.

If anyone wants to work on this in detail, especially if they believe
that we can create and maintain an "inclusive culture"[1] and deliver
on "cultivate an environment where anyone can contribute safely, free
of harassment and prejudice"[2] while avoiding making positive
statements about equality, and choosing to stay silent about groups
including LGBT+ groups that suffer prejudice and discrimination by
their state because some may see that as unnecessarily political, then
I encourage them to talk this through by using logical and civil
discourse either during the current WMF driven strategy development
process or in consultation with local affiliate organizations.[3]
Though Wikimedia projects are not a free soapbox, our values guarantee
that critical voices are not silenced and rational on-topic discussion
is always welcome.

1. https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Values#We_welcome_and_cherish_our_differences
2. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Direction#Our_strategic_direction:_Service_and_Equity
3. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy

Cheers,
Fae
--
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Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 09:46, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I see.
>
> Yes. Part of the LGBTQ collective considers surrogacy to be related to
> their rights. I completely acknowledge that.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think you misunderstood my point there. ;)
> >
> > I was speaking to your comment that it was incorrectly labeled a LGBTQ
> > issue because of adoption. I did not mean to suggest no one is against
> > surrogacy or that they are not promoting adoption as an alternative. I was
> > indicating that to my knowledge those organizations are not telling
> > non-LGBTQ people that the laws are not of interest to them because they can
> > adopt. Looking at their sites, they seem to want all people (LGBTQ and
> > non-LGBTQ) to see it as related to their lives and rights.
> >
> > Again, I am not commenting here on if organizations should engage, just
> > pointing out that regardless of someone’s stance on the issue or this
> > action, the issue remains one of relevance to LGBTQ rights (and others) and
> > WMIL labeling it as a LGBTQ rights issue was accurate. :)
> >
> > -greg
> >
> > _______________
> > Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later.
> >
> > > On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:56 AM, Gregory Varnum <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> As far as it being an alternative, that is usually true, but it is also
> > >> true for non-LGBTQ families and I am not aware of viable political
> > >> movements successfully suggesting non-LGBTQ families should not worry
> > about
> > >> surrogacy laws as adoptions are an alternative option for them.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Well, so you just met someone who suggests exactly that for non-LGBTQ
> > > families and who actively participates in campaigns against legalization
> > of
> > > surrogacy in his country.
> > >
> > > This is actually a position held by many organizations, just to name a
> > few:
> > > the "National Network Against Wombs for Rent" and the  "We are not Pots"
> > > campaign in Spain or the "Mexican Feminists Against Wombs for Rent" in
> > > Mexico.
> > >
> > > These positions are also held by some feminist authors such as Kajsa Ekis
> > > Ekman, Sylviane Agacinski or Silvia Federici.
> > >
> > > My point is not trying to convince you of my position. I do not think
> > this
> > > is the right forum to debate politics beyond WMF mission. My point is
> > that
> > > if the WMF or its affiliates take such positions beyond its mission, it
> > > will be extremely damaging to the community, since this is just
> > alienating
> > > to all members of the community whose political positions do not match
> > > exactly WMF's framework (heavily influenced by US narrow ideological
> > > spectrum).
> > >
> > > I'm not asking for the WMF or its affiliates to be against surrogacy,
> > just
> > > the same way I don't ask for them to condemn apartheid policies against
> > > Muslims in Israel or the genocide in Gaza. I'm just asking the WMF and
> > its
> > > affiliates to acknowledge that we are a global and diverse community
> > united
> > > for a mission, and that entering into political advocacy beyond its
> > mission
> > > is detrimental to this global perspective and diversity.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Mario

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
Hi Fæ,

On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Wikipedian fashion, let us stick to the published statement by
> Wikimedia Israel without making unnecessary inferences.


That is what I do as a Wikipedia editor. But I don't find it reasonable
when it comes to WMF and affiliates activities. This would effectively mean
"stick to what WMF and affiliate says and don't complain".


> WMIL made a
> positive statement to support equality, and we know that equality is
> repeated in the Wikimedia Values and echoed in the developing future
> strategy
>

It is probable obvious from my previous emails, but I don't agree with this
framing of the issue. Taking surrogacy as simple issue of equality is
missing most of the debate about it.

My fellow colleages against surrogacy include a majority of women
(including L*BT) and a quite a few men too (including *GBT). I assure you
that for us, surrogacy is a form of exploitation of women, primarily women
of lower social classes and specially from less-developed countries.
Following the the trend of simplifying things to fit the Wikimedia Values,
I would say that, in order to promote equality, we should support all women
rights. And in doing so, in case of conflict, we should prioritize the
right to live, and live free of violence and exploitation. Hence, the WMF
should be clearly positioned against surrogacy regardless of who the
intended parents are. But no, I'm not proposing this, because of the
reasons in my previous emails.

And yes, just in case you were wondering, I strongly support the movement
for LGBT rights, but I don't think this is a simple case of LGBT _rights_
and it also involves women rights, which are largely ignored.

Best,

Mario
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Fæ
I understood the point you were making.

However if we agree on full equality, then please recognise that when
a state allows surrogacy for heterosexual couples but makes it
unlawful for same sex couples, this is anti-LGBT discrimination.

If you want to complain about surrogacy in Israel because you believe
all surrogacy exploits women, perhaps you would benefit from
contacting lobby groups in Israel who aim to make all surrogacy
illegal. There are plenty of statements on record from women who
happily volunteer to be surrogates and the law in Israel is well
defined, has been around for two decades, ensures that the surrogate
mother fully understands what they are doing, and the assessment board
always includes a professional social worker.[1]

However when you choose to derail a discussion that is no more and no
less than same sex couples being treated equally and being given equal
access for parental rights and medical support, then your actions will
be read as supporting the use of the law as a weapon for anti-LGBT
discrimination. Saying you support LGBT rights, or that you are LGBT+
yourself, does not change the way your words affect the rest of us.

Links
1. https://www.health.gov.il/English/Topics/fertility/Surrogacy/Pages/default.aspx

Thanks,
Fae
--
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On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 11:18, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Fæ,
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In Wikipedian fashion, let us stick to the published statement by
> > Wikimedia Israel without making unnecessary inferences.
>
>
> That is what I do as a Wikipedia editor. But I don't find it reasonable
> when it comes to WMF and affiliates activities. This would effectively mean
> "stick to what WMF and affiliate says and don't complain".
>
>
> > WMIL made a
> > positive statement to support equality, and we know that equality is
> > repeated in the Wikimedia Values and echoed in the developing future
> > strategy
> >
>
> It is probable obvious from my previous emails, but I don't agree with this
> framing of the issue. Taking surrogacy as simple issue of equality is
> missing most of the debate about it.
>
> My fellow colleages against surrogacy include a majority of women
> (including L*BT) and a quite a few men too (including *GBT). I assure you
> that for us, surrogacy is a form of exploitation of women, primarily women
> of lower social classes and specially from less-developed countries.
> Following the the trend of simplifying things to fit the Wikimedia Values,
> I would say that, in order to promote equality, we should support all women
> rights. And in doing so, in case of conflict, we should prioritize the
> right to live, and live free of violence and exploitation. Hence, the WMF
> should be clearly positioned against surrogacy regardless of who the
> intended parents are. But no, I'm not proposing this, because of the
> reasons in my previous emails.
>
> And yes, just in case you were wondering, I strongly support the movement
> for LGBT rights, but I don't think this is a simple case of LGBT _rights_
> and it also involves women rights, which are largely ignored.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> However when you choose to derail a discussion that is no more and no
> less than same sex couples being treated equally and being given equal
> access for parental rights and medical support, then your actions will
> be read as supporting the use of the law as a weapon for anti-LGBT
> discrimination. Saying you support LGBT rights, or that you are LGBT+
> yourself, does not change the way your words affect the rest of us.
>

Yes, it is not the first point that I read this "you look anti-LGBT". It
will probably be the case for some people. I could say that proponents of
these positions _look like_ rich white people, predominantly male, who are
classist and anti-women right. Is that characterization fair? I don't think
so, but it might look like it for some people.

I don't think this kind of dispute can be resolved within the Wikimedia
community. Doing so would push people on the "losing" position to just
leave the community and let it be as ideologically homogeneous as the WMF
and the winning side of the community wants it to be. I find increasingly
worrying that this seems the path we're following very happily.

Best,

Mario
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Fæ
On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 13:12, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > However when you choose to derail a discussion that is no more and no
> > less than same sex couples being treated equally and being given equal
> > access for parental rights and medical support, then your actions will
> > be read as supporting the use of the law as a weapon for anti-LGBT
> > discrimination. Saying you support LGBT rights, or that you are LGBT+
> > yourself, does not change the way your words affect the rest of us.
> >
>
> Yes, it is not the first point that I read this "you look anti-LGBT". It
> will probably be the case for some people. I could say that proponents of
> these positions _look like_ rich white people, predominantly male, who are
> classist and anti-women right. Is that characterization fair? I don't think
> so, but it might look like it for some people.

No it is not "fair", it is a way of dismissing equality for LGBT+
people by parodying and stereotyping all of us with views in this area
as rich white men. That is wrapping distasteful bigoted views in soft
words.

By saying these offensive things you have made this discussion a lot
easier, as your complaint is based on prejudice and assumptions rather
than facts, evidence or logic. Thanks for making that clear.

Again I recommend you take your lobbying to another place where others
can keep asking you for evidence, reliable sources and the format may
help you stick to rational discussion.

> I don't think this kind of dispute can be resolved within the Wikimedia
> community. Doing so would push people on the "losing" position to just
> leave the community and let it be as ideologically homogeneous as the WMF
> and the winning side of the community wants it to be. I find increasingly
> worrying that this seems the path we're following very happily.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 13:12, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> No it is not "fair", it is a way of dismissing equality for LGBT+
> people by parodying and stereotyping all of us with views in this area
> as rich white men. That is wrapping distasteful bigoted views in soft
> words.
>
>
Of course it is not fair. I agree, that's what I said. My point is that it
is as unfair as stereotyping anti-surrogacy movement as anti-LGBT.

Best,

Mario
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Fæ
Let's be clear.

The anti-surrogacy movement may not be anti-LGBT, I basically said
that in my previous email. If you want to lobby against surrogacy,
there is no problem with doing so in the right forum, and as all legal
surrogacies over the last 22 years in Israel have been *100% for
heterosexual couples* as enshrined in the wording of the 1996 act, you
should be lobbying against that existing act, which by definition has
involved not one single same sex couple, so the only legal surrogacy
cases you can possibly discuss and lobby against have nothing to do
with LGBT+ parental rights or access.

Your actions hijacking a statement by WMIL for LGBT+ equality, are
anti-LGBT+ as was your nasty stereotype of those that dare to speak
openly about LGBT+ equality as being right-wing supporting rich white
men.

This same stereotype has been used against LGBT+ rights discussion my
entire life, long before #fakenews was invented. It is untrue,
insidious, offensive, closes down civil discussion and deliberately
marginalising. I have no doubt that your purpose in being here is not
to help our open knowledge movement but to use any convenient soapbox
to be offensive and disruptive.

Fae

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 13:29, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 13:12, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > No it is not "fair", it is a way of dismissing equality for LGBT+
> > people by parodying and stereotyping all of us with views in this area
> > as rich white men. That is wrapping distasteful bigoted views in soft
> > words.
> >
> >
> Of course it is not fair. I agree, that's what I said. My point is that it
> is as unfair as stereotyping anti-surrogacy movement as anti-LGBT.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The anti-surrogacy movement may not be anti-LGBT, I basically said
> that in my previous email. If you want to lobby against surrogacy,
> there is no problem with doing so in the right forum, and as all legal
> surrogacies over the last 22 years in Israel have been *100% for
> heterosexual couples* as enshrined in the wording of the 1996 act, you
> should be lobbying against that existing act, which by definition has
> involved not one single same sex couple, so the only legal surrogacy
> cases you can possibly discuss and lobby against have nothing to do
> with LGBT+ parental rights or access.
>

As I said, I'm opposed to surrogacy regardless of gender of intended
parents. I'm against legalization of surrogacy, as well as any law
expanding it. This is consequential with the position of considering
surrogacy as exploitation. I understand you do not share this position, but
for those of us who do, what you call non-discrimination, is simply
expanding the population who can exercise a form of human exploitation.

I don't ask you to share my views on surrogacy, and I don't want WMF to
take sides with mine either. I think I have been clear about this from the
start. It was never my intention to speak up against surrogacy in any
Wikimedia venue. But I was not the one who officially brought up the topic,
so I think it is completely reasonable to debate political matters that are
brought up by WMF or its affiliates.


>
> Your actions hijacking a statement by WMIL for LGBT+ equality, are
> anti-LGBT+ as was your nasty stereotype of those that dare to speak
> openly about LGBT+ equality as being right-wing supporting rich white
> men.
>

> This same stereotype has been used against LGBT+ rights discussion my
> entire life, long before #fakenews was invented. It is untrue,
> insidious, offensive, closes down civil discussion and deliberately
> marginalising. I have no doubt that your purpose in being here is not
> to help our open knowledge movement but to use any convenient soapbox
> to be offensive and disruptive.
>


I'm really sorry I offended you with this example. I'm completely aware
that this stereotype is used that way, and that's why I compare it to an
equally insidious stereotype that is used against some people defending
women rights. In retrospective, it was not a good way to make my point,
since by no means I want to imply what you interpreted from my words.

Best,

Mario
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Mario Gómez
I don't want to engage in endless political flamewars, so this is my last
email on this list discussing the political substance of surrogacy, I
could, and I could do it with reliable sources, which were not asked in the
first place to justify WMIL statement.

But I don't meant to lobby here, because that's exactly what I'm opposing:
using the WMF and affiliates to lobby for political positions beyond its
mission.



On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Mario Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> The anti-surrogacy movement may not be anti-LGBT, I basically said
>> that in my previous email. If you want to lobby against surrogacy,
>> there is no problem with doing so in the right forum, and as all legal
>> surrogacies over the last 22 years in Israel have been *100% for
>> heterosexual couples* as enshrined in the wording of the 1996 act, you
>> should be lobbying against that existing act, which by definition has
>> involved not one single same sex couple, so the only legal surrogacy
>> cases you can possibly discuss and lobby against have nothing to do
>> with LGBT+ parental rights or access.
>>
>
> As I said, I'm opposed to surrogacy regardless of gender of intended
> parents. I'm against legalization of surrogacy, as well as any law
> expanding it. This is consequential with the position of considering
> surrogacy as exploitation. I understand you do not share this position, but
> for those of us who do, what you call non-discrimination, is simply
> expanding the population who can exercise a form of human exploitation.
>
> I don't ask you to share my views on surrogacy, and I don't want WMF to
> take sides with mine either. I think I have been clear about this from the
> start. It was never my intention to speak up against surrogacy in any
> Wikimedia venue. But I was not the one who officially brought up the topic,
> so I think it is completely reasonable to debate political matters that are
> brought up by WMF or its affiliates.
>
>
>>
>> Your actions hijacking a statement by WMIL for LGBT+ equality, are
>> anti-LGBT+ as was your nasty stereotype of those that dare to speak
>> openly about LGBT+ equality as being right-wing supporting rich white
>> men.
>>
>
>> This same stereotype has been used against LGBT+ rights discussion my
>> entire life, long before #fakenews was invented. It is untrue,
>> insidious, offensive, closes down civil discussion and deliberately
>> marginalising. I have no doubt that your purpose in being here is not
>> to help our open knowledge movement but to use any convenient soapbox
>> to be offensive and disruptive.
>>
>
>
> I'm really sorry I offended you with this example. I'm completely aware
> that this stereotype is used that way, and that's why I compare it to an
> equally insidious stereotype that is used against some people defending
> women rights. In retrospective, it was not a good way to make my point,
> since by no means I want to imply what you interpreted from my words.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Shlomi Fish
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:23 AM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Itzik,
>
>
> I do not oppose the LGBT movement, but please explain how an official support
> of that falls under the global Wikimedia project's mission, and does not
> dilute our policy of avoiding having a stance on issues that are unrelated to
> it?

I mean... yeah.

As an LGBT Wikimedian I entirely support changing this law, and I can
completely understand staff members wanting to take part in the
demonstrations, and the organisation wanting to support them in doing
that.

But I really don't see why Wikimedia Israel should formally involve
itself in a general social-policy issue that's nothing specifically to
do with our mission. We need to be careful not to try to be a
general-purpose progressive movement.

Regards,

Chris

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Andrea Zanni-2
Hi all,
I'll ask forgiveness in advance for starting a probable flame.

I support WMIL stance: equity is absolutely within our Wikimedia
values, and supporting LGBTQ rights is always a good thing.

But I cannot help but see the enormity of omission here: the Israeli
government just passed a law proclaming Israel a "Jewish"
nation-state¹, and it's bombing for the n-th time Gaza, where over 1
million people are sieged.

It saddens me a bit that WMIL is getting political, stepping "outside"
our wiki box for a good but still controversial topic, with a minor
impact, while major things are happening. Purely in terms of numbers
the scale of the latter are huge: the scale of the first much smaller.
I see a double standard (Jewish LGBQTs important; Arab-Israelis non
important) which is directly against the equity we we're talking about
in the first place.

Again, sorry,
but I couldn't shut up this time.

Aubrey

¹ https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/world/middleeast/israel-law-jews-arabic.html

On 7/21/18, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:23 AM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Itzik,
>>
>>
>> I do not oppose the LGBT movement, but please explain how an official
>> support
>> of that falls under the global Wikimedia project's mission, and does not
>> dilute our policy of avoiding having a stance on issues that are unrelated
>> to
>> it?
>
> I mean... yeah.
>
> As an LGBT Wikimedian I entirely support changing this law, and I can
> completely understand staff members wanting to take part in the
> demonstrations, and the organisation wanting to support them in doing
> that.
>
> But I really don't see why Wikimedia Israel should formally involve
> itself in a general social-policy issue that's nothing specifically to
> do with our mission. We need to be careful not to try to be a
> general-purpose progressive movement.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Israel joins the nationwide strike to protest the exclusion of gay couples the right to become parents

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
+1

On 22 July 2018 at 10:02, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'll ask forgiveness in advance for starting a probable flame.
>
> I support WMIL stance: equity is absolutely within our Wikimedia
> values, and supporting LGBTQ rights is always a good thing.
>
> But I cannot help but see the enormity of omission here: the Israeli
> government just passed a law proclaming Israel a "Jewish"
> nation-state¹, and it's bombing for the n-th time Gaza, where over 1
> million people are sieged.
>
> It saddens me a bit that WMIL is getting political, stepping "outside"
> our wiki box for a good but still controversial topic, with a minor
> impact, while major things are happening. Purely in terms of numbers
> the scale of the latter are huge: the scale of the first much smaller.
> I see a double standard (Jewish LGBQTs important; Arab-Israelis non
> important) which is directly against the equity we we're talking about
> in the first place.
>
> Again, sorry,
> but I couldn't shut up this time.
>
> Aubrey
>
> ¹ https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/world/middleeast/israel-
> law-jews-arabic.html
>
> On 7/21/18, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:23 AM Shlomi Fish <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Itzik,
> >>
> >>
> >> I do not oppose the LGBT movement, but please explain how an official
> >> support
> >> of that falls under the global Wikimedia project's mission, and does not
> >> dilute our policy of avoiding having a stance on issues that are
> unrelated
> >> to
> >> it?
> >
> > I mean... yeah.
> >
> > As an LGBT Wikimedian I entirely support changing this law, and I can
> > completely understand staff members wanting to take part in the
> > demonstrations, and the organisation wanting to support them in doing
> > that.
> >
> > But I really don't see why Wikimedia Israel should formally involve
> > itself in a general social-policy issue that's nothing specifically to
> > do with our mission. We need to be careful not to try to be a
> > general-purpose progressive movement.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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