[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Leinonen Teemu
Hi,

I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora* Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a microblogging service rather than a social network service.

Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network service?

In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we consider discussions and information shared on social network services to be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.

We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social would be:

(1) Status updates
(2) Comments
(3) Likes
(4)Groups
maybe:
(5) Events

I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.

        - Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Peter Southwood
Why would we want to? How would it further the aims of the movement? How much would it cost? Who would run it?
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Leinonen Teemu
Sent: 09 April 2018 09:46
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Hi,

I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora* Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a microblogging service rather than a social network service.

Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network service?

In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we consider discussions and information shared on social network services to be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.

We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social would be:

(1) Status updates
(2) Comments
(3) Likes
(4)Groups
maybe:
(5) Events

I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.

        - Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Leinonen Teemu
On 9 Apr 2018, at 11.28, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Why would we want to?

Because we want to "become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”.

How would it further the aims of the movement?

Knowledge is dynamic. Today social media services are the most influential knowledge and belief creation services online. When Wikipedia was started,  websites use to hold this position. With Wikimedia social media service, that would rely on the four last of the five pillars[1], I think we could really further the aims of the movement.

How much would it cost?

Hard to say.

Who would run it?

Us.

- Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Leinonen Teemu
Sent: 09 April 2018 09:46
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Hi,

I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora* Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a microblogging service rather than a social network service.

Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network service?

In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we consider discussions and information shared on social network services to be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.

We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social would be:

(1) Status updates
(2) Comments
(3) Likes
(4)Groups
maybe:
(5) Events

I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.

- Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Erik Moeller-3
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 12:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not abusing
> personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting anonymity,
> free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora* Project[1] is not
> moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a microblogging service
> rather than a social network service.

Wikimedia projects are social networks, but they are purpose-driven
social networks [1] where participants are more strongly connected
through their overlapping interests than through pre-existing social
connections. To the extent that Wikimedia should develop better social
networking tools, they should IMO be along the lines of the ideas
being prototyped by WikiProject X [2][3]. Improving other social tools
routinely used in connection with Wikimedia work, such as IRC and
mailing lists, likely would also have near term benefit.

I don't think that you can make a compelling argument that building
general purpose social networking software (as in, share cat+baby
pictures with friends) is in scope of Wikimedia's mission. But
Wikimedia organizations do use general purpose social networks like
Twitter and Facebook for outreach. I do think, given the Wikimedia's
strong orientation towards open source and open standards,
that_participating_ in open, decentralized communities like Mastodon
would be an appropriate way to extend that presence on existing
platforms. I personally think Diaspora can be safely ignored at this
point, and am hoping a better open FB alternative will emerge.

Erik

[1] https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/The_purpose-driven_social_network:_Supporting_WikiProjects_with_technology
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_X
[3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CollaborationKit

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
How would this proposed social media service avoid the problems of existing social media in that they are generally not 'knowledge dissemination services', but spreaders of opinion, disinformation, and often complete rubbish, with a random sprinkling of knowledge scattered among the garbage?

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Leinonen Teemu
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 9:25 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

On 9 Apr 2018, at 11.28, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Why would we want to?

Because we want to "become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”.

How would it further the aims of the movement?

Knowledge is dynamic. Today social media services are the most influential knowledge and belief creation services online. When Wikipedia was started,  websites use to hold this position. With Wikimedia social media service, that would rely on the four last of the five pillars[1], I think we could really further the aims of the movement.

How much would it cost?

Hard to say.

Who would run it?

Us.

- Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Leinonen Teemu
Sent: 09 April 2018 09:46
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Hi,

I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora* Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a microblogging service rather than a social network service.

Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network service?

In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we consider discussions and information shared on social network services to be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.

We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social would be:

(1) Status updates
(2) Comments
(3) Likes
(4)Groups
maybe:
(5) Events

I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.

- Teemu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Leinonen Teemu
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-3
> On 10 Apr 2018, at 7.02, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Wikimedia projects are social networks, but they are purpose-driven
> social networks [1] where participants are more strongly connected
> through their overlapping interests than through pre-existing social
> connections.

I agree. I however, see that if the movement is interested in to be _the_ ecosystem of free knowledge, a social media where the overlapping interest is actually the free knowledge itself and not some area of knowledge is not a bad idea.

> To the extent that Wikimedia should develop better social
> networking tools, they should IMO be along the lines of the ideas
> being prototyped by WikiProject X [2][3]. Improving other social tools
> routinely used in connection with Wikimedia work, such as IRC and
> mailing lists, likely would also have near term benefit.

Thanks for the links. Better social tools to the Wikipedia / for the movement are definitely needed.

I guess I am not the only one who is worried that we may loose the interest of the general public on the movement, because we are not able to provide various kind of opportunities for people to contribute to the free knowledge movement (except to donate).

I see that Wikipedia is just one — although extremely important — offering of the movement aiming to advance the idea of free knowledge.

> I don't think that you can make a compelling argument that building
> general purpose social networking software (as in, share cat+baby
> pictures with friends) is in scope of Wikimedia's mission.

Yes. The mode of operation should be aligned with the Wikipedia’s mission.

But it we want to address the challenge of “free knowledge” globally, a social media, that is not run by financial interest, but by the interest of the public, is badly needed. I think Wikimedia movement could play a role in here, too.

        - Teemu
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Michael Snow-5
On 4/9/2018 11:14 PM, Leinonen Teemu wrote:
>> On 10 Apr 2018, at 7.02, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Wikimedia projects are social networks, but they are purpose-driven
>> social networks [1] where participants are more strongly connected
>> through their overlapping interests than through pre-existing social
>> connections.
> I agree. I however, see that if the movement is interested in to be _the_ ecosystem of free knowledge, a social media where the overlapping interest is actually the free knowledge itself and not some area of knowledge is not a bad idea.
I am wary of the idea that we would have interest in being _the_
ecosystem of free knowledge, certainly if as this implies, that's
ecosystem of free knowledge in the singular. I believe we want to be a
part of such an ecosystem, but hopefully a very diverse ecosystem, as is
necessary to its success. We should be cautious not to monopolize it,
intentionally or inadvertently. The undesirable byproducts of
corporate-driven social media illustrate many of the perils all too well.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

David Cuenca Tudela
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
Unlike Erik, I don't think an open alternative to Facebook will emerge, the
inertia at this point is too big and you would need a huge critical mass of
people (and organizations) to make it useful. Hard to attain. The only
contender on the long run to FB could be reddit, because they seem to be
moving in that direction with the new profiles and so on. They have almost
all the features that make a (general purpose) social network attractive,
the amount of users, and the content.

Regarding the question if the WMF should build a social network for the
masses, I don't think it should. A general purpose social network is mainly
used for sharing personal events, viral stories, cat pictures, and so on.
It does not offer long-term cultural value. A more interesting approach
could be a niche social network, like a *social **learning network*. It is
related to open knowledge, it offers some cultural value and it doesn't
attract the same kind of idiocy that general networks attract.
A social learning network could be oriented to life-long self-learning
where users would share stories about what are they discovering each day,
groups, creation of materials, etc. It could be said that users are already
discovering new knowledge in our sites, but they have to go to other
websites to talk about it... (for instance /r/wikipedia)

Another possible kind of network, could be one geared towards *governance
and public oversight*. This is perhaps more interesting for governments,
institutions and organizations, but still in the realm of the Wikimedia
movement, because we also need some kind of social governance to build
understanding and consensus both ways bottom-up, and top-down, and
inter-organization. Not that we don't do it already, but perhaps with
specific tools it would be easier.


Regards,
Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Gnangarra
what i see is that developing a full FB type network is outside the current
scope and capacity of the movement and will probably remain there.  There
is always room for further development of tools for user and talk pages the
will enhance collaborative activities.

I also think that at some stage in the process of collating and sharing the
sum of all knowledge we need to consider a project for the collection of
the intangible knowledge, from the oral traditional knowledge of Indigenous
communities to some limited firsthand experiences.  Its these that bring
life and understanding to the information adding a new complimentary
dimension to the very masculine rigid structures we currently focus on.

On 10 April 2018 at 17:03, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unlike Erik, I don't think an open alternative to Facebook will emerge, the
> inertia at this point is too big and you would need a huge critical mass of
> people (and organizations) to make it useful. Hard to attain. The only
> contender on the long run to FB could be reddit, because they seem to be
> moving in that direction with the new profiles and so on. They have almost
> all the features that make a (general purpose) social network attractive,
> the amount of users, and the content.
>
> Regarding the question if the WMF should build a social network for the
> masses, I don't think it should. A general purpose social network is mainly
> used for sharing personal events, viral stories, cat pictures, and so on.
> It does not offer long-term cultural value. A more interesting approach
> could be a niche social network, like a *social **learning network*. It is
> related to open knowledge, it offers some cultural value and it doesn't
> attract the same kind of idiocy that general networks attract.
> A social learning network could be oriented to life-long self-learning
> where users would share stories about what are they discovering each day,
> groups, creation of materials, etc. It could be said that users are already
> discovering new knowledge in our sites, but they have to go to other
> websites to talk about it... (for instance /r/wikipedia)
>
> Another possible kind of network, could be one geared towards *governance
> and public oversight*. This is perhaps more interesting for governments,
> institutions and organizations, but still in the realm of the Wikimedia
> movement, because we also need some kind of social governance to build
> understanding and consensus both ways bottom-up, and top-down, and
> inter-organization. Not that we don't do it already, but perhaps with
> specific tools it would be easier.
>
>
> Regards,
> Micru
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>



--
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Yury Bulka
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
If we want to improve the situation, I think one of the simplest things
to do would be to increase the presence of WMF and Wikipedia on the
Federation and Fediverse networks-of-networks. For a start, we could
just be cross-posting from the WMF blog officially.

And I don't think we need a non-Zuckerberg clone of Facebook, owned by WMF
of whoever.

I really support the idea of decentralization, open source code and
gradual improvement. If the existing open-source decentralized solutions
don't seem good enough, the best thing to do is to work on improving
them instead of reinventing the wheel.

Best,
User:Yury Bulka
https://diasp.eu/u/yurb

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Edward Saperia
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
My kneejerk response was to reject this idea, but it's at least worth
considering;

Working on wikimedia feels productive because permanent artefacts are
produced - articles etc - but these are a direct product of the community
around them. Better community tools will produce better outputs and happier
contributors. You could even bind it tightly to the editing process, e.g.
each article could have a canonical hashtag, and tagged activity could be
viewed from a page similar to a talk page.

Also, reading articles is just one way of consuming knowledge; asking
questions and receiving answers is another common one. A community of
answerers that use wikimedia as their knowledge base could be a powerful
way to provide knowledge-as-a-service, and potentially a very healthy
counterpart to the existing editor community in terms of reader insights.

Publish/subscribe networks are quite malleable things - look at Quora as a
social network with very different community norms - no reason why one
couldn't be mission driven.

At the very least, a mastodon instance that could be linked to your
wikimedia account might be a positive and realistic step towards this.

*Edward Saperia*
Dean of Newspeak House <http://www.nwspk.com>
newsletter <http://www.tinyletter.com/edsaperia> • facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/edsaperia> • twitter
<http://www.twitter.com/edsaperia> • 07796955572
133-135 Bethnal Green Road, E2 7DG

On 9 April 2018 at 20:25, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9 Apr 2018, at 11.28, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]<
> mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Why would we want to?
>
> Because we want to "become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge”.
>
> How would it further the aims of the movement?
>
> Knowledge is dynamic. Today social media services are the most influential
> knowledge and belief creation services online. When Wikipedia was started,
> websites use to hold this position. With Wikimedia social media service,
> that would rely on the four last of the five pillars[1], I think we could
> really further the aims of the movement.
>
> How much would it cost?
>
> Hard to say.
>
> Who would run it?
>
> Us.
>
> - Teemu
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Leinonen Teemu
> Sent: 09 April 2018 09:46
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking
> service ?
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not
> abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting
> anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora*
> Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a
> microblogging service rather than a social network service.
>
> Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network
> service?
>
> In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become
> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
> consider discussions and information shared on social network services to
> be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.
>
> We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of
> being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social
> would be:
>
> (1) Status updates
> (2) Comments
> (3) Likes
> (4)Groups
> maybe:
> (5) Events
>
> I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services
> (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.
>
> - Teemu
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Leinonen Teemu
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-5
> On 10 Apr 2018, at 9.58, Michael Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 4/9/2018 11:14 PM, Leinonen Teemu wrote:
>>> On 10 Apr 2018, at 7.02, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Wikimedia projects are social networks, but they are purpose-driven
>>> social networks [1] where participants are more strongly connected
>>> through their overlapping interests than through pre-existing social
>>> connections.
>> I agree. I however, see that if the movement is interested in to be _the_ ecosystem of free knowledge, a social media where the overlapping interest is actually the free knowledge itself and not some area of knowledge is not a bad idea.
> I am wary of the idea that we would have interest in being _the_ ecosystem of free knowledge, certainly if as this implies, that's ecosystem of free knowledge in the singular. I believe we want to be a part of such an ecosystem, but hopefully a very diverse ecosystem, as is necessary to its success.

Hear hear. I was also surprised about the expression "the ecosystem" in the WMF strategic direction. On the other hand, I am worried that there are not that many species in the “free knowledge” ecosystem, in addition to the projects, products and chapters of the Wikimedia. So, as relatively large (and powerful) movement (we cold do better, too), we could take a leadership in here and cherish these other species of the ecosystem. For this purpose a free knowledge social media service could be a smart move. :-)


        - Teemu
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by Leinonen Teemu
(These are personal opinions based on my own personal interest in free and
volunteer-driven social networks, not an opinion as a WMF member.)

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not
> abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting
> anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora*
> Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a
> microblogging service rather than a social network service.
>

Can it be that the difference between "microblogging service" and "social
network" might be too subtle and subjective to be noticed by the majority
of their users? And for the problem you are presenting here?


Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network
> service?
>

Depends on what you mean by "build". If you mean create the software for a
new social network service, I don't think it makes sense. Providing support
and development of multilingual wiki projects
<https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects> to collect and develop
educational content to empower and engage people around the world is
already a daunting task in terms of software development, and there is so
much to do.

If you mean to run the software developed by someone else, sure, why not
experimenting. Thanks to free software licenses anyone can try, and thanks
to Wikimedia trademarks licenses I am sure a decent solution could be found
by whoever wants to run this experiment.


In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become
> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
> consider discussions and information shared on social network services to
> be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.
>

With some caveats and observations, I agree on the principle, just not on
the implication that this means we need to create a free social network for
us from scratch, starting with a first line of code. If we consider social
networks useful, and free social networks the right and consistent thing to
use in an ecosystem of free knowledge, then the first step can be as simple
as opening a Mastodon instance. Dozens (hundreds) of volunteers (including
amateur sysadmins) are doing just that without much discussion, just
scratching their own itch, or for fun, or to learn, or to experiment...


We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of
> being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social
> would be:
>
> (1) Status updates
> (2) Comments
> (3) Likes
>

This is provided by Mastodon, GNUSocial, etc today. They look like minimum
features for a social network indeed.


> (4)Groups
>

Mmm can you specify your use cases here? There is a chance, that the need
for "groups" actually belongs to different use cases, and we don't need one
"social network" tool to resolve everything.

One use case could be instant communication. We have seen Wikimedia groups
in Telegram flourishing around events and perhaps more. Again, someone
scratched their itches, they just did it, others followed.

Another use case could be more structured and specialized communication,
which puts us closer to mailing lists, forums, and our very own Talk pages.
For what is worth, some of us are experimenting around this use case with
Discourse. Again, scratching own itches and experimenting. More at
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T180853


> maybe:
> (5) Events
>

Well, this is quite a beast on its own, and I believe not a simple one. A
few days ago I unassigned https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T1035 to myself
because I could not find enough time & focus to push this problem in some
productive direction.



> I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services
> (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.
>

I agree that there is potential in this area, but I would look more at
using and supporting tools developed by others on their own mission, and
then think of single-sign-ons and APIs to bridge.



>
>         - Teemu
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
>

--
Quim Gil
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by David Cuenca Tudela
Le 10/04/2018 à 11:03, David Cuenca Tudela a écrit :
> Regarding the question if the WMF should build a social network for the
> masses, I don't think it should. A general purpose social network is mainly
> used for sharing personal events, viral stories, cat pictures, and so on.
> It does not offer long-term cultural value.
While I think I understand your concern, however it seems to me that it
doesn't take into account the value of this kind of "silly data", in
serious research in fields like anthropology, sociology or linguistic,
just to name a few.

If Wikimedia want to become an essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
of free knowledge, and let anyone who shares our vision able to join us,
then we certainly must do something about the social networking topic.
Integrating matching features in a dedicated platform would allow to
promote path to other kind of contributions.

If the goal of this announced infrastructure is to enable to collect and
use different forms of free, trusted knowledge, then starting with
collecting data, and encouraging curation through gamification of
services might be a path. All data which are not published under a free
license right from the start will be harder to make relicensed under a
free license latter, and all people which are feeding input into
non-free platforms are basically sending them to oblivion as far as free
knowledge is concerned, which won't help the "sum of all knowledge"
goal. That is, rather than losing completely potential contributors
because their habits do include silly inputs, especially when they are
new comers, you can build them a landing space for silly stuffs and
design paths toward more virtuous/prestigious contributions.

Cheers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
Hello,

Following a discussion on a Wikisource Telegram group, I searched a bit
about mastodon and Wikimedia, and I found back this current thread[1] as
well as the following

- https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T198363
   - pointing to
https://mastodon.technology/@danielhglus/100278498498332671
     - evoking a conversation on WP:VPIL, that is actually (most likely)
refering to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_25#Mastodon_instance?
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_media
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_networking

I was initially looking for something able to do at least the same as
Telegram groups, with at least the same cross-devices ease of use. With
what I played so far on Mastodon, I don't think it would fulfill the
same feature set as Telegram, but I was already suggested a few other
solution to further this inquiry:

- Signal https://signal.org/ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29>
- Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_(software)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28software%29>
- Wire https://wire.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_(software)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_%28software%29>
- Tox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_%28protocol%29
- Matrix http://matrix.org/ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_%28communication_protocol%29>

My experience with the two former don't make feel like they could be
used for the same purpose as Telegram. I still have to check the three
later, but please be bold with any feedback and complementary ideas you
might have on this topic.

Although Mastodon doesn't seem to be what I was looking for at start, I
do think it would be great to launch a Wikimedia instance and completely
in phase with the aim of becoming an essential infrastructure of the
ecosystem of free knowledge. So let me know if I can help in any way on
this regard. :)

Cheers.


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-April/089977.html


Le 11/04/2018 à 11:17, Quim Gil a écrit :

> (These are personal opinions based on my own personal interest in free and
> volunteer-driven social networks, not an opinion as a WMF member.)
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not
>> abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting
>> anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora*
>> Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a
>> microblogging service rather than a social network service.
>>
> Can it be that the difference between "microblogging service" and "social
> network" might be too subtle and subjective to be noticed by the majority
> of their users? And for the problem you are presenting here?
>
>
> Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network
>> service?
>>
> Depends on what you mean by "build". If you mean create the software for a
> new social network service, I don't think it makes sense. Providing support
> and development of multilingual wiki projects
> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects> to collect and develop
> educational content to empower and engage people around the world is
> already a daunting task in terms of software development, and there is so
> much to do.
>
> If you mean to run the software developed by someone else, sure, why not
> experimenting. Thanks to free software licenses anyone can try, and thanks
> to Wikimedia trademarks licenses I am sure a decent solution could be found
> by whoever wants to run this experiment.
>
>
> In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become
>> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
>> consider discussions and information shared on social network services to
>> be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.
>>
> With some caveats and observations, I agree on the principle, just not on
> the implication that this means we need to create a free social network for
> us from scratch, starting with a first line of code. If we consider social
> networks useful, and free social networks the right and consistent thing to
> use in an ecosystem of free knowledge, then the first step can be as simple
> as opening a Mastodon instance. Dozens (hundreds) of volunteers (including
> amateur sysadmins) are doing just that without much discussion, just
> scratching their own itch, or for fun, or to learn, or to experiment...
>
>
> We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of
>> being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social
>> would be:
>>
>> (1) Status updates
>> (2) Comments
>> (3) Likes
>>
> This is provided by Mastodon, GNUSocial, etc today. They look like minimum
> features for a social network indeed.
>
>
>> (4)Groups
>>
> Mmm can you specify your use cases here? There is a chance, that the need
> for "groups" actually belongs to different use cases, and we don't need one
> "social network" tool to resolve everything.
>
> One use case could be instant communication. We have seen Wikimedia groups
> in Telegram flourishing around events and perhaps more. Again, someone
> scratched their itches, they just did it, others followed.
>
> Another use case could be more structured and specialized communication,
> which puts us closer to mailing lists, forums, and our very own Talk pages.
> For what is worth, some of us are experimenting around this use case with
> Discourse. Again, scratching own itches and experimenting. More at
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T180853
>
>
>> maybe:
>> (5) Events
>>
> Well, this is quite a beast on its own, and I believe not a simple one. A
> few days ago I unassigned https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T1035 to myself
> because I could not find enough time & focus to push this problem in some
> productive direction.
>
>
>
>> I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services
>> (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.
>>
> I agree that there is potential in this area, but I would look more at
> using and supporting tools developed by others on their own mission, and
> then think of single-sign-ons and APIs to bridge.
>
>
>
>>          - Teemu
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
>> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
>>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Gergő Tisza
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:40 AM mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> - Matrix http://matrix.org/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_%28communication_protocol%29>
>
> My experience with the two former don't make feel like they could be
> used for the same purpose as Telegram. I still have to check the three
> later, but please be bold with any feedback and complementary ideas you
> might have on this topic.
>

You might be interested in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T186061
although it's not really related to the topic of this thread as Matrix is a
chat network, not a social network (but then so is Telegram). The
project could definitely use more testers.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

masti-2
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
You forgot Discord
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discord_(software)

that used to be a voice app but has a very nice text feauters also

masti

On 09.08.2018 06:40, mathieu lovato stumpf guntz wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Following a discussion on a Wikisource Telegram group, I searched a
> bit about mastodon and Wikimedia, and I found back this current
> thread[1] as well as the following
>
> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T198363
>   - pointing to
> https://mastodon.technology/@danielhglus/100278498498332671
>     - evoking a conversation on WP:VPIL, that is actually (most
> likely) refering to
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_25#Mastodon_instance?
> - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_media
> - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_networking
>
> I was initially looking for something able to do at least the same as
> Telegram groups, with at least the same cross-devices ease of use.
> With what I played so far on Mastodon, I don't think it would fulfill
> the same feature set as Telegram, but I was already suggested a few
> other solution to further this inquiry:
>
> - Signal https://signal.org/ 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29>
> - Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_(software)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28software%29>
> - Wire https://wire.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_(software)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_%28software%29>
> - Tox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_%28protocol%29
> - Matrix http://matrix.org/ 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_%28communication_protocol%29>
>
> My experience with the two former don't make feel like they could be
> used for the same purpose as Telegram. I still have to check the three
> later, but please be bold with any feedback and complementary ideas
> you might have on this topic.
>
> Although Mastodon doesn't seem to be what I was looking for at start,
> I do think it would be great to launch a Wikimedia instance and
> completely in phase with the aim of becoming an essential
> infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge. So let me know if I
> can help in any way on this regard. :)
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> [1]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-April/089977.html
>
>
> Le 11/04/2018 à 11:17, Quim Gil a écrit :
>> (These are personal opinions based on my own personal interest in
>> free and
>> volunteer-driven social networks, not an opinion as a WMF member.)
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have been looking for social networking service that would be
>>> fair: not
>>> abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy,
>>> accepting
>>> anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The
>>> Diaspora*
>>> Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is
>>> more a
>>> microblogging service rather than a social network service.
>>>
>> Can it be that the difference between "microblogging service" and
>> "social
>> network" might be too subtle and subjective to be noticed by the
>> majority
>> of their users? And for the problem you are presenting here?
>>
>>
>> Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social
>> network
>>> service?
>>>
>> Depends on what you mean by "build". If you mean create the software
>> for a
>> new social network service, I don't think it makes sense. Providing
>> support
>> and development of multilingual wiki projects
>> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects> to collect and
>> develop
>> educational content to empower and engage people around the world is
>> already a daunting task in terms of software development, and there
>> is so
>> much to do.
>>
>> If you mean to run the software developed by someone else, sure, why not
>> experimenting. Thanks to free software licenses anyone can try, and
>> thanks
>> to Wikimedia trademarks licenses I am sure a decent solution could be
>> found
>> by whoever wants to run this experiment.
>>
>>
>> In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will
>> become
>>> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
>>> consider discussions and information shared on social network
>>> services to
>>> be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.
>>>
>> With some caveats and observations, I agree on the principle, just
>> not on
>> the implication that this means we need to create a free social
>> network for
>> us from scratch, starting with a first line of code. If we consider
>> social
>> networks useful, and free social networks the right and consistent
>> thing to
>> use in an ecosystem of free knowledge, then the first step can be as
>> simple
>> as opening a Mastodon instance. Dozens (hundreds) of volunteers
>> (including
>> amateur sysadmins) are doing just that without much discussion, just
>> scratching their own itch, or for fun, or to learn, or to experiment...
>>
>>
>> We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of
>>> being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia
>>> Social
>>> would be:
>>>
>>> (1) Status updates
>>> (2) Comments
>>> (3) Likes
>>>
>> This is provided by Mastodon, GNUSocial, etc today. They look like
>> minimum
>> features for a social network indeed.
>>
>>
>>> (4)Groups
>>>
>> Mmm can you specify your use cases here? There is a chance, that the
>> need
>> for "groups" actually belongs to different use cases, and we don't
>> need one
>> "social network" tool to resolve everything.
>>
>> One use case could be instant communication. We have seen Wikimedia
>> groups
>> in Telegram flourishing around events and perhaps more. Again, someone
>> scratched their itches, they just did it, others followed.
>>
>> Another use case could be more structured and specialized communication,
>> which puts us closer to mailing lists, forums, and our very own Talk
>> pages.
>> For what is worth, some of us are experimenting around this use case
>> with
>> Discourse. Again, scratching own itches and experimenting. More at
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T180853
>>
>>
>>> maybe:
>>> (5) Events
>>>
>> Well, this is quite a beast on its own, and I believe not a simple
>> one. A
>> few days ago I unassigned https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T1035 to
>> myself
>> because I could not find enough time & focus to push this problem in
>> some
>> productive direction.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services
>>> (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.
>>>
>> I agree that there is potential in this area, but I would look more at
>> using and supporting tools developed by others on their own mission, and
>> then think of single-sign-ons and APIs to bridge.
>>
>>
>>
>>>          - Teemu
>>>
>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
>>> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
>>>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
Mathieu, thank you for your research and for connecting so many dots.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:40 AM mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Although Mastodon doesn't seem to be what I was looking for at start, I do
> think it would be great to launch a Wikimedia instance and completely in
> phase with the aim of becoming an essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge. So let me know if I can help in any way on this regard.
> :)
>
In my professional role, I think it is worth considering the idea of
approaching Wikimedia to the Fediverse as part of

> Knowledge as a service: To serve our users, we will become a platform
that serves open knowledge to the world across interfaces and communities.
> We will build tools for allies and partners to organize and exchange free
knowledge beyond Wikimedia.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Direction

In fact, I have started some very casual conversations about these ideas
(equivalent to chats by the coffee machine, except that I'm remote and I
don't drink coffee), partially motivated by this thread.

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T198363 is a good umbrella task. If
someone wants to develop the idea of creating a Wikimedia instance in the
Fediverse (official or not), then that would deserve its own discussion.
Where to start this discussion? IdeaLab? Maybe it doesn't matter as long as
we have one place well advertised.

There are at least three aspects to consider:

* Technical: Creating i.e. a Mastodon instance somewhere is technically
simple, running that instance in Wikimedia production servers is another
story. While there is no need to start with a service in production, it is
useful to consider the scenario early on.

* Legal: Aiming for an official Wikimedia instance has implications of
trademarks, legal requirements, and so on. While there is no need to start
with an official instance, it is useful to consider the scenario early on.

* Social: While creating an instance would be simple, having a critical
mass of Wikimedians aware of it and using it regularly is not. There is no
lack of brilliant ideas that failed because the people didn't follow. And
here you would be fighting against resistance to change e.g. from those
believing that Wikimedians should focus on wikis only, from Wikimedians
well invested in corporate social networks (Facebook, Twitter, etc) and of
course with everyone being "too busy to join another channel". Whoever
drives this initiative must be ready to work hard explaining, promoting,
supporting...

Bottom line: this would be an initiative relatively simple to start, that
has a clear risk of complications coming if it succeeds. Considering that
the likely scenario for any new experiment is that it will close in less
than a year, I think those complications caused by success is a problem the
promoters of this initiative would want to have.

PS: In my personal time I am a Fediverse enthusiast and a Mastodon instance
admin, and for this reason I am being cautious about bias / being too
passionate.  :)

>
> Cheers.
>
>
> [1]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-April/089977.html
>
> Le 11/04/2018 à 11:17, Quim Gil a écrit :
>
> (These are personal opinions based on my own personal interest in free and
> volunteer-driven social networks, not an opinion as a WMF member.)
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not
> abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting
> anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora*
> Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a
> microblogging service rather than a social network service.
>
>
> Can it be that the difference between "microblogging service" and "social
> network" might be too subtle and subjective to be noticed by the majority
> of their users? And for the problem you are presenting here?
>
>
> Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network
>
> service?
>
>
> Depends on what you mean by "build". If you mean create the software for a
> new social network service, I don't think it makes sense. Providing support
> and development of multilingual wiki projects<https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects> to collect and develop
> educational content to empower and engage people around the world is
> already a daunting task in terms of software development, and there is so
> much to do.
>
> If you mean to run the software developed by someone else, sure, why not
> experimenting. Thanks to free software licenses anyone can try, and thanks
> to Wikimedia trademarks licenses I am sure a decent solution could be found
> by whoever wants to run this experiment.
>
>
> In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become
>
> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
> consider discussions and information shared on social network services to
> be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.
>
>
> With some caveats and observations, I agree on the principle, just not on
> the implication that this means we need to create a free social network for
> us from scratch, starting with a first line of code. If we consider social
> networks useful, and free social networks the right and consistent thing to
> use in an ecosystem of free knowledge, then the first step can be as simple
> as opening a Mastodon instance. Dozens (hundreds) of volunteers (including
> amateur sysadmins) are doing just that without much discussion, just
> scratching their own itch, or for fun, or to learn, or to experiment...
>
>
> We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of
>
> being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social
> would be:
>
> (1) Status updates
> (2) Comments
> (3) Likes
>
>
> This is provided by Mastodon, GNUSocial, etc today. They look like minimum
> features for a social network indeed.
>
>
>
> (4)Groups
>
>
> Mmm can you specify your use cases here? There is a chance, that the need
> for "groups" actually belongs to different use cases, and we don't need one
> "social network" tool to resolve everything.
>
> One use case could be instant communication. We have seen Wikimedia groups
> in Telegram flourishing around events and perhaps more. Again, someone
> scratched their itches, they just did it, others followed.
>
> Another use case could be more structured and specialized communication,
> which puts us closer to mailing lists, forums, and our very own Talk pages.
> For what is worth, some of us are experimenting around this use case with
> Discourse. Again, scratching own itches and experimenting. More athttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T180853
>
>  maybe:
> (5) Events
>
>
> Well, this is quite a beast on its own, and I believe not a simple one. A
> few days ago I unassigned https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T1035 to myself
> because I could not find enough time & focus to push this problem in some
> productive direction.
>
>
>
>
> I am pretty sure that by integrating this to other Wikimedia services
> (Commons etc.) we could achieve something awesome.
>
>
> I agree that there is potential in this area, but I would look more at
> using and supporting tools developed by others on their own mission, and
> then think of single-sign-ons and APIs to bridge.
>
>
>
>
>         - Teemu
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(social_network)
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
>
>
>

--
Quim Gil
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Sylvain Boissel
Hello,

2018-08-10 11:19 GMT+02:00 Quim Gil <[hidden email]>:

> Mathieu, thank you for your research and for connecting so many dots.
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:40 AM mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Although Mastodon doesn't seem to be what I was looking for at start, I
> do
> > think it would be great to launch a Wikimedia instance and completely in
> > phase with the aim of becoming an essential infrastructure of the
> ecosystem
> > of free knowledge. So let me know if I can help in any way on this
> regard.
> > :)
> >
> In my professional role, I think it is worth considering the idea of
> approaching Wikimedia to the Fediverse as part of
>
> > Knowledge as a service: To serve our users, we will become a platform
> that serves open knowledge to the world across interfaces and communities.
> > We will build tools for allies and partners to organize and exchange free
> knowledge beyond Wikimedia.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Direction
>
> In fact, I have started some very casual conversations about these ideas
> (equivalent to chats by the coffee machine, except that I'm remote and I
> don't drink coffee), partially motivated by this thread.
>
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T198363 is a good umbrella task. If
> someone wants to develop the idea of creating a Wikimedia instance in the
> Fediverse (official or not), then that would deserve its own discussion.
> Where to start this discussion? IdeaLab? Maybe it doesn't matter as long as
> we have one place well advertised.
>
> There are at least three aspects to consider:
>
> * Technical: Creating i.e. a Mastodon instance somewhere is technically
> simple, running that instance in Wikimedia production servers is another
> story. While there is no need to start with a service in production, it is
> useful to consider the scenario early on.
>

It may have changed since I last checked (a bit more than a year ago), but
while it is easy to create an instance, migrating an account to another
instance, or moving an entire instance to a new domain is not (I couldn't
even find documentation on how to accomplish this. So if we start an
instance that is supposed to become an official one, we need at the very
least have the final domain name from the start. Depending on the one we
want, we still might need official support (e.g., anyone can register
wikimedians.social, but wikimedia.social is restricted to the WMF by a DPML
Block.)



>
> * Legal: Aiming for an official Wikimedia instance has implications of
> trademarks, legal requirements, and so on. While there is no need to start
> with an official instance, it is useful to consider the scenario early on.
>
Do you know what these requirements are? Are some issues unsolvable (for
example, if an official Wikimedia instance implies that no movie-based gifs
can be posted (for copyright reasons), then this instance has basically no
chance to gain a large user base. While this may not be a problem (a small
instance with a small number of accounts posting things like
#pictureOfTheDay to the whole Fediverse would still be valuable), this
would change the scope of what we try to accomplish.


>
> * Social: While creating an instance would be simple, having a critical
> mass of Wikimedians aware of it and using it regularly is not. There is no
> lack of brilliant ideas that failed because the people didn't follow. And
> here you would be fighting against resistance to change e.g. from those
> believing that Wikimedians should focus on wikis only, from Wikimedians
> well invested in corporate social networks (Facebook, Twitter, etc) and of
> course with everyone being "too busy to join another channel". Whoever
> drives this initiative must be ready to work hard explaining, promoting,
> supporting...
>

In April 2017 when the Mastodon hype wave hit France, I had several people
asking me if WMFr would create a Mastodon instance, so I'm not particularly
worried about that (If we had created the instance back then, there would
have several dozens of users creating their account). We may have lost that
momentum, but OTOH the fact that the Fediverse is still very active is a
good proof of resilience. And then again, even if there is not a critical
mass joining the instance, as it would interact with the Fediverse, this
does not mean that the few users there would be shouting in the void.



On a more personal note: I don't have enough time to lead this initiative
myself, but I would happily give help with administrating the instance, or
"explaining, promoting, supporting" it.

Cheers,
Sylvain

--
*Sylvain Boissel*
ADMINISTRATEUR SYSTÈME ET RÉSEAUX
*WIKIMÉDIA FRANCE*

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* 7 84 37 91 03*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

Quim Gil-2
Hi Sylvain!

(Let me add the disclaimer that opinions are mine and don't represent the
views of the Foundation.)

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:33 PM Sylvain Boissel <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> It may have changed since I last checked (a bit more than a year ago), but
> while it is easy to create an instance, migrating an account to another
> instance, or moving an entire instance to a new domain is not (I couldn't
> even find documentation on how to accomplish this. So if we start an
> instance that is supposed to become an official one, we need at the very
> least have the final domain name from the start. Depending on the one we
> want, we still might need official support (e.g., anyone can register
> wikimedians.social, but wikimedia.social is restricted to the WMF by a DPML
> Block.)
>

This is a good point. Renaming Mastodon instances continues to be a pain --
see https://discourse.joinmastodon.org/t/domain-changes-and-aliases/671

This is a good reason to bet on a domain for the long run. However, let's
not mix two different concepts: use of Wikimedia trademarks and official
technical support (servers, maintenance). If the promoters of this
initiative decide to propose a domain that use a Wikimedia trademark, they
can request an authorization via
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trademark_policy.

> * Legal: Aiming for an official Wikimedia instance has implications of
> > trademarks, legal requirements, and so on. While there is no need to
> start
> > with an official instance, it is useful to consider the scenario early
> on.
> >
> Do you know what these requirements are? Are some issues unsolvable (for
> example, if an official Wikimedia instance implies that no movie-based gifs
> can be posted (for copyright reasons), then this instance has basically no
> chance to gain a large user base. While this may not be a problem (a small
> instance with a small number of accounts posting things like
> #pictureOfTheDay to the whole Fediverse would still be valuable), this
> would change the scope of what we try to accomplish.
>

Honestly, no idea. I am just applying the basic reasoning that the
requirements and potential risks for content and user data will be more
complex for the Wikimedia Foundation maintaining a service officially than
for a group of individual volunteers doing the same independently as a
hobby.

If you have a clear idea about what you want to accomplish, I'd recommend
you to take the lightest steps that will lead you there. Iterations,
experiments and changes are expected anyway, being this idea so new and
different in the context of our movement. It is also an idea easy to
implement and maintain (through a service like e.g. https://masto.host or
self-hosted). And economically affordable.

--
Quim Gil
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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