[Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Denny Vrandečić-2
Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases in a
way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies formalize the
shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and widespread
languages that we know of are human natural languages, and the largest
knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human languages.

We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to collaborate
on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive and
valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language to
be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make current
Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content of
Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
currently do not have access to.

My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00, at
the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My second,
longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, October
27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.

Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf

Cheers,
Denny
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

metasj
I just saw this on the conference program!  It looks wonderful. Curious
about the estimated magnitudes :)

Thank you for sharing.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 2:32 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases in a
> way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies formalize the
> shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and widespread
> languages that we know of are human natural languages, and the largest
> knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human languages.
>
> We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
> languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to collaborate
> on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive and
> valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language to
> be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make current
> Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content of
> Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
> currently do not have access to.
>
> My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00, at
> the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My second,
> longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, October
> 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.
>
> Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Denny Vrandečić-2
In reply to this post by Denny Vrandečić-2
The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
available here:

http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf

Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the first
paper published previously.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email] wrote:

> Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases in
> a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies formalize
> the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, and the
> largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human
> languages.
>
> We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
> languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to collaborate
> on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive and
> valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language to
> be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make current
> Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content of
> Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
> currently do not have access to.
>
> My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00, at
> the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My second,
> longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, October
> 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.
>
> Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Dariusz Jemielniak-3
an interesting concept indeed!

dj

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
available here:

http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf

Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the first
paper published previously.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:

> Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases in
> a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies formalize
> the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, and the
> largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human
> languages.
>
> We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
> languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to collaborate
> on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive and
> valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language to
> be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make current
> Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content of
> Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
> currently do not have access to.
>
> My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00, at
> the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My second,
> longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, October
> 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.
>
> Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
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--
________________________________________________________
[http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>        prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>




Ostatnie artykuły:

  *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural Diversity of Quality of Information on Wikipedias<http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf> Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:  10.  2460–2470.
  *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The Limits of A-Hierarchical Organization<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf> Journal of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
  *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap Between Wikipedia and Academia<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.  1773-1776.
  *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Wikipedia<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist Review 113:  1.  103-108.
  *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of Contributor’s Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF>, PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Leila Zia
Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a chance
to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)

Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with you
and others further.

* I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial intelligence
are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section make
the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.

* I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to many
of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers to
share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).

* You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
challenge.

* In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to include
images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct? Including
images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of learning
people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
potentially think of images as representations that are already abstract.

Best,
Leila

--
Leila Zia
Senior Research Scientist, Lead
Wikimedia Foundation


On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> an interesting concept indeed!
>
> dj
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> available here:
>
> http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
>
> Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the first
> paper published previously.
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases in
> > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies formalize
> > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, and the
> > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human
> > languages.
> >
> > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
> > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to collaborate
> > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive and
> > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language to
> > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make current
> > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content of
> > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
> > currently do not have access to.
> >
> > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00, at
> > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> second,
> > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, October
> > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.
> >
> > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Denny
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
> [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
>       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
> Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
>
>
>
>
> Ostatnie artykuły:
>
>   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural Diversity of
> Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:  10.
> 2460–2470.
>   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The Limits
> of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf> Journal
> of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
>   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap Between
> Wikipedia and Academia<
> http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.  1773-1776.
>   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Wikipedia<
> http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> Review 113:  1.  103-108.
>   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of Contributor’s
> Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF>,
> PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Ariel Glenn WMF
I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all
audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers of a
given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a
religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only one
part of that.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a chance
> to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)
>
> Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with you
> and others further.
>
> * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial intelligence
> are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
> Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section make
> the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
>
> * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to many
> of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers to
> share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
>
> * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
> challenge.
>
> * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
> encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to include
> images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct? Including
> images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of learning
> people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> potentially think of images as representations that are already abstract.
>
> Best,
> Leila
>
> --
> Leila Zia
> Senior Research Scientist, Lead
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > an interesting concept indeed!
> >
> > dj
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> > available here:
> >
> > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
> >
> > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the first
> > paper published previously.
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]<mailto:
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge bases
> in
> > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> formalize
> > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, and
> the
> > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human
> > > languages.
> > >
> > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge representation
> > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> collaborate
> > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive
> and
> > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract language
> to
> > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make
> current
> > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the content
> of
> > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge they
> > > currently do not have access to.
> > >
> > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00,
> at
> > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> > second,
> > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
> October
> > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the talk.
> > >
> > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Denny
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:
> > [hidden email]>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:
> > [hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ________________________________________________________
> > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> >       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
> > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ostatnie artykuły:
> >
> >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural Diversity of
> > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> 10.
> > 2460–2470.
> >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> Limits
> > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> Journal
> > of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
> >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap Between
> > Wikipedia and Academia<
> > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.  1773-1776.
> >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Wikipedia<
> > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> > Review 113:  1.  103-108.
> >   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
> Contributor’s
> > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> >
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF
> >,
> > PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Denny Vrandečić-2
Hi Ariel,

thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every
time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or
a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's
mind!

My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up
with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So
I am glad to hear more thoughts on it.

Here are the three answers:

1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view
apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different
description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure
that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal
and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in
Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the
outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we
really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the
editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural
borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect.

2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should
have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could
have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in
general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with
their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent
a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in
another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the
Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as
I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine
- but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the
point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the
English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian
and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English
Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny,
isn't it?

3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the
Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions,
but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian
Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and
Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to
feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American
countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that
each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the
Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on
creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local
cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on
the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a
local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How
can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there
is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has
the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to
focus on their interests more.

I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will
display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look
at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and
comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would
treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article.

So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress,
but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also
very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I
think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the
dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this
question.

Cheers,
Denny

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all
> audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
> information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers of a
> given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a
> religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
> community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
> project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
> verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
> very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
> different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only one
> part of that.
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a
> chance
> > to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)
> >
> > Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with
> you
> > and others further.
> >
> > * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial intelligence
> > are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
> > Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section make
> > the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
> >
> > * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to
> many
> > of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers to
> > share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
> >
> > * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
> > challenge.
> >
> > * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
> > encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to
> include
> > images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct? Including
> > images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of
> learning
> > people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> > include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> > potentially think of images as representations that are already abstract.
> >
> > Best,
> > Leila
> >
> > --
> > Leila Zia
> > Senior Research Scientist, Lead
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > an interesting concept indeed!
> > >
> > > dj
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> > > available here:
> > >
> > > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
> > >
> > > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> > > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the
> first
> > > paper published previously.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> <mailto:
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge
> bases
> > in
> > > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> > formalize
> > > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, and
> > the
> > > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in human
> > > > languages.
> > > >
> > > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge
> representation
> > > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. We
> > > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> > collaborate
> > > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly attractive
> > and
> > > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract
> language
> > to
> > > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make
> > current
> > > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the
> content
> > of
> > > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge
> they
> > > > currently do not have access to.
> > > >
> > > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, 16:45-17:00,
> > at
> > > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> > > second,
> > > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
> > October
> > > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the
> talk.
> > > >
> > > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Denny
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:
> > > [hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ________________________________________________________
> > > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<
> http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > >       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
> > > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> > > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ostatnie artykuły:
> > >
> > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural Diversity
> of
> > > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> > > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> > 10.
> > > 2460–2470.
> > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> > Limits
> > > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> > Journal
> > > of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
> > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap Between
> > > Wikipedia and Academia<
> > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > > Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.  1773-1776.
> > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on
> Wikipedia<
> > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> > > Review 113:  1.  103-108.
> > >   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> > > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
> > Contributor’s
> > > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> > >
> >
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF
> > >,
> > > PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Scott MacLeod-2
Thanks, Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,

Re your observations, I wonder, conceptually, if the end-to-end Translation
approach of Google Translate would render what you suggest, Ariel (e.g.
someone could translate an article from a language Wikipedia and this would
produce a single translation i.e. "one article for all
audiences"), whereas developing, conceptually, a different translator
approach - i.e. from Language A to Language B - conceptually, and perhaps
building such a hypothetical translator from Wikidata's Lexicographical
project, could yield  "information depending on their role in the
communities of the speakers of a
given language" (leaving aside the Wikimedia's ContentTranslation project
at this stage).

And I wonder  re 1), Denny and Ariel, beyond cultural contexts /
differences / borders, and your Portugal and Brazil example, whether one
might add in a country approach as well. Re 2 & 3) I wonder what role
interpretation plays in writing a NPOV article in any given language, and
vis-a-vis Abstract Wikipedia too, and how these NPOV interpretations offer
benefits in their great diversity (in terms of Wikipedia's goal: "to build
a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of
all knowledge"), and the benefits of "displaying the local articles
whenever available" for inter-lingual knowledge-generation.

Thanks for the very thoughtful questions and responses.

Cheers, Scott

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ariel,
>
> thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every
> time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or
> a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's
> mind!
>
> My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up
> with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So
> I am glad to hear more thoughts on it.
>
> Here are the three answers:
>
> 1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view
> apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different
> description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure
> that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal
> and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in
> Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the
> outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we
> really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the
> editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural
> borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect.
>
> 2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should
> have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could
> have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in
> general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with
> their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent
> a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in
> another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the
> Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as
> I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine
> - but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the
> point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the
> English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian
> and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English
> Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny,
> isn't it?
>
> 3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the
> Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions,
> but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian
> Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and
> Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to
> feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American
> countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that
> each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the
> Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on
> creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local
> cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on
> the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a
> local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How
> can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there
> is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has
> the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to
> focus on their interests more.
>
> I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will
> display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look
> at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and
> comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would
> treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article.
>
> So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress,
> but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also
> very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I
> think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the
> dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this
> question.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all
> > audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
> > information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers
> of a
> > given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a
> > religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
> > community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
> > project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
> > verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
> > very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
> > different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only
> one
> > part of that.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a
> > chance
> > > to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)
> > >
> > > Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with
> > you
> > > and others further.
> > >
> > > * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial
> intelligence
> > > are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
> > > Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section
> make
> > > the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
> > >
> > > * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to
> > many
> > > of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers
> to
> > > share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
> > >
> > > * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
> > > challenge.
> > >
> > > * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
> > > encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to
> > include
> > > images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct?
> Including
> > > images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of
> > learning
> > > people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> > > include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> > > potentially think of images as representations that are already
> abstract.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leila
> > >
> > > --
> > > Leila Zia
> > > Senior Research Scientist, Lead
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > an interesting concept indeed!
> > > >
> > > > dj
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> > > > available here:
> > > >
> > > > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> > > > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the
> > first
> > > > paper published previously.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > <mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge
> > bases
> > > in
> > > > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> > > formalize
> > > > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in
> human
> > > > > languages.
> > > > >
> > > > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge
> > representation
> > > > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English.
> We
> > > > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> > > collaborate
> > > > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly
> attractive
> > > and
> > > > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract
> > language
> > > to
> > > > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make
> > > current
> > > > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the
> > content
> > > of
> > > > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge
> > they
> > > > > currently do not have access to.
> > > > >
> > > > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018,
> 16:45-17:00,
> > > at
> > > > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> > > > second,
> > > > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
> > > October
> > > > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the
> > talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Denny
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<
> > http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > > > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital
> Societies)
> > > > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> > > > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ostatnie artykuły:
> > > >
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural
> Diversity
> > of
> > > > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> > > > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > > > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> > > 10.
> > > > 2460–2470.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> > > Limits
> > > > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> > > Journal
> > > > of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap
> Between
> > > > Wikipedia and Academia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > > > Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.
> 1773-1776.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on
> > Wikipedia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> > > > Review 113:  1.  103-108.
> > > >   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> > > > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
> > > Contributor’s
> > > > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF
> > > >,
> > > > PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia in an abstract language

Info WorldUniversity
In reply to this post by Denny Vrandečić-2
Hi Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,

I sent this at noon today, but it didn't go through to this email address,
so am re-sending now from here.

Suggestions about how these email lists might work differently?

Best, Scott



Scott MacLeod <[hidden email]>
12:01 PM (5 hours ago)
to Wikimedia
Thanks, Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,

Re your observations, I wonder, conceptually, if the end-to-end Translation
approach of Google Translate would render what you suggest, Ariel (e.g.
someone could translate an article from a language Wikipedia and this would
produce a single translation i.e. "one article for all
audiences"), whereas developing, conceptually, a different translator
approach - i.e. from Language A to Language B - conceptually, and perhaps
building such a hypothetical translator from Wikidata's Lexicographical
project, could yield  "information depending on their role in the
communities of the speakers of a
given language" (leaving aside the Wikimedia's ContentTranslation project
at this stage).

And I wonder  re 1), Denny and Ariel, beyond cultural contexts /
differences / borders, and your Portugal and Brazil example, whether one
might add in a country approach as well. Re 2 & 3) I wonder what role
interpretation plays in writing a NPOV article in any given language, and
vis-a-vis Abstract Wikipedia too, and how these NPOV interpretations offer
benefits in their great diversity (in terms of Wikipedia's goal: "to build
a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of
all knowledge"), and the benefits of "displaying the local articles
whenever available" for inter-lingual knowledge-generation.

Thanks for the very thoughtful questions and responses.

Cheers, Scott

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ariel,
>
> thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every
> time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or
> a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's
> mind!
>
> My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up
> with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So
> I am glad to hear more thoughts on it.
>
> Here are the three answers:
>
> 1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view
> apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different
> description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure
> that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal
> and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in
> Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the
> outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we
> really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the
> editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural
> borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect.
>
> 2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should
> have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could
> have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in
> general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with
> their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent
> a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in
> another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the
> Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as
> I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine
> - but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the
> point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the
> English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian
> and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English
> Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny,
> isn't it?
>
> 3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the
> Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions,
> but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian
> Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and
> Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to
> feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American
> countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that
> each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the
> Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on
> creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local
> cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on
> the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a
> local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How
> can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there
> is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has
> the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to
> focus on their interests more.
>
> I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will
> display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look
> at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and
> comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would
> treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article.
>
> So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress,
> but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also
> very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I
> think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the
> dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this
> question.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all
> > audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
> > information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers
> of a
> > given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a
> > religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
> > community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
> > project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
> > verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
> > very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
> > different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only
> one
> > part of that.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a
> > chance
> > > to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)
> > >
> > > Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with
> > you
> > > and others further.
> > >
> > > * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial
> intelligence
> > > are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
> > > Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section
> make
> > > the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
> > >
> > > * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to
> > many
> > > of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers
> to
> > > share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
> > >
> > > * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
> > > challenge.
> > >
> > > * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
> > > encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to
> > include
> > > images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct?
> Including
> > > images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of
> > learning
> > > people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> > > include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> > > potentially think of images as representations that are already
> abstract.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leila
> > >
> > > --
> > > Leila Zia
> > > Senior Research Scientist, Lead
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > an interesting concept indeed!
> > > >
> > > > dj
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> > > > available here:
> > > >
> > > > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> > > > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the
> > first
> > > > paper published previously.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]
> > <mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge
> > bases
> > > in
> > > > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> > > formalize
> > > > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in
> human
> > > > > languages.
> > > > >
> > > > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge
> > representation
> > > > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English.
> We
> > > > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> > > collaborate
> > > > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly
> attractive
> > > and
> > > > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract
> > language
> > > to
> > > > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make
> > > current
> > > > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the
> > content
> > > of
> > > > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge
> > they
> > > > > currently do not have access to.
> > > > >
> > > > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018,
> 16:45-17:00,
> > > at
> > > > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> > > > second,
> > > > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
> > > October
> > > > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the
> > talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Denny
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]<mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]>?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<
> > http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > > > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital
> Societies)
> > > > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> > > > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ostatnie artykuły:
> > > >
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural
> Diversity
> > of
> > > > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> > > > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > > > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> > > 10.
> > > > 2460–2470.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> > > Limits
> > > > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> > > Journal
> > > > of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap
> Between
> > > > Wikipedia and Academia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > > > Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.
> 1773-1776.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on
> > Wikipedia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> > > > Review 113:  1.  103-108.
> > > >   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> > > > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
> > > Contributor’s
> > > > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF
> > > >,
> > > > PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> > > > _______________________________________________
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