[Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Jimmy Wales-5

Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
all of you information about this new initiative early on.

The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
"top down" in a way.
(Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)

This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
Wikimedians who tend to immediately
get it.

While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
projects in
the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
professional journalists and communities and make use of them.

You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
https://www.wikitribune.com

Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
answer in bursts!)

--Jimbo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Ziko van Dijk-3
Hello Jimmy,

Thank you for your mail to this list; I saw the announcement earlier this
day and read the Wikitribune.com website, watched the video, and also read
a newspaper article. Honestly, I am still not quite sure whether I
understood fully what Wikitribune is supposed to be. :-)

- What is the exact purpose of the site? To produce something, or to judge
something? What is the product? Wikitribune pages with a specific kind of
information or knowledge? A label to be put on news sites?
- "Anyone can flag or fix an article and submit it for review." - Who is
going to start a segment or item on the Wikitribune site? Are people
allowed to create several items about the same issue?
- How to resolve conflicts or differences in opinion? Will there be a
statute or rule codex people can stick to? Will there be specific people in
authority about a segment or the whole site? Will people vote?
- "Supporting Wikitribune means ensuring that that [sic!] journalists only
write articles based on facts that they can verify" - how will Wikitribune
ensure that, force journalists to do that? Will Wikitribune provide a kind
of certificate for news sites?

Kind regards,
Ziko








2017-04-25 23:59 GMT+02:00 Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]>:

>
> Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> all of you information about this new initiative early on.
>
> The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> "top down" in a way.
> (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
>
> This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> get it.
>
> While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> projects in
> the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
>
> You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> https://www.wikitribune.com
>
> Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> answer in bursts!)
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales-5
On 25 April 2017 at 22:59, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> all of you information about this new initiative early on.


I was one of the Wikipedians at the hackathon days for this, a few
weeks ago. (And now it's gone live and I can speak of it in good
conscience!)

The obvious comparison is Wikinews. Now, Wikinews contributors are
determined that WikiNews is a good project that deserves to live, and
they also resent Wikipedia for doing news more effectively as a
sideline than they do as their main thing and the WMF is unfair and so
forth. But from the outside view, it's important to note that
approximately nobody cares about Wikinews and it's a failure in
impact. Or: if WikiTribune turns out to have the content,
participation and readership of Wikinews, it will have failed.

The question is why Wikinews didn't take off. There's a sort of myth
that it's too process-heavy - but the rough WikiTribune rules on the
day (which may or may not be the ones they go live with) were *pretty
much the Wikinews process*. (I looked them up on the day.) So that
isn't the missing magic ingredient.

I suspect one big problem is that journalism anyone's interested in
reading involves gathering dubious information and assessing how true
it is likely to be. It's pretty much a process of turning bad sources
into good ones. Actual reporting tends to work like "I talked to these
three separate sources, none of whose names I can print, but I'll tell
you my editor." "Yep, looks likely enough to run." Bam, scoop. It's
hard to do that in a fully transparent manner (put up the recordings,
etc) without outing your sources. I spoke to one journalist on the day
and they concurred.

And that's before you get into there being no such thing as neutral
news, just news that pretends to be. It's not clear that NPOV is even
a good idea - selection of stories to cover is a huge bias.

There's also the danger of the other failure mode of citizen
journalism. The example I brought up on the day was BeforeItsNews.com
- I won't spoil it for you, go there and see what sort of stories it
covers and what sort of advertising it runs. It turns out you need
sane editorial control at some level.

It's possible the missing magical ingredient that will let it take off
will be paid professional journalists - that this will produce a news
site that's exciting enough, and not just "me too" stories everyone is
already running, to get subscribers. But again, it'll need some way
for them to say "This is the story, I'm not revealing my sources, but
me and x editor concur it's a news story we'd stand by running."

WordPress is probably the least-worst option for a CMS. MediaWiki is a
horrible CMS for anything that isn't a reference work. You can do
almost anything with WordPress if you throw enough money at extension
development. (Which may or may not be a good idea.)

Anyway, I'll be watching closely and probably diving in at least slightly.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

James Salsman-2
I have a question: the news about pending Chinese "supply-side structural
reforms" is almost all about matching supply to demand; for example see
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-01/22/c_136004899.htm

But if you look at pp. 42 and 63 here, you see the proposaled legislative
reforms are actually about replacing a progressive income tax with a flat
VAT: http://en.ndrc.gov.cn/newsrelease/201612/P020161207645765233498.pdf

Does the Wikitribune model have a way to make sure that the truth is being
told? How would it work in this particular instance?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:56 AM David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 April 2017 at 22:59, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> > to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> > all of you information about this new initiative early on.
>
>
> I was one of the Wikipedians at the hackathon days for this, a few
> weeks ago. (And now it's gone live and I can speak of it in good
> conscience!)
>
> The obvious comparison is Wikinews. Now, Wikinews contributors are
> determined that WikiNews is a good project that deserves to live, and
> they also resent Wikipedia for doing news more effectively as a
> sideline than they do as their main thing and the WMF is unfair and so
> forth. But from the outside view, it's important to note that
> approximately nobody cares about Wikinews and it's a failure in
> impact. Or: if WikiTribune turns out to have the content,
> participation and readership of Wikinews, it will have failed.
>
> The question is why Wikinews didn't take off. There's a sort of myth
> that it's too process-heavy - but the rough WikiTribune rules on the
> day (which may or may not be the ones they go live with) were *pretty
> much the Wikinews process*. (I looked them up on the day.) So that
> isn't the missing magic ingredient.
>
> I suspect one big problem is that journalism anyone's interested in
> reading involves gathering dubious information and assessing how true
> it is likely to be. It's pretty much a process of turning bad sources
> into good ones. Actual reporting tends to work like "I talked to these
> three separate sources, none of whose names I can print, but I'll tell
> you my editor." "Yep, looks likely enough to run." Bam, scoop. It's
> hard to do that in a fully transparent manner (put up the recordings,
> etc) without outing your sources. I spoke to one journalist on the day
> and they concurred.
>
> And that's before you get into there being no such thing as neutral
> news, just news that pretends to be. It's not clear that NPOV is even
> a good idea - selection of stories to cover is a huge bias.
>
> There's also the danger of the other failure mode of citizen
> journalism. The example I brought up on the day was BeforeItsNews.com
> - I won't spoil it for you, go there and see what sort of stories it
> covers and what sort of advertising it runs. It turns out you need
> sane editorial control at some level.
>
> It's possible the missing magical ingredient that will let it take off
> will be paid professional journalists - that this will produce a news
> site that's exciting enough, and not just "me too" stories everyone is
> already running, to get subscribers. But again, it'll need some way
> for them to say "This is the story, I'm not revealing my sources, but
> me and x editor concur it's a news story we'd stand by running."
>
> WordPress is probably the least-worst option for a CMS. MediaWiki is a
> horrible CMS for anything that isn't a reference work. You can do
> almost anything with WordPress if you throw enough money at extension
> development. (Which may or may not be a good idea.)
>
> Anyway, I'll be watching closely and probably diving in at least slightly.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Fæ
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales-5
Hi Jimmy,

Along with the public announcement to the press about Wikitribune, was
the story that you had immediately resigned from The Guardian's board
because the new company "will compete for staff, stories and
donations".[1] Will you be resigning from the WMF board of trustees
because the Wikitribune commercial venture is a conflict of loyalties?

This seems like an issue that the revitalized Wikimedia Foundation
Board Governance Committee should make an independent statement about,
considering the unique nature of your permanent unelected seat as a
WMF trustee?[2]

For the record, it is worth noting that in February 2016,[3] your
conflict of loyalties between being the successful owner of the Wikia
commercial venture, and holding a permanent seat on the board of the
Wikimedia Foundation was raised as a discussion topic on this list.
Wikia has never been publicly declared by the WMF board as a possible
conflict of interest, despite a history of staff migrating directly
from WMF to Wikia, and the obvious reputational benefits to Wikia from
having their owner sitting on the WMF board. In fact apart from
denying the possibility that this was an issue with your statement "I
have always declared, formally and in writing, my role at Wikia. I
have additionally worked to make sure that all board members know
about it, and I have on multiple occasions recused myself from votes
where there could be a perceived or actual conflict of interest", you
refused properly to engage further with discussing this potential
conflict of loyalties in 2016, nor did you supply any evidence of a
formal declaration apart from your email, nor has it ever been
declared in the public minutes of WMF board meetings as an interest if
you have recused from votes or strategic discussion at your meetings
as a trustee; though SJ confirmed that he thought you had declared
this as an interest in past board meetings, presumably this was
mistakenly and unfortunately left out of the minutes each time it
happened.

Thanks,
Fae

Links:
1. "Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales exits Guardian board over
conflict of interest with Wikitribune news site"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/25/wikipedia-co-founder-jimmy-wales-exits-guardian-board-conflict/
2. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_Governance_Committee
3. "Jimmy Wales' potential conflict of loyalties for Wikia Inc. versus
WMF" https://lists.gt.net/wiki/foundation/685587

On 25 April 2017 at 22:59, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> all of you information about this new initiative early on.
>
> The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> "top down" in a way.
> (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
>
> This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> get it.
>
> While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> projects in
> the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
>
> You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> https://www.wikitribune.com
>
> Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> answer in bursts!)
>
> --Jimbo
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

metasj
Fae.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> because the new company "will compete for staff, stories and
> donations".[1] Will you be resigning from the WMF board of trustees
>

I hope not.  I hardly see a conflict of loyalties; to the extent there is
an overlap of focus, the output of WikiTribune will be available to both WN
and WP, the only current sister projects covering news.


> considering the unique nature of your permanent unelected seat
>

Not permanent, only exempt from term limits. It requires regular
appointment, else sits empty.


> In fact apart from denying the possibility that this was an issue with
> your
>
statement "<snip explicit, comprehensive statement of COI and recusal>",

you refused properly to engage further...


Someone refusing to engage further in being badgered?  Never. :-)

I'm not sure what you're missing here.  Ties to Wikia carry COI; this has
come up in public discussions about the Board since the very first slate of
Trustees & is not in question. There's a formal annual COI process for
Trustees, which mandates declaring potential conflicts, and recusing as
appropriate from related decisions.  Those declarations haven't been made
public for anyone (Allowing me to keep the extent of my investment in
Newpedia private.)  In Jimbo's case, conflicts are pretty well hashed out
in public as well.

SJ

P.S.  Nice launch and a most elegant design, Wikitribunnies!
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Pine W
On the subject of Jimbo being exempt from term limits, my belief is that
Jimbo's seat should become a standard community-chosen seat, and no one
should be exempt from term limits. I am particularly mindful of the
governance problems that have happened while Jimbo has been on the WMF
Board, and WMF's refusal to have an external inquiry into those problems by
a third party who would make a public report. I am also mindful of WMF's
clashes with the community (such as SuperProtect) that have happened while
Jimbo has been on the WMF Board. Given the totality of the circumstances, I
believe that Jimbo's seat should become a standard community-chosen seat so
that the community has a chance to express its level of confidence in
whether Jimbo should remain on the WMF Board.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Michael Snow-5
On 4/25/2017 10:30 PM, Pine W wrote:

> On the subject of Jimbo being exempt from term limits, my belief is that
> Jimbo's seat should become a standard community-chosen seat, and no one
> should be exempt from term limits. I am particularly mindful of the
> governance problems that have happened while Jimbo has been on the WMF
> Board, and WMF's refusal to have an external inquiry into those problems by
> a third party who would make a public report. I am also mindful of WMF's
> clashes with the community (such as SuperProtect) that have happened while
> Jimbo has been on the WMF Board. Given the totality of the circumstances, I
> believe that Jimbo's seat should become a standard community-chosen seat so
> that the community has a chance to express its level of confidence in
> whether Jimbo should remain on the WMF Board.
People are certainly entitled to form their own opinions about Jimmy's
ongoing role, including how or whether it should be continued. But
simply alluding to issues that have happened while he has been on the
Board of Trustees says very little. Jimmy has been on the Board from the
beginning, so of course everything that has happened, good and bad,
happened while he was on the Board. Unless there's something about his
personal conduct or how he has used his position that uniquely
contributes to particular problems, this sounds more like advocating
change for the sake of change, not an actual solution to anything.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Ariel Glenn WMF
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales-5
Hi Jimmy,

The articles I've read on the new venture have been like appetizers,
providing just enough information to generate a new list of questions. :-)
So, in no particular order, here are some things that came to mind:

Will the focus be investigative journalism, or "deep dives" in the manner
of newsdeeply.com, or breaking news, or something else?

AIUI, fact-checking will be done by community volunteers in the
collaborative manner of Wikipedia; will they flag information that they
consider to be problematic, annotate draft news articles with comments and
questions, revise drafts themselves,...?

The website shows an initial goal of ten journalists to be hired; does this
include copy editors as well?  And more generally, how will copy editing be
handled?

With what frequency do you envision news to be published, e.g. a weekly
magazine, a daily feed of several short pieces and one feature article, ...?

Who will have access to journalists' notes and other raw materials?  How
will sources be protected while permitting maximum participation of
community volunteers in the vetting/fact-checking process?  Will there be
provision for leakers, i.e. some sort of SecureDrop thing?  If so, how will
that be handled?

Will guides be produced around vetting of information, like e.g. the guide
at verificationhandbook.com?  More generally, how will community members
learn vetting and verification skills for journalism?

How will good-faith disputes around fact-checking be resolved and by whom?
How will trolls be handled?

Will Wikitribune journalists collaborate with other groups doing
like-minded work, for example bellingcat.com?

I gather that there are developers working on this project too, at least on
wordpress hacking; are they also part of the crowdfunding?  More generally,
is budget/staffing information available or will it be soon?

What roles will the four named advisors play in this project, with their
specific skillsets?

In an ever shrinking paid market for journalism, where funding is harder
and harder to come by and many publications have closed their doors or
turned digital-only, what are your thoughts about competing in that market,
both as a job provider and potentially taking subscribers from other media?

Please feel free to ramble on at length about these topics as much as you
like; I'm interested in the broader picture and not just the specific
details :-)

Thanks a lot!

Ariel

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> all of you information about this new initiative early on.
>
> The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> "top down" in a way.
> (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
>
> This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> get it.
>
> While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> projects in
> the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
>
> You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> https://www.wikitribune.com
>
> Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> answer in bursts!)
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Andrea Zanni-2
Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/thread.html

There are several threads worth revisiting:
I was looking for an old-but-great Andrew Lih's post about Wikinews², and I
re-discovered that a project had forkedfrom Wikinews in 2011³: it was
called the http://theopenglobe.org, and (spoiler) it's now dead.

Generally speaking, I think that Jimmy experimenting with another project
speaks volume:
and I do think it's a good idea.

Simply put, we have a lot of zombie projects, and we¹ never had the will to
do the tough decision
of killing them... *or* really investing in them.
At the moment, the actual policy with sister projects (all of them, minus
Wikidata), is
"don't ask don't tell".

The communities do what they can, and what they cannot do they don't.
There is no non-volunteer development, and even no knowledge about sister
projects, both within the WMF and the rest of the movement. Wikipedians
rarely go in sister projects.

I really hope this Strategy process will be seen by the larger community as
the right chance to discuss all this. A lot of strategy statements go into
the direction "collect/provide all written and oral knowledge ever
produced", which is more or less our vision, and this is why we thought to
create non-encyclopedic projects in the first place (a image archive; a
library; a dictionary; a quote compendium; etc.).

It's probably time that we have this conversation.

Aubrey
(your friendly occasional Nemo)
Wikisource Community User Group


<http://theopenglobe.org>
¹ meaning, *we* that live on these mailing lists
² this:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068381.html
³
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068290.html

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Ariel Glenn WMF <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Jimmy,
>
> The articles I've read on the new venture have been like appetizers,
> providing just enough information to generate a new list of questions. :-)
> So, in no particular order, here are some things that came to mind:
>
> Will the focus be investigative journalism, or "deep dives" in the manner
> of newsdeeply.com, or breaking news, or something else?
>
> AIUI, fact-checking will be done by community volunteers in the
> collaborative manner of Wikipedia; will they flag information that they
> consider to be problematic, annotate draft news articles with comments and
> questions, revise drafts themselves,...?
>
> The website shows an initial goal of ten journalists to be hired; does this
> include copy editors as well?  And more generally, how will copy editing be
> handled?
>
> With what frequency do you envision news to be published, e.g. a weekly
> magazine, a daily feed of several short pieces and one feature article,
> ...?
>
> Who will have access to journalists' notes and other raw materials?  How
> will sources be protected while permitting maximum participation of
> community volunteers in the vetting/fact-checking process?  Will there be
> provision for leakers, i.e. some sort of SecureDrop thing?  If so, how will
> that be handled?
>
> Will guides be produced around vetting of information, like e.g. the guide
> at verificationhandbook.com?  More generally, how will community members
> learn vetting and verification skills for journalism?
>
> How will good-faith disputes around fact-checking be resolved and by whom?
> How will trolls be handled?
>
> Will Wikitribune journalists collaborate with other groups doing
> like-minded work, for example bellingcat.com?
>
> I gather that there are developers working on this project too, at least on
> wordpress hacking; are they also part of the crowdfunding?  More generally,
> is budget/staffing information available or will it be soon?
>
> What roles will the four named advisors play in this project, with their
> specific skillsets?
>
> In an ever shrinking paid market for journalism, where funding is harder
> and harder to come by and many publications have closed their doors or
> turned digital-only, what are your thoughts about competing in that market,
> both as a job provider and potentially taking subscribers from other media?
>
> Please feel free to ramble on at length about these topics as much as you
> like; I'm interested in the broader picture and not just the specific
> details :-)
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Ariel
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> > to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> > all of you information about this new initiative early on.
> >
> > The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> > bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> > produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> > hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> > right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> > commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> > active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> > "top down" in a way.
> > (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
> >
> > This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> > vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> > Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> > get it.
> >
> > While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> > Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> > alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> > that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> > collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> > learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> > utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> > projects in
> > the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> > professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
> >
> > You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> > https://www.wikitribune.com
> >
> > Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> > quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> > answer in bursts!)
> >
> > --Jimbo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

David Gerard-2
On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/thread.html


Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads
in that page.

That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)

You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from
any reasonable outside perspective.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Andrea Zanni-2
Re: metrics and numbers,
monthly pageviews are visibile on stats.wikimedia¹, but it would be much
easier to have
a dedicated section on siteviews².

Of course, pageviews are one of the many metrics to take into consideration
while evaluation a project,
but of course it's important.

Aubrey


¹ https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyAllProjects.htm
²
https://tools.wmflabs.org/siteviews/?platform=all-access&source=pageviews&agent=user&range=latest-20&sites=

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:15 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-
> September/thread.html
>
>
> Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads
> in that page.
>
> That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
> But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
> process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
> reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
> relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)
>
> You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from
> any reasonable outside perspective.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Alessandro Marchetti
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
So we are talking about dead/small projects now? 
I work on many of them and I think that what WMF is mainly rationalization. It's not about just turning them off but merging, interacting or rebranding many times. IMHO. The problem are both the few user active on them which are proud and they want to loose their "little space" and the snob attitude of users on big wikipedias. Such a pity, there is plenty of room for improvement once you go beyond the simplest black/white scenario. I guess people just need time to think of the platform as an ecosystem, where really few things needs to be removed, whilst it does require flexibility to integrate and rethink them. 
I hope new generation of users will help us in going that directions. i am still wondering why we don't have a unified cross-language platform for some of them yet. I don't care if in 2003 or 2004 someone was unable to understand English... we had commons, wikidata, SUL... seriously talk to newbies and get over it. I am not citing any platform specifically here, just to avoid long mails defending the status quo. Let's leave colonel Kurtz in the jungle, he will get tired one day.
But about wikinews for example, I make interviews on itwikinews. Not recently, but I have a long list of option when i have more time. I link them to the articles, they looks fine as an integration. Also they are a wonderful way to establish different connections. So sad noone uses it, because they could. The news part has low activity, but for example it still attracts new young users. One of the most motivated young WMI members comes from the "poor" itwikinews. He's very young yet he organized an event, specifically in an area where wiki.activities were missing since a decade. Without the freedom of wikinews, he would have needed much time to get the same level of confidence. I don't think that itwikipedia users understand these aspects, do they? So can you find me a replacement for that? And please notice, i am not defending my little garden here, I just work there sometimes and I see things that are useful to preserve. Can you do it somehow, while closing it? That's what I need to know.



 

    Il Mercoledì 26 Aprile 2017 12:16, David Gerard <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
 

 On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/thread.html


Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads
in that page.

That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)

You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from
any reasonable outside perspective.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Erik Zachte-3
Here is a high level Wikistats page on how our projects fared in terms of active wikis.
https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ProjectTrendsActiveWikis.html

Erik Zachte
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alessandro Marchetti
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 13:01
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

So we are talking about dead/small projects now? I work on many of them and I think that what WMF is mainly rationalization. It's not about just turning them off but merging, interacting or rebranding many times. IMHO. The problem are both the few user active on them which are proud and they want to loose their "little space" and the snob attitude of users on big wikipedias. Such a pity, there is plenty of room for improvement once you go beyond the simplest black/white scenario. I guess people just need time to think of the platform as an ecosystem, where really few things needs to be removed, whilst it does require flexibility to integrate and rethink them. I hope new generation of users will help us in going that directions. i am still wondering why we don't have a unified cross-language platform for some of them yet. I don't care if in 2003 or 2004 someone was unable to understand English... we had commons, wikidata, SUL... seriously talk to newbies and get over it. I am not citing any platform specifically here, just to avoid long mails defending the status quo. Let's leave colonel Kurtz in the jungle, he will get tired one day.
But about wikinews for example, I make interviews on itwikinews. Not recently, but I have a long list of option when i have more time. I link them to the articles, they looks fine as an integration. Also they are a wonderful way to establish different connections. So sad noone uses it, because they could. The news part has low activity, but for example it still attracts new young users. One of the most motivated young WMI members comes from the "poor" itwikinews. He's very young yet he organized an event, specifically in an area where wiki.activities were missing since a decade. Without the freedom of wikinews, he would have needed much time to get the same level of confidence. I don't think that itwikipedia users understand these aspects, do they? So can you find me a replacement for that? And please notice, i am not defending my little garden here, I just work there sometimes and I see things that are useful to preserve. Can you do it somehow, while closing it? That's what I need to know.



 

    Il Mercoledì 26 Aprile 2017 12:16, David Gerard <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
 

 On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/thre
> ad.html


Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads in that page.

That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)

You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from any reasonable outside perspective.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

metasj
Interesting, thanks Erik.  I like those views!

The jump in Wikivoyage activity in 2013 is telling: public attention to
projects has a tremendous difference in their ability to attract and keep
dedicated long-term contributors.

That's one of the only times we've had a set of big public news items and
discussions about a sister project, in a decade.  [It would be nice to see
similar charts for commons/wikidata/wikispecies; those generally had less
dramatic / more niche public attention, and mainly around their founding.]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Erik Zachte <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a high level Wikistats page on how our projects fared in terms of
> active wikis.
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ProjectTrendsActiveWikis.html
>
> Erik Zachte
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Alessandro Marchetti
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 13:01
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!
>
> So we are talking about dead/small projects now? I work on many of them
> and I think that what WMF is mainly rationalization. It's not about just
> turning them off but merging, interacting or rebranding many times. IMHO.
> The problem are both the few user active on them which are proud and they
> want to loose their "little space" and the snob attitude of users on big
> wikipedias. Such a pity, there is plenty of room for improvement once you
> go beyond the simplest black/white scenario. I guess people just need time
> to think of the platform as an ecosystem, where really few things needs to
> be removed, whilst it does require flexibility to integrate and rethink
> them. I hope new generation of users will help us in going that directions.
> i am still wondering why we don't have a unified cross-language platform
> for some of them yet. I don't care if in 2003 or 2004 someone was unable to
> understand English... we had commons, wikidata, SUL... seriously talk to
> newbies and get over it. I am not citing any platform specifically here,
> just to avoid long mails defending the status quo. Let's leave colonel
> Kurtz in the jungle, he will get tired one day.
> But about wikinews for example, I make interviews on itwikinews. Not
> recently, but I have a long list of option when i have more time. I link
> them to the articles, they looks fine as an integration. Also they are a
> wonderful way to establish different connections. So sad noone uses it,
> because they could. The news part has low activity, but for example it
> still attracts new young users. One of the most motivated young WMI members
> comes from the "poor" itwikinews. He's very young yet he organized an
> event, specifically in an area where wiki.activities were missing since a
> decade. Without the freedom of wikinews, he would have needed much time to
> get the same level of confidence. I don't think that itwikipedia users
> understand these aspects, do they? So can you find me a replacement for
> that? And please notice, i am not defending my little garden here, I just
> work there sometimes and I see things that are useful to preserve. Can you
> do it somehow, while closing it? That's what I need to know.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Il Mercoledì 26 Aprile 2017 12:16, David Gerard <[hidden email]>
> ha scritto:
>
>
>  On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/thre
> > ad.html
>
>
> Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads in
> that page.
>
> That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
> But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
> process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
> reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
> relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)
>
> You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from any
> reasonable outside perspective.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
<(617)%20529-4266>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Erik Zachte-3
For those who don't know, the jump in active wikis in Wikivoyage is when we forked and adopted the Wikitravel project.
Edits before 2013 were not done under our umbrella.

@SJ, there is no trend chart for 'active wikis' in 'Other projects', as those are not a homogeneous group.

But for wiki specific trends in that group see
https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/ReportCardTopWikis.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Samuel Klein
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 17:55
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Interesting, thanks Erik.  I like those views!

The jump in Wikivoyage activity in 2013 is telling: public attention to projects has a tremendous difference in their ability to attract and keep dedicated long-term contributors.

That's one of the only times we've had a set of big public news items and discussions about a sister project, in a decade.  [It would be nice to see similar charts for commons/wikidata/wikispecies; those generally had less dramatic / more niche public attention, and mainly around their founding.]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Erik Zachte <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a high level Wikistats page on how our projects fared in terms
> of active wikis.
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ProjectTrendsActiveWikis.html
>
> Erik Zachte
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Alessandro Marchetti
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 13:01
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!
>
> So we are talking about dead/small projects now? I work on many of
> them and I think that what WMF is mainly rationalization. It's not
> about just turning them off but merging, interacting or rebranding many times. IMHO.
> The problem are both the few user active on them which are proud and
> they want to loose their "little space" and the snob attitude of users
> on big wikipedias. Such a pity, there is plenty of room for
> improvement once you go beyond the simplest black/white scenario. I
> guess people just need time to think of the platform as an ecosystem,
> where really few things needs to be removed, whilst it does require
> flexibility to integrate and rethink them. I hope new generation of users will help us in going that directions.
> i am still wondering why we don't have a unified cross-language
> platform for some of them yet. I don't care if in 2003 or 2004 someone
> was unable to understand English... we had commons, wikidata, SUL...
> seriously talk to newbies and get over it. I am not citing any
> platform specifically here, just to avoid long mails defending the
> status quo. Let's leave colonel Kurtz in the jungle, he will get tired one day.
> But about wikinews for example, I make interviews on itwikinews. Not
> recently, but I have a long list of option when i have more time. I
> link them to the articles, they looks fine as an integration. Also
> they are a wonderful way to establish different connections. So sad
> noone uses it, because they could. The news part has low activity, but
> for example it still attracts new young users. One of the most
> motivated young WMI members comes from the "poor" itwikinews. He's
> very young yet he organized an event, specifically in an area where
> wiki.activities were missing since a decade. Without the freedom of
> wikinews, he would have needed much time to get the same level of
> confidence. I don't think that itwikipedia users understand these
> aspects, do they? So can you find me a replacement for that? And
> please notice, i am not defending my little garden here, I just work
> there sometimes and I see things that are useful to preserve. Can you do it somehow, while closing it? That's what I need to know.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Il Mercoledì 26 Aprile 2017 12:16, David Gerard
> <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
>
>  On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/th
> > re
> > ad.html
>
>
> Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads
> in that page.
>
> That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
> But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
> process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
> reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
> relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)
>
> You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from
> any reasonable outside perspective.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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<(617)%20529-4266>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Yaroslav Blanter
For Wikivoyage in 2012, there were two factors which contributed to the
increase of editing activity:

1) Greater visibility as a WMF project;

2) Moving to a new platform without advertisements (I for one joined it at
the very first day it moved for exactly this reason).

However, concerning the readership, the English Wikivoyage still suffers
because seacrh engines think it is a clone of Wikitravel and do not show
it. Nobody knows what to do with that. Other language editions have less of
this problem.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Erik Zachte <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For those who don't know, the jump in active wikis in Wikivoyage is when
> we forked and adopted the Wikitravel project.
> Edits before 2013 were not done under our umbrella.
>
> @SJ, there is no trend chart for 'active wikis' in 'Other projects', as
> those are not a homogeneous group.
>
> But for wiki specific trends in that group see
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/ReportCardTopWikis.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Samuel Klein
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 17:55
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!
>
> Interesting, thanks Erik.  I like those views!
>
> The jump in Wikivoyage activity in 2013 is telling: public attention to
> projects has a tremendous difference in their ability to attract and keep
> dedicated long-term contributors.
>
> That's one of the only times we've had a set of big public news items and
> discussions about a sister project, in a decade.  [It would be nice to see
> similar charts for commons/wikidata/wikispecies; those generally had less
> dramatic / more niche public attention, and mainly around their founding.]
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Erik Zachte <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Here is a high level Wikistats page on how our projects fared in terms
> > of active wikis.
> > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ProjectTrendsActiveWikis.html
> >
> > Erik Zachte
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Alessandro Marchetti
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 13:01
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!
> >
> > So we are talking about dead/small projects now? I work on many of
> > them and I think that what WMF is mainly rationalization. It's not
> > about just turning them off but merging, interacting or rebranding many
> times. IMHO.
> > The problem are both the few user active on them which are proud and
> > they want to loose their "little space" and the snob attitude of users
> > on big wikipedias. Such a pity, there is plenty of room for
> > improvement once you go beyond the simplest black/white scenario. I
> > guess people just need time to think of the platform as an ecosystem,
> > where really few things needs to be removed, whilst it does require
> > flexibility to integrate and rethink them. I hope new generation of
> users will help us in going that directions.
> > i am still wondering why we don't have a unified cross-language
> > platform for some of them yet. I don't care if in 2003 or 2004 someone
> > was unable to understand English... we had commons, wikidata, SUL...
> > seriously talk to newbies and get over it. I am not citing any
> > platform specifically here, just to avoid long mails defending the
> > status quo. Let's leave colonel Kurtz in the jungle, he will get tired
> one day.
> > But about wikinews for example, I make interviews on itwikinews. Not
> > recently, but I have a long list of option when i have more time. I
> > link them to the articles, they looks fine as an integration. Also
> > they are a wonderful way to establish different connections. So sad
> > noone uses it, because they could. The news part has low activity, but
> > for example it still attracts new young users. One of the most
> > motivated young WMI members comes from the "poor" itwikinews. He's
> > very young yet he organized an event, specifically in an area where
> > wiki.activities were missing since a decade. Without the freedom of
> > wikinews, he would have needed much time to get the same level of
> > confidence. I don't think that itwikipedia users understand these
> > aspects, do they? So can you find me a replacement for that? And
> > please notice, i am not defending my little garden here, I just work
> > there sometimes and I see things that are useful to preserve. Can you do
> it somehow, while closing it? That's what I need to know.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Il Mercoledì 26 Aprile 2017 12:16, David Gerard
> > <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> >
> >
> >  On 26 April 2017 at 09:23, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/th
> > > re
> > > ad.html
> >
> >
> > Everyone interested in Wikified news should read the Wikinews threads
> > in that page.
> >
> > That's where the complaint that Wikinews is process-heavy comes from.
> > But it really isn't process-heavy at all, if you look at the actual
> > process. The blocker appears to have been insufficient or careless
> > reviewers. (Japan getting a new Prime Minister apparently not being
> > relevant to Wikinews because the sources weren't in English.)
> >
> > You'll also see numbers as to why it looks like a dead project from
> > any reasonable outside perspective.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> <(617)%20529-4266>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

metasj
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales-5
To the initial thread:

Jimbo, Thanks for sharing this, and good luck with the project. Do you see
WikiTribune collaborating with De Correspondent and other
reader-collaborative news efforts? How are you thinking about the topic
selection, and work in various languages? Are you focusing more on
investigating the unknown, or clarifying messy current events where
'reliable sources' are dominated by rumor and propaganda?

SJ

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> all of you information about this new initiative early on.
>
> The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> "top down" in a way.
> (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
>
> This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> get it.
>
> While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> projects in
> the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
>
> You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> https://www.wikitribune.com
>
> Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> answer in bursts!)
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Andrea Zanni-2
Thanks for the reminder about that message, I had actually forgotten about
it.
-Andrew


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 4:23 AM, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Last time I remember we had a discussion¹ was September 2011 (!):
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-
> September/thread.html
>
> There are several threads worth revisiting:
> I was looking for an old-but-great Andrew Lih's post about Wikinews², and I
> re-discovered that a project had forkedfrom Wikinews in 2011³: it was
> called the http://theopenglobe.org, and (spoiler) it's now dead.
>
> Generally speaking, I think that Jimmy experimenting with another project
> speaks volume:
> and I do think it's a good idea.
>
> Simply put, we have a lot of zombie projects, and we¹ never had the will to
> do the tough decision
> of killing them... *or* really investing in them.
> At the moment, the actual policy with sister projects (all of them, minus
> Wikidata), is
> "don't ask don't tell".
>
> The communities do what they can, and what they cannot do they don't.
> There is no non-volunteer development, and even no knowledge about sister
> projects, both within the WMF and the rest of the movement. Wikipedians
> rarely go in sister projects.
>
> I really hope this Strategy process will be seen by the larger community as
> the right chance to discuss all this. A lot of strategy statements go into
> the direction "collect/provide all written and oral knowledge ever
> produced", which is more or less our vision, and this is why we thought to
> create non-encyclopedic projects in the first place (a image archive; a
> library; a dictionary; a quote compendium; etc.).
>
> It's probably time that we have this conversation.
>
> Aubrey
> (your friendly occasional Nemo)
> Wikisource Community User Group
>
>
> <http://theopenglobe.org>
> ¹ meaning, *we* that live on these mailing lists
> ² this:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-
> September/068381.html
> ³
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-
> September/068290.html
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Ariel Glenn WMF <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jimmy,
> >
> > The articles I've read on the new venture have been like appetizers,
> > providing just enough information to generate a new list of questions.
> :-)
> > So, in no particular order, here are some things that came to mind:
> >
> > Will the focus be investigative journalism, or "deep dives" in the manner
> > of newsdeeply.com, or breaking news, or something else?
> >
> > AIUI, fact-checking will be done by community volunteers in the
> > collaborative manner of Wikipedia; will they flag information that they
> > consider to be problematic, annotate draft news articles with comments
> and
> > questions, revise drafts themselves,...?
> >
> > The website shows an initial goal of ten journalists to be hired; does
> this
> > include copy editors as well?  And more generally, how will copy editing
> be
> > handled?
> >
> > With what frequency do you envision news to be published, e.g. a weekly
> > magazine, a daily feed of several short pieces and one feature article,
> > ...?
> >
> > Who will have access to journalists' notes and other raw materials?  How
> > will sources be protected while permitting maximum participation of
> > community volunteers in the vetting/fact-checking process?  Will there be
> > provision for leakers, i.e. some sort of SecureDrop thing?  If so, how
> will
> > that be handled?
> >
> > Will guides be produced around vetting of information, like e.g. the
> guide
> > at verificationhandbook.com?  More generally, how will community members
> > learn vetting and verification skills for journalism?
> >
> > How will good-faith disputes around fact-checking be resolved and by
> whom?
> > How will trolls be handled?
> >
> > Will Wikitribune journalists collaborate with other groups doing
> > like-minded work, for example bellingcat.com?
> >
> > I gather that there are developers working on this project too, at least
> on
> > wordpress hacking; are they also part of the crowdfunding?  More
> generally,
> > is budget/staffing information available or will it be soon?
> >
> > What roles will the four named advisors play in this project, with their
> > specific skillsets?
> >
> > In an ever shrinking paid market for journalism, where funding is harder
> > and harder to come by and many publications have closed their doors or
> > turned digital-only, what are your thoughts about competing in that
> market,
> > both as a job provider and potentially taking subscribers from other
> media?
> >
> > Please feel free to ramble on at length about these topics as much as you
> > like; I'm interested in the broader picture and not just the specific
> > details :-)
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> >
> > Ariel
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> > > to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> > > all of you information about this new initiative early on.
> > >
> > > The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> > > bringing together professional journalists and community contributors
> to
> > > produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> > > hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> > > right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> > > commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> > > active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> > > "top down" in a way.
> > > (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
> > >
> > > This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> > > vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> > > Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> > > get it.
> > >
> > > While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> > > alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> > > that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities
> can
> > > collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> > > learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> > > utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> > > projects in
> > > the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> > > professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
> > >
> > > You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> > > https://www.wikitribune.com
> > >
> > > Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> > > quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> > > answer in bursts!)
> > >
> > > --Jimbo
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikitribune!

Rogol Domedonfors
In reply to this post by Fæ
Jimmy

I support this suggestion.  The Wikitribune trademark is assigned to Jimmy
Group Ltd, a company in which all the shares are owned by you – it is a
conventional commercial operation of which you are the owner.  Its
activities directly overlap with one of the Foundations projects, Wikinews,
and with the news-gathering aspects of Wikipedia, which have been the
subject of much WMF publicity in recent months.  Consequently, it is in
direct competition with the Foundation for donor money and volunteer time.
It is simply untenable for you to be a trustee of the Foundation while you
are the owner and director of a competing commercial operation.

"Rogol"

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 4:19 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jimmy,
>
> Along with the public announcement to the press about Wikitribune, was
> the story that you had immediately resigned from The Guardian's board
> because the new company "will compete for staff, stories and
> donations".[1] Will you be resigning from the WMF board of trustees
> because the Wikitribune commercial venture is a conflict of loyalties?
>
> This seems like an issue that the revitalized Wikimedia Foundation
> Board Governance Committee should make an independent statement about,
> considering the unique nature of your permanent unelected seat as a
> WMF trustee?[2]
>
> For the record, it is worth noting that in February 2016,[3] your
> conflict of loyalties between being the successful owner of the Wikia
> commercial venture, and holding a permanent seat on the board of the
> Wikimedia Foundation was raised as a discussion topic on this list.
> Wikia has never been publicly declared by the WMF board as a possible
> conflict of interest, despite a history of staff migrating directly
> from WMF to Wikia, and the obvious reputational benefits to Wikia from
> having their owner sitting on the WMF board. In fact apart from
> denying the possibility that this was an issue with your statement "I
> have always declared, formally and in writing, my role at Wikia. I
> have additionally worked to make sure that all board members know
> about it, and I have on multiple occasions recused myself from votes
> where there could be a perceived or actual conflict of interest", you
> refused properly to engage further with discussing this potential
> conflict of loyalties in 2016, nor did you supply any evidence of a
> formal declaration apart from your email, nor has it ever been
> declared in the public minutes of WMF board meetings as an interest if
> you have recused from votes or strategic discussion at your meetings
> as a trustee; though SJ confirmed that he thought you had declared
> this as an interest in past board meetings, presumably this was
> mistakenly and unfortunately left out of the minutes each time it
> happened.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> Links:
> 1. "Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales exits Guardian board over
> conflict of interest with Wikitribune news site"
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/25/wikipedia-
> co-founder-jimmy-wales-exits-guardian-board-conflict/
> 2. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_
> Board_Governance_Committee
> 3. "Jimmy Wales' potential conflict of loyalties for Wikia Inc. versus
> WMF" https://lists.gt.net/wiki/foundation/685587
>
> On 25 April 2017 at 22:59, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Today I announced a new initiative, outside of my Wikimedia activities,
> > to combat fake news. It is important to me that I share directly with
> > all of you information about this new initiative early on.
> >
> > The new project  will use a wiki-style setup and experiment with
> > bringing together professional journalists and community contributors to
> > produce fact-checked, global news stories.  At launch, we'll be using a
> > hacked version of wordpress and we'll be evaluating whether that's the
> > right tool moving forward.  Wordpress has a lot to
> > commend it (free software, mature platform, used by lots of newsrooms,
> > active developer ecosystem) but also has some philosophy that's quite
> > "top down" in a way.
> > (Not many people would think in a wiki way when setting up a newsroom!)
> >
> > This new initiative, Wikitribune, will be a learning experience - my
> > vision is one that I've had a hard time explaining... except to
> > Wikimedians who tend to immediately
> > get it.
> >
> > While I am launching this project independent from Wikipedia and the
> > Wikimedia Foundation, it is my plan that this new project will work
> > alongside Wikimedia in the free knowledge movement. For example, I hope
> > that the numerous Wikinews/Wikinoticias/Wikinotizie/etc. communities can
> > collaborate with the  Wikitribune community in way that allows both to
> > learn and benefit from each other. Additionally, Wikitribune will
> > utilize the same Creative Commons license (CC-BY) as other free content
> > projects in
> > the news space - so they can take the stories written by our
> > professional journalists and communities and make use of them.
> >
> > You can find out more information about Wikitribune at:
> > https://www.wikitribune.com
> >
> > Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer questions!  (But I'm
> > quite swamped with everything at the moment so please forgive me if I
> > answer in bursts!)
> >
> > --Jimbo
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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