[Wikimedia-l] Women in red

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[Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gnangarra
I cant believe this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/The_World_Contest
has
got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
community.

I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2

While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.

​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​

--
G
nangarra
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
When you read the article you link to, it is explicitly about
destubification and not about new stubs.

Given this intend, I do not see it as a problem. Actually I do not mind
more women entries in Wikidata.. But hey, that is my thing :_
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 15 October 2017 at 16:02, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cant believe this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> in_Red/The_World_Contest
> has
> got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> community.
>
> I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
> process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
>
> While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.
>
> ​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​
>
> --
> G
> nangarra
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

jmh649
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
Correction:

There is a tool that automatically checks for copyright infringement.
It is called CopyPatrol

https://tools.wmflabs.org/copypatrol/en

James

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cant believe this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/The_World_Contest
> has
> got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> community.
>
> I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
> process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
>
> While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.
>
> we are 15 days from this disaster commencing
>
> --
> G
> nangarra
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Keegan Peterzell
"The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing to
write about here."

That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject is
anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
subjects.


This looks like a wondeful initiative, not a disaster.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

James Salsman-2
There are still over 2,700 known notable women scientists without stubs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/Missing_articles_by_occupation/Scientists

And those are just the women scientists who made it on to Wikidata but
not Wiktionary somehow. The old ISI/Thompson Reuters Web of Science
list was a lot longer. I don't think 100,000 stubs is an unreasonable
number.


On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
> articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing to
> write about here."
>
> That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject is
> anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
> subjects.
>
>
> This looks like a wondeful initiative, not a disaster.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cant believe this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> in_Red/The_World_Contest
> has
> got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> community.
>
> I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
> process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
>
> While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.
>
> ​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​
>

​Here's another unsolicited thought:

Instead of complaining and writing seemingly sexist screeds about attempts
to broaden the breadth of knowledge within Wikipedia, why don't you help?

I'm sure copyediting, referencing, infoboxes, and all the other general
wiki work will need some assistance.​ You have years of experience editing
the wikis. Seems like a win/win.


--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Todd Allen
Keegan, calling people names isn't helpful here.

We've already had horrible projects to write tons of stubs before, like the
"place" bots. And in those cases, we'd know at least roughly what they
would do and how.

This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing 118
editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation (which is
generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach that
goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need to
review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
realistic numbers.

Add into that financial incentives for being the most prolific, and we're
setting up for a very foreseeable disaster.

I have no problems with editing initiatives focused on underrepresented
areas. But they need to have realistic goals, numbers actually run during
planning, and most importantly, no financial rewards. This project is not a
good idea.

Todd

On Oct 15, 2017 11:53 AM, "Keegan Peterzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I cant believe this
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> > in_Red/The_World_Contest
> > has
> > got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> > english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> > community.
> >
> > I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> > contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> > was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for
> Creation
> > process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> > competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
> >
> > While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> > no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> > notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> > the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be
> created.
> >
> > ​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​
> >
>
> ​Here's another unsolicited thought:
>
> Instead of complaining and writing seemingly sexist screeds about attempts
> to broaden the breadth of knowledge within Wikipedia, why don't you help?
>
> I'm sure copyediting, referencing, infoboxes, and all the other general
> wiki work will need some assistance.​ You have years of experience editing
> the wikis. Seems like a win/win.
>
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Keegan Peterzell
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Keegan, calling people names isn't helpful here.
>
>
​I didn't. I'm calling out the tone.


> We've already had horrible projects to write tons of stubs before, like the
> "place" bots. And in those cases, we'd know at least roughly what they
> would do and how.
>

​Yes, the horrible place bots like User:Rambot on the English Wikipedia.
The bot started almost every place stub in the United States, and almost
every one of those seeds has generated a more fully formed article.


>
> This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing 118
> editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation (which is
> generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach that
> goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need to
> review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
> realistic numbers.
>
> Add into that financial incentives for being the most prolific, and we're
> setting up for a very foreseeable disaster.
>

​Risk management is one thing. A foreseeable disaster is quite another.
Overblown hyperbole.


>
> I have no problems with editing initiatives focused on underrepresented
> areas. But they need to have realistic goals, numbers actually run during
> planning, and most importantly, no financial rewards. This project is not a
> good idea.
>

​Mmmhmm, and who should be the ones to set the goals? The ones that "know
better"?

I'd advise you all who'd like to tell people what they're doing wrong,
instead focus on helping people to do things right.

Otherwise, this is just patronizing.​

--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Keegan Peterzell
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Keegan, calling people names isn't helpful here.
>>
>>
> ​I didn't. I'm calling out the tone.
> ​
>
>> We've already had horrible projects to write tons of stubs before, like
>> the
>> "place" bots. And in those cases, we'd know at least roughly what they
>> would do and how.
>>
>
> ​Yes, the horrible place bots like User:Rambot on the English Wikipedia.
> The bot started almost every place stub in the United States, and almost
> every one of those seeds has generated a more fully formed article.
>

​Sorry, I misquoted. "Horrible projects" is actually worse.

--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
Have you looked at the list of signed up contributors?
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gnangarra
Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2017 4:03 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

I cant believe this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/The_World_Contest
has
got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the community.

I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2

While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000 the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.

​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​

--
G
nangarra
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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Anders Wennersten-2
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
WMSE has run programs with this focus for more then 3 years on svwp.

The result have been roughly
2-3 generated more then 1000 articles
15-25 generated more then 100 articles
100-200 more then 10 articles
around 500 at least one
giving a total of a bit more the 10000 new articles of women. And even
being a bit on the short side, there is nothing wrong in them or to be
ashamed of. (and many fascinating stories can be fund among them)

Enwp has 30 times as many editors than svwp. so I see nothing
unrealistic with a goals of 100000 new articles, but perhaps it could
take somewhat longer then anticipated
Anders


Den 2017-10-15 kl. 16:02, skrev Gnangarra:

> I cant believe this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/The_World_Contest
> has
> got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> community.
>
> I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
> process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
>
> While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.
>
> ​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​
>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gergő Tisza
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cant believe this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> in_Red/The_World_Contest
> has got WMF funding, the idea of trying to create 100,000 stub articles on
> english wikipedia without any thought to how it'll impact on the
> community.
>
> I find it ironic that a competition is being funded to encourage current
> contributors to do what we wont accept from new editors.  If a new editor
> was to create an article it wouldnt pass through the Articles for Creation
> process because its half the size of the minimum set there. Many of the
> competition articles will just get tagged CSD - A1, A7, A9 even G2
>
> While there is a nice bot that will count the size of the prose, there is
> no automated process for checking copyright violations, checking for
> notability and most importantly checking for BLP with the aim of 100,000
> the community will years to clean up the mess that is about to be created.
>
> ​we are 15 days from this disaster commencing​
>

Women in Red has been doing similar projects on a smaller scale for quite a
while now. If you think this current one will turn out much worse, at a
minimum you should be able to explain how it is different from those.

Anyhow, this contest has been in the works for almost a year and will start
in two weeks. The supporting grant was given half a year ago, after public
review. If there ever was a time when organizers should have taken vague
prophecies of doom into account, it has surely long passed. At this point
all you can achieve is creating a hostile atmosphere for the contest
(especially if you continue using emotionally charged words like "disaster"
or "mess"); please don't push that. If you have constructive advice on how
the ill effects you are worried about can be avoided without putting undue
burden on the organizers or preventing them to run the contest effectively,
focus on that. Otherwise, it's probably best to refrain from discussion for
now.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gergő Tisza
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
> articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing to
> write about here."
>
> That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject is
> anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
> subjects.


Please avoid personal attacks based on hidden motivations you assume other
parties to have; it's contrary to the Wikimedia movement's social best
practices [1] and bound to take discussions in unproductive directions.
When criticizing what someone said, stick to what they actually said.
Especially so if your accusation of bad faith would be essentially
content-free.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by Todd Allen
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing 118
> editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation (which is
> generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach that
> goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need to
> review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
> realistic numbers.
>

Come on. Did you even read the page you are talking about? Clearly you are
confusing it with the 100,000 Challange [1] which starts at the same time
but is a much larger project (the project page mentions a two-year
timeframe).


[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/The_100,000_Challenge
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Keegan Peterzell
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Keegan, calling people names isn't helpful here.
> >
> >
> ​I didn't. I'm calling out the tone.
> ​
>

I care if someone's right or wrong, not their tone. If we want to talk
about that, we certainly could discuss calling someone "sexist" when
they're calling attention to a potential problem, but I really don't care
much about that either. The point is whether this is a good, well-conceived
idea.


>
> > We've already had horrible projects to write tons of stubs before, like
> the
> > "place" bots. And in those cases, we'd know at least roughly what they
> > would do and how.
> >
>
> ​Yes, the horrible place bots like User:Rambot on the English Wikipedia.
> The bot started almost every place stub in the United States, and almost
> every one of those seeds has generated a more fully formed article.
> ​
>

And would've anyway. It's not like editing them would have been forbidden
if they'd been redlinked until someone was ready to work on it. Every
article started out as a redlink. But we're probably a bit off topic with
that here.


>
> >
> > This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing 118
> > editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation (which
> is
> > generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach
> that
> > goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need
> to
> > review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
> > realistic numbers.
> >
> > Add into that financial incentives for being the most prolific, and we're
> > setting up for a very foreseeable disaster.
> >
>
> ​Risk management is one thing. A foreseeable disaster is quite another.
> Overblown hyperbole.
> ​
>

Call it "risk management" or whatever you want, but those numbers are
unrealistic by orders of magnitude. Now, that in itself wouldn't be a
substantial concern, but then you've got the issue of offering money to hit
them. That's absolutely a recipe for disaster, and many years of experience
both on Wikipedia and otherwise would tell me that. Offering money for just
being prolific, quantity over quality, is absolutely a bad idea.


>
> >
> > I have no problems with editing initiatives focused on underrepresented
> > areas. But they need to have realistic goals, numbers actually run during
> > planning, and most importantly, no financial rewards. This project is
> not a
> > good idea.
> >
>
> ​Mmmhmm, and who should be the ones to set the goals? The ones that "know
> better"?
>

People can set whatever goals they want. But what they're proposing to do
affects the entire project, not just their corner of it, so everyone on the
project should be involved in that. That absolutely includes people who
have been around the block more than a few times. There's a reason we shut
down the "reward board" type systems,


>
> I'd advise you all who'd like to tell people what they're doing wrong,
> instead focus on helping people to do things right.
>
> Otherwise, this is just patronizing.​
>

You start toward fixing a problem by saying it is a problem. After that,
you decide what should be done about it. And I did offer suggestions, thank
you, that being, choose realistic numbers and keep money out of the
equation. Money, like it or not, is a powerful motivator, and to some it's
a motivator to cut corners, like using poor sources or plagiarizing. I'm
not saying any individual editor would do that, mind you, but I'm saying it
is part of what we know about human behavior. Even relatively trivial
amounts of money can have substantial impacts on people's behavior; I'd be
happy to find you the sources for that if you'd like to see them.

Todd
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Gergo Tisza
If I misread that part, my apologies. That still doesn't change the core
issue, that money is being offered, and that it's being offered for
quantity rather than quality.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Gergo Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing 118
> > editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation (which
> is
> > generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach
> that
> > goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need
> to
> > review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
> > realistic numbers.
> >
>
> Come on. Did you even read the page you are talking about? Clearly you are
> confusing it with the 100,000 Challange [1] which starts at the same time
> but is a much larger project (the project page mentions a two-year
> timeframe).
>
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> in_Red/The_100,000_Challenge
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Sydney Poore
Nah, the contest is about motivating people to write about a topic area
that is not there normal bailiwick.

That is fine thing to do because the unintended consequences of being
written on a wiki, English Wikipedia initially attracted people who were
less interested in writing about women than the general population in
English speaking world. So, we are still playing catch up to get the low
hanging fruit from Women's Halls of Fame and other books that specialize in
collecting biographies of notable people and their works.

I'm thrilled to see this contest promote writing about notable women from
around the world so the goal of 20% is reached faster.

Sydney
User:FloNight



Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
Co-founder Kentucky Wikimedians,
Co-founder WikiWomen User Group,
Co-founder WikiConference North America
Board member of Wiki Project Med Foundation






On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If I misread that part, my apologies. That still doesn't change the core
> issue, that money is being offered, and that it's being offered for
> quantity rather than quality.
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Gergo Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > This project is going for 100k articles. There are as of this writing
> 118
> > > editors signed up. That is, even if we presume 100% participation
> (which
> > is
> > > generally wildly optimistic), nearly 1000 articles per editor to reach
> > that
> > > goal. If somehow that does happen, there are four judges who would need
> > to
> > > review, if the goal is reached, 25000 articles each. Those are not
> > > realistic numbers.
> > >
> >
> > Come on. Did you even read the page you are talking about? Clearly you
> are
> > confusing it with the 100,000 Challange [1] which starts at the same time
> > but is a much larger project (the project page mentions a two-year
> > timeframe).
> >
> >
> > [1]
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_
> > in_Red/The_100,000_Challenge
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Gergő Tisza
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Gergő Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
> > articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing to
> > write about here."
> >
> > That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject is
> > anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
> > subjects.
>
>
> Please avoid personal attacks based on hidden motivations you assume other
> parties to have; it's contrary to the Wikimedia movement's social best
> practices [1] and bound to take discussions in unproductive directions.
> When criticizing what someone said, stick to what they actually said.
> Especially so if your accusation of bad faith would be essentially
> content-free.


​Todd, Gnangarra, Gergő,

My intention, as I touched on earlier, was not to make a personal attack
but to address the tone in which I perceived the email to be written. I
don't believe Gnangarra is actually sexist. I certainly stand by my
position that the content of the initial post is unhelpful criticism and
mostly hyperbole, but I'm more than willing to apologize if my language
came across as a personal attack. I could have written it differently. So,
sorry about that.



--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

Gnangarra
No worries Keegan I read it as sarcastic, given the amount of noise on here
I chose my tone intentionally to draw attention to the competition, yes it
looks like a wonderful idea until to look at the mechanics of comeptition
given it has a start time in 2 weeks, people are being encourage to start
now in sandboxes, its being advertised on banners yet it has very obvious
under lying issues

   - unrealistic targets
   - quantity not quality
   - an expectation that competitors are required to do half of what is
   expected from new editors , we should hold ourselves and expect of higher
   standards than that we expect from new comers
   - no methodology for notability. blp, copyright issues arent weeded out
   during the event or judging
   - judging is done by a bot just doing a count

To win this event all you need is a list, a script, and reliable internet
connection, despite having so many signed up well experience good editors
on the list.   <sarcasm> Sadly one person using a Wikidata script to create
articles could be the winner,  just imagine the unimaginable
frankenstienian horror that would create </sarcasm>

Any competition that relies on numbers alone is fraught with danger, the
big international events  all succeed not because of numbers but because of
large teams(this run by one person alone) focused on quality with the whole
processes divided into manageable opt-in regional sections.  All the
initiatives to focus on under represented topics need to be careful few
thousands of poor quality stubs about women is more harmful than having
nothing as people will perceive Wikipedia to be paying lip service to women.




On 16 October 2017 at 07:18, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Gergő Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
> > > articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing
> to
> > > write about here."
> > >
> > > That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject
> is
> > > anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
> > > subjects.
> >
> >
> > Please avoid personal attacks based on hidden motivations you assume
> other
> > parties to have; it's contrary to the Wikimedia movement's social best
> > practices [1] and bound to take discussions in unproductive directions.
> > When criticizing what someone said, stick to what they actually said.
> > Especially so if your accusation of bad faith would be essentially
> > content-free.
>
>
> ​Todd, Gnangarra, Gergő,
>
> My intention, as I touched on earlier, was not to make a personal attack
> but to address the tone in which I perceived the email to be written. I
> don't believe Gnangarra is actually sexist. I certainly stand by my
> position that the content of the initial post is unhelpful criticism and
> mostly hyperbole, but I'm more than willing to apologize if my language
> came across as a personal attack. I could have written it differently. So,
> sorry about that.
>
>
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Women in red

GorillaWarfare
Emily (User:Keilana) is having some trouble getting mails through to this
list, so I'm forwarding this on her behalf in case it's an issue with her
email address.

"This is some sexist bullshit. You really think we can't handle some stubs?
And do you really, really think that people won't try to AFD everything
that comes out of this contest as it is?

I'm sick and tired of this idea that we have to hold shit about women to a
higher standard than literally anything else. The encyclopedia isn't going
to break because, god forbid, some inexperienced newbies write a bunch of
stubs.

And so what if people think we're paying lip service to women? It's better
than being seen as being actively hostile to women, which, as I shouldn't
have to remind you, is our reputation as it currently stands."

– Molly (GorillaWarfare)

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No worries Keegan I read it as sarcastic, given the amount of noise on here
> I chose my tone intentionally to draw attention to the competition, yes it
> looks like a wonderful idea until to look at the mechanics of comeptition
> given it has a start time in 2 weeks, people are being encourage to start
> now in sandboxes, its being advertised on banners yet it has very obvious
> under lying issues
>
>    - unrealistic targets
>    - quantity not quality
>    - an expectation that competitors are required to do half of what is
>    expected from new editors , we should hold ourselves and expect of
> higher
>    standards than that we expect from new comers
>    - no methodology for notability. blp, copyright issues arent weeded out
>    during the event or judging
>    - judging is done by a bot just doing a count
>
> To win this event all you need is a list, a script, and reliable internet
> connection, despite having so many signed up well experience good editors
> on the list.   <sarcasm> Sadly one person using a Wikidata script to create
> articles could be the winner,  just imagine the unimaginable
> frankenstienian horror that would create </sarcasm>
>
> Any competition that relies on numbers alone is fraught with danger, the
> big international events  all succeed not because of numbers but because of
> large teams(this run by one person alone) focused on quality with the whole
> processes divided into manageable opt-in regional sections.  All the
> initiatives to focus on under represented topics need to be careful few
> thousands of poor quality stubs about women is more harmful than having
> nothing as people will perceive Wikipedia to be paying lip service to
> women.
>
>
>
>
> On 16 October 2017 at 07:18, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Gergő Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Keegan Peterzell <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "The nerve of these women, to think that they can write encyclopedia
> > > > articles on women who must inherently be non-notable! There's nothing
> > to
> > > > write about here."
> > > >
> > > > That's basically what your email says. No complaints when the subject
> > is
> > > > anything else from you, when these thematic editing are held on other
> > > > subjects.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please avoid personal attacks based on hidden motivations you assume
> > other
> > > parties to have; it's contrary to the Wikimedia movement's social best
> > > practices [1] and bound to take discussions in unproductive directions.
> > > When criticizing what someone said, stick to what they actually said.
> > > Especially so if your accusation of bad faith would be essentially
> > > content-free.
> >
> >
> > ​Todd, Gnangarra, Gergő,
> >
> > My intention, as I touched on earlier, was not to make a personal attack
> > but to address the tone in which I perceived the email to be written. I
> > don't believe Gnangarra is actually sexist. I certainly stand by my
> > position that the content of the initial post is unhelpful criticism and
> > mostly hyperbole, but I'm more than willing to apologize if my language
> > came across as a personal attack. I could have written it differently.
> So,
> > sorry about that.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ~Keegan
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> >
> > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> address
> > is in a personal capacity.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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123