[Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

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[Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Jeevan Jose
Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah

Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.

It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth

This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only Fir;
not all people edited that "file" page.

I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN too
by Stefan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review

I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.

Regards,
Jee
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Mark
On 8/24/14, 7:03 PM, Jeevan Jose wrote:

> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>
> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>
> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>
> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only Fir;
> not all people edited that "file" page.
>
> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN too
> by Stefan:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review

Fwiw, a new PDF exporter is being tested, and looks like it'll be
deployed soon: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/PDF_rendering

It might be worth checking (I have not) what attribution is done in the
new exporter. If it's better, then the right fix would be to just deploy
the new exporter ASAP.

Best,
Mark


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by Jeevan Jose
Hmm, that file seems to be released under a non-commercial Creative Commons license, in addition to the GFDL. The bug here seems to be bad licensing, rather than bad attribution (since when did we start accepting -NC licenses?!).

Thanks,
Mike

On 24 Aug 2014, at 18:03, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>
> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>
> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>
> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only Fir;
> not all people edited that "file" page.
>
> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN too
> by Stefan:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
>
> I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.
>
> Regards,
> Jee
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Mike Peel
I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial reuse. Problem solved?

Thanks,
Mike

On 24 Aug 2014, at 19:55, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hmm, that file seems to be released under a non-commercial Creative Commons license, in addition to the GFDL. The bug here seems to be bad licensing, rather than bad attribution (since when did we start accepting -NC licenses?!).
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 24 Aug 2014, at 18:03, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>>
>> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>>
>> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
>> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>>
>> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only Fir;
>> not all people edited that "file" page.
>>
>> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN too
>> by Stefan:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
>>
>> I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jee
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Pete Forsyth-2
Mike --

Did you see the recent discussion about this at [[Talk:Cheetah]]?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheetah#Lead_photo_license

Although Erik Moeller recommended in 2008 (with the move to Creative
Commons licenses) that we stop permitting new uploads of files on the basis
of a GFDL license, as far as I can tell, that recommendation was never
adopted in any policy, so it's still possible to upload GFDL files. (The
fact that this file happens to also have a CC B
Y-NC-SA license is not the basis of any WM decision -- it just happens the
photographer also permits that license.) I've confirmed by private email
correspondence that this photographer is clear about the licenses he does
and doesn't want to use.

Seems like a loophole worth closing.
Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]


On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial
> reuse. Problem solved?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 24 Aug 2014, at 19:55, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, that file seems to be released under a non-commercial Creative
> Commons license, in addition to the GFDL. The bug here seems to be bad
> licensing, rather than bad attribution (since when did we start accepting
> -NC licenses?!).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > On 24 Aug 2014, at 18:03, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
> >>
> >> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
> >>
> >> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
> >> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
> >>
> >> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only
> Fir;
> >> not all people edited that "file" page.
> >>
> >> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN
> too
> >> by Stefan:
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
> >>
> >> I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jee
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Pete Forsyth-2
I don't mean to divert this thread into a discussion of the GFDL loophole,
though -- Jeevan's original question about PDF output is a good one, it's
important that all WM software honor attribution requirements (and,
ideally, non legally-binding wishes) appropriately.

Pete


On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Mike --
>
> Did you see the recent discussion about this at [[Talk:Cheetah]]?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheetah#Lead_photo_license
>
> Although Erik Moeller recommended in 2008 (with the move to Creative
> Commons licenses) that we stop permitting new uploads of files on the basis
> of a GFDL license, as far as I can tell, that recommendation was never
> adopted in any policy, so it's still possible to upload GFDL files. (The
> fact that this file happens to also have a CC B
> Y-NC-SA license is not the basis of any WM decision -- it just happens the
> photographer also permits that license.) I've confirmed by private email
> correspondence that this photographer is clear about the licenses he does
> and doesn't want to use.
>
> Seems like a loophole worth closing.
> Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial
>> reuse. Problem solved?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 24 Aug 2014, at 19:55, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hmm, that file seems to be released under a non-commercial Creative
>> Commons license, in addition to the GFDL. The bug here seems to be bad
>> licensing, rather than bad attribution (since when did we start accepting
>> -NC licenses?!).
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > On 24 Aug 2014, at 18:03, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>> >>
>> >> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>> >>
>> >> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
>> >> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>> >>
>> >> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only
>> Fir;
>> >> not all people edited that "file" page.
>> >>
>> >> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN
>> too
>> >> by Stefan:
>> >>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
>> >>
>> >> I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Jee
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Russavia
In reply to this post by Mike Peel
Mike et al

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial
> reuse. Problem solved?
>

GFDL is a free licence. You can licence under the free GFDL licence and
also licence it under an -NC licence. So long as one licence is free on
Commons, you can have other combinations.

But the problem isn't solved.

I have numerous aviation photographers and friends who have licenced their
works under GFDL -- many of which are irreplaceable, or are the best
illustration of the subject. Examples being:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abramovich_Chukotka.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Singapore_Airlines_Airbus_A380_woah%21.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Singapore_Airlines_Airbus_A380_Wallner.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Myanmar_Air_Force_Shaanxi_Y-8_MRD.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAAF_Xian_HY-6_Li_Pang.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WinAir_De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6-300_Twin_Otter_Breidenstein.jpg

and the list goes on.

If there is an issue with how the PDFs are presenting the licencing
information, this is still very much an issue, and if it isn't working as
it should at this moment, the PDF feature should be switched off.

Cheers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by Pete Forsyth-2
Hey Pete,

Thanks for pointing me towards that discussion - I hadn't spotted it, and I've replied (and apologised for not noticing it) accordingly.

This is definitely a loop worth closing, as it's a right pain to deal with when working with derivative images of Wikipedia page screenshots. For a practical example, see:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Multimedia_Project_-_Wikimedia_Foundation

I can kinda understand why the software doesn't deal with messed-up situations like this - it shouldn't need to do so in the first place. I hope that we as a community can fix this by sensible licensing choices, rather than blaming the software.

Thanks,
Mike

On 24 Aug 2014, at 20:21, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mike --
>
> Did you see the recent discussion about this at [[Talk:Cheetah]]?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cheetah#Lead_photo_license
>
> Although Erik Moeller recommended in 2008 (with the move to Creative
> Commons licenses) that we stop permitting new uploads of files on the basis
> of a GFDL license, as far as I can tell, that recommendation was never
> adopted in any policy, so it's still possible to upload GFDL files. (The
> fact that this file happens to also have a CC B
> Y-NC-SA license is not the basis of any WM decision -- it just happens the
> photographer also permits that license.) I've confirmed by private email
> correspondence that this photographer is clear about the licenses he does
> and doesn't want to use.
>
> Seems like a loophole worth closing.
> Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial
>> reuse. Problem solved?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 24 Aug 2014, at 19:55, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm, that file seems to be released under a non-commercial Creative
>> Commons license, in addition to the GFDL. The bug here seems to be bad
>> licensing, rather than bad attribution (since when did we start accepting
>> -NC licenses?!).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 24 Aug 2014, at 18:03, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>>>>
>>>> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>>>>
>>>> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
>>>> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>>>>
>>>> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only
>> Fir;
>>>> not all people edited that "file" page.
>>>>
>>>> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN
>> too
>>>> by Stefan:
>>>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a serious violation and need immediate attention.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jee
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Mark
On 8/24/14, 9:34 PM, Michael Peel wrote:
> I can kinda understand why the software doesn't deal with messed-up situations like this - it shouldn't need to do so in the first place. I hope that we as a community can fix this by sensible licensing choices, rather than blaming the software.

I don't think the GFDL question and the software question are really the
same. The software should attribute people better than it does, and IMO
it still does not do it properly with the new image you swapped in. All
the (current) PDF-generator does is append a list of the usernames of
people who've edited the image's description page. This is not really
good attribution: 1) it does not actually mention the license; 2) it
fails to actually identify the author of the image (vs. people who've
done other things like added a category link to the image's description
page); and 3) it does not attribute photographers with their real name,
even when known.

Absent non-cc-licensed GFDL images, doing that may not be *legally*
required, but I think it's good practice and friendlier to do so.

-Mark


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Jean-Frédéric
In reply to this post by Mike Peel
Hi,

This is definitely a loop worth closing


This is mentionned in the Talk page discussion, but for the benefits of all
list readers who might not check it out :):
please see
<
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/AppropriatelyLicensed
>

--
Jean-Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Jeevan Jose
Thanks Mark for pointing me to the new PDF exporter; hope it will improve
the accuracy of data gathering from file pages.

BTW, I improved the file page [1], and now contributor is attributing
properly [2]. But it still failed to fetch the license. So my understanding
is that the current script is trying to fetch information from author and
license fields. If that attempt fails, it simply lists the editors of the
file page which is wrong.

As Mark mentioned above, this is not a GFDL issue. We need to improve our
software in both sides; at the Commons page where data is collected, and at
tools which gather the data available there. Hope developers at both side
([3], [4]) will consider this.

1.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg&action=history
2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Cheetah
(export pdf)
3. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/PDF_rendering
4. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data

Regards,
Jee


On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Jean-Frédéric <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This is definitely a loop worth closing
>
>
> This is mentionned in the Talk page discussion, but for the benefits of all
> list readers who might not check it out :):
> please see
> <
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/AppropriatelyLicensed
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Mark
On 25 August 2014 03:57, Mark <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/24/14, 7:03 PM, Jeevan Jose wrote:
>
>> Try to "download as PDF" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah
>>
>> Check Image Sources, Licenses and Contributors.
>>
>> It attributes File:Cheetah Feb09 02.jpg Source:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Cheetah_Feb09_02.jpg
>> License: unknown Contributors: Fir0002, Peteforsyth
>>
>> This is very wrong as license is not fetched  and photographer is only
>> Fir;
>> not all people edited that "file" page.
>>
>> I raised this complaint earlier (in Commons). This is mentioned at EN too
>> by Stefan:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Copying_within_
>> Wikipedia#For_legal_team_review
>>
>
> Fwiw, a new PDF exporter is being tested, and looks like it'll be deployed
> soon: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/PDF_rendering
>
> It might be worth checking (I have not) what attribution is done in the
> new exporter. If it's better, then the right fix would be to just deploy
> the new exporter ASAP.
>
> Best,
> Mark


I don't know, it seems to me that deploying new software ASAP before it has
been exhaustively tested by the end user base has caused a few headaches
lately ;-).

Cheers,
Craig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Jeevan Jose
>
> I don't know, it seems to me that deploying new software ASAP before it has
> been exhaustively tested by the end user base has caused a few headaches
> lately ;-).
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
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Just disable the "Download as PDF" and  "Create a book" options till
testing is over. Even CC 4.0 licenses require any license violation must be
fixed within 30 days. :)

Jee
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wrong attribution in PDF output of Wikipedia atricles

Jeevan Jose
In reply to this post by Russavia
I tried to make the PDF of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6_Twin_Otter

It credits "File:WinAir De Havilland Canada DHC-6-300 Twin Otter
Breidenstein.jpg  Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:WinAir_De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6-300_Twin_Otter_Breidenstein.jpg
 License: unknown  Contributors: Timo Breidenstein"

License is still "unknown"

Regards,
Jee


On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Russavia <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Mike et al
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I've swapped it for a CC-licensed file that does allow for commercial
> > reuse. Problem solved?
> >
>
> GFDL is a free licence. You can licence under the free GFDL licence and
> also licence it under an -NC licence. So long as one licence is free on
> Commons, you can have other combinations.
>
> But the problem isn't solved.
>
> I have numerous aviation photographers and friends who have licenced their
> works under GFDL -- many of which are irreplaceable, or are the best
> illustration of the subject. Examples being:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abramovich_Chukotka.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Singapore_Airlines_Airbus_A380_woah%21.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Singapore_Airlines_Airbus_A380_Wallner.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Myanmar_Air_Force_Shaanxi_Y-8_MRD.jpg
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAAF_Xian_HY-6_Li_Pang.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WinAir_De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6-300_Twin_Otter_Breidenstein.jpg
>
> and the list goes on.
>
> If there is an issue with how the PDFs are presenting the licencing
> information, this is still very much an issue, and if it isn't working as
> it should at this moment, the PDF feature should be switched off.
>
> Cheers
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