[Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Marc-Andre
On 03/07/2012 7:49 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> We could call it "Wikinews".

Arguably, that was the intent behind that project in the first place.

That said, the news article format (as opposed to living prose) is
demonstrably not what the readers want - they already voted with their
browsers there.  And shuffling off to a different project (as opposed to
another namespace on the same project) has logistical problems that are
hard to overcome - and you want to be sharing infrastructure, rules,
editors, et al.

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 4 July 2012 00:49, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 July 2012 00:48, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > There's nothing that prevents a subject from having an article in both
> > namespaces.  One can be seen as the complement of the other; mainspace
> would
> > become more encyclopedic and there would be a neat space where the more
> > recent coverage can be found for further information.
>
>
> We could call it "Wikinews".
>
>
>
God-dammit, that's my line.

;)

Tom
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:49 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 July 2012 00:48, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > There's nothing that prevents a subject from having an article in both
> > namespaces.  One can be seen as the complement of the other; mainspace
> would
> > become more encyclopedic and there would be a neat space where the more
> > recent coverage can be found for further information.
>
>
> We could call it "Wikinews".
>


Wikinews is story-based, rather than subject-based. It was never intended
to have just a single article on each subject. So this would be a complete
re-purposing of Wikinews (which might not be a bad idea).
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

metasj
In reply to this post by Marc-Andre
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There's nothing that prevents a subject from having an article in both
> namespaces.  One can be seen as the complement of the other; mainspace would
> become more encyclopedic and there would be a neat space where the more
> recent coverage can be found for further information.
>
> It'd only be a matter of educating editors and readers; the mainspace is the
> most reliable and seriously sourced "base" of articles, at the cost of being
> possibly a bit dated or drier.  The space "below the fold" is more timely,
> and possibly more detailed at the cost of being possibly less reliable.

This is a good idea, and you can take it further, as suggested in the
past:  we need a space in which one can draft verifiable articles
about any topic, without arguments about notability.

Just as Wikipedia was a 'simple, unreliable scratch space' to let
everyone draft articles for nupedia, we need the same sort of space to
let everyone draft articles for [what we currently think of as]
wikipedia.

SJ

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

The Cunctator
In reply to this post by Tarc Meridian
I love it when individuals decide that they know what is important and
worthy of inclusion, as opposed to the mindless masses. Because that's such
a healthy way to ensure an open, neutral, and comprehensive encyclopedia.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Tarc Meridian <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think that is a very dismissive misreading of the discussion.
>
> Some people have it in their heads that "appears in reliable sources
> equates to article-worthiness", but the problem here is that the doings of
> celebrities is covered in excruciating detial by the media, including what
> tey eat, the clothes they wear, and so on.  Same for some politicians, such
> as every Thanksgiving some poor sod gets to stand outside the White House
> gate and breathlessly report what is on the President's table, or at XMas
> the reports of what the First Family bought each other.  Reliably sourced?
>  Yes.  Encyclopedic worthiness of "White House Thanksgiving 2009 Dinner
> Table" ?  None at all.
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:02:46 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!
> >
> > On Tuesday, 3 July 2012 at 10:15, Svip wrote:
> > > I can't believe _I_ am not the ultimate ruler on what is valuable
> > > enough to get on Wikipedia. It seems most of the delete comments on
> > > the Justin Bieber article are mostly people who dislike Justin Bieber.
> > >
> > > Surely Lady Gaga on Twitter[3] should be deleted as well? Or perhaps
> > > that is different, because they like Lady Gaga more than they like
> > > Justin Bieber.
> > >
> > > [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Gaga_on_Twitter
> >
> > To be fair, 'Ashton Kutcher on Twitter' is also up for deletion too. In
> both the Kutcher and Bieber case, there's a lot of "I don't like it,
> therefore it can't be notable!"
> >
> > I just cannot see any legitimate argument for deletion being presented.
> They all basically boil down to "don't like it!"
> >
> > --
> > Tom Morris
> > <http://tommorris.org/>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

The Cunctator
In reply to this post by metasj
Just think, in a few years we can set up the site to construct drafts for
the site that constructs drafts for Wikipedia.



On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > There's nothing that prevents a subject from having an article in both
> > namespaces.  One can be seen as the complement of the other; mainspace
> would
> > become more encyclopedic and there would be a neat space where the more
> > recent coverage can be found for further information.
> >
> > It'd only be a matter of educating editors and readers; the mainspace is
> the
> > most reliable and seriously sourced "base" of articles, at the cost of
> being
> > possibly a bit dated or drier.  The space "below the fold" is more
> timely,
> > and possibly more detailed at the cost of being possibly less reliable.
>
> This is a good idea, and you can take it further, as suggested in the
> past:  we need a space in which one can draft verifiable articles
> about any topic, without arguments about notability.
>
> Just as Wikipedia was a 'simple, unreliable scratch space' to let
> everyone draft articles for nupedia, we need the same sort of space to
> let everyone draft articles for [what we currently think of as]
> wikipedia.
>
> SJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Mark
In reply to this post by Andreas Kolbe-2
On 7/4/12 1:04 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:

> What would a Wikipedia look like that did not make use of press sources? It
> would look a hell of a lot more like an encyclopedia. Thousands of silly
> arguments would never arise. Thousands of apposite criticisms of Wikipedia
> would never arise. These are good things.
>
> Unfortunately, such a Wikipedia would also have vastly impoverished
> coverage of popular culture and current affairs. The articles on Lady Gaga
> and Barack Obama would be years behind events; the articles on the Japan
> earthquakes, which I believe Wikipedia was widely praised for, would only
> now begin to be written, articles on many towns and villages would lack
> colour and detail.
>

It's an intriguing idea, and I agree with the general principle of
reducing reliance on sources with less gestation time, of which
newspapers are the biggest offender. I do tend to apply it in an
as-alternatives-are-available fashion, and to many kinds of sources. For
example, citing a recent academic conference paper may be justified if
no synthesizing source is available, but there are dangers to cobbling
together a new synthesis out of a dozen conference papers that may or
may not be representative of majority views in a field, that may now be
obsolete in ways unbeknownst to the reader, etc. Better to cite a proper
book or survey article, if one is available.

A problem with avoiding newspapers entirely, added to those you mention,
is that we'd even lose many things that aren't that recent. Especially
in their more "summary" pieces such as obituaries and biopics,
newspapers (and newsmagazines) fill in a lot of fairly uncontroversial
information on more minor, but potentially still important, people and
events. For the ancient world, that information is compiled fairly
exhaustively in academic sources; you can find at least a three-sentence
biography of every attested figure in some kind of specialist
encyclopedia, e.g. the impressively comprehensive _Prosopography of the
Later Roman Empire_. But for 20th-century figures that's often not the
case. For example, I've written a number of articles on minor political
figures (a mayor of Houston, say) primarily sourced from obituaries in
major newspapers, e.g. the NYT's obituary section. For what they are,
they are usually reliable enough: they provide some dates, a summary of
offices held, and a brief mention of why the person is known. For famous
figures, there are usually better sources, but for minor figures the
alternatives are often more like primary sources, e.g. the state or
municipal archives, or not including an article at all.

-Mark


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Mike DuPont
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Delirium <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/4/12 1:04 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>>
>> What would a Wikipedia look like that did not make use of press sources?
>> It
>> would look a hell of a lot more like an encyclopedia. Thousands of silly
>> arguments would never arise. Thousands of apposite criticisms of Wikipedia
>> would never arise. These are good things.
>>
>> Unfortunately, such a Wikipedia would also have vastly impoverished
>> coverage of popular culture and current affairs. The articles on Lady Gaga
>> and Barack Obama would be years behind events; the articles on the Japan
>> earthquakes, which I believe Wikipedia was widely praised for, would only
>> now begin to be written, articles on many towns and villages would lack
>> colour and detail.
>>
>
> It's an intriguing idea, and I agree with the general principle of reducing
> reliance on sources with less gestation time, of which newspapers are the
> biggest offender. I do tend to apply it in an as-alternatives-are-available

The problem with articles from india, kosovo and other minor places
for example is that many will be deleted because there are not many
press sources online for people to check refs.

mike

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Svip
In reply to this post by Marc-Andre
On 4 July 2012 01:38, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, if I were suddenly named dictator of Wikipedia, I'd probably suggest
> that a "recent event" namespace be created, where popular media were
> acceptable sources, and make them verbotten in mainspace.  Mainspace
> articles might have a hatnote with a link to the other namespace along the
> lines of "for recent, less authoritative coverage".

You could avoid the whole namespace issue by simply highlighting
articles or parts of article that are based on popular media.  Like
non-canon stuff on fiction wikis.  Highlight its background in blue or
something.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

John Mark Vandenberg
Or a template at the top.

'This article relies on newspaper sources...please contribute better
sources or tag with notability if  you cant find any better sources.'

P.s. This offtopic thread should be on Wikipedia lists as its not about the
movement in general.

On Jul 4, 2012 6:13 PM, "Svip" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 4 July 2012 01:38, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Well, if I were suddenly named dictator of Wikipedia, I'd probably
suggest
> > that a "recent event" namespace be created, where popular media were
> > acceptable sources, and make them verbotten in mainspace.  Mainspace
> > articles might have a hatnote with a link to the other namespace along
the

> > lines of "for recent, less authoritative coverage".
>
> You could avoid the whole namespace issue by simply highlighting
> articles or parts of article that are based on popular media.  Like
> non-canon stuff on fiction wikis.  Highlight its background in blue or
> something.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

metasj
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 6:21 AM, The Cunctator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just think, in a few years we can set up the site to construct drafts for
> the site that constructs drafts for Wikipedia.
>

Oh yes.  It will be called Wikiwikiwiki, with "Jam On It" playing every
time you load the main page.

<moving to wikipedia-l as suggested>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Andreas Kolbe-2
Wikipedia-l is not the most active of lists, to put it mildly. Those
interested in discussing the potential advantages and drawbacks of a
Wikipedia without press sources and coming up with some ideas for a
feasible compromise are advised that there is a related thread on
Wikipediocracy, at http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=600

On Wednesday, July 4, 2012, Samuel Klein wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 6:21 AM, The Cunctator <[hidden email]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Just think, in a few years we can set up the site to construct drafts for
> > the site that constructs drafts for Wikipedia.
> >
>
> Oh yes.  It will be called Wikiwikiwiki, with "Jam On It" playing every
> time you load the main page.
>
> <moving to wikipedia-l as suggested>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] crazy deletionists!

Nikola Smolenski-2
In reply to this post by Mark
On 03/07/12 17:09, Delirium wrote:

> The biggest angst producer in my view is actually the opposite case:
> something that seems like it "should" be covered, since it's notable,
> but for which the extant sources are really lacking, making it
> hard/impossible to write a well-sourced article. People get very angry
> when something they view as clearly notable (a programming language,
> say) is deleted due to lack of 3rd-party sources. I think the root
> problem here is a feeling that sources "should" or even "must" track
> notability, so given that something is clearly important (at least in a
> community), the lack of sources we consider acceptable is unexpected.
> Imo the problem is just that the literature sometimes lags and sometimes
> has blind spots; journalists, sociologists, historians, etc. don't cover
> everything important in full detail, instantly. I wrote a bit about that
> last year:
> http://www.kmjn.org/notes/wikipedia_notability_verifiability.html
I always imagined that Wikiversity would be the place where this could
be done. If you can't find a source on something, write it yourself,
then it could be peer-reviewed, by professional scientists and
university professors if possible, formally published and used in Wikipedia.


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