[Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

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[Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

rupert THURNER-2
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm not going to respond to all the points raised in your e-mail, Sue
> (partially because most of them are just too general), so let me just
> mentioned some of them.
>
>On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Sue Gardner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation
>> knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative (as are all
>> readers) for the work that volunteers do in the projects. The Wikimedia
>> Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki (and the
>> blog).
>
> Then it should perhaps be renamed as the Wikimedia Foundation Blog With
> Guests Post from Community Members.

uh ... i never noticed this. it seems really that WMF is considering
blog.wikimedia.org as "their" personal blog. it even says "(This is a
guest post by Carol Ann O’Hare of the French Wikimedia chapter.)" e.g.
here:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/05/10/wikimedia-france-research-award-winner/

while the domain http://www.wikimedia.org/ contents clearly states
"Wikimedia is a global movement whose mission is to bring free
educational content to the world."

i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
misreading this?

rupert, wondering ...

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

David Gerard-2
On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
> misreading this?


Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
(Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
clarify (cc'd).


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:

> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
>> misreading this?
>
>
> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
> clarify (cc'd).
>
>
> - d.
>

At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of
chapters, right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives
of the Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business
of WMF and chapters?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Oliver Keyes-4
No, ComCom is the communications committee. It's made up of people who are
movement spokespeople/otherwise have an interest in communication, by my
understanding. That's obviously going to include Chapters people, but it's
not limited to it.

On 11 May 2013 21:03, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:
>
>> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
>>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
>>> misreading this?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
>> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
>> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
>> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
>> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
>> clarify (cc'd).
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>>
> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of chapters,
> right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives of the
> Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business of
> WMF and chapters?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>



--
Oliver Keyes
Community Liaison, Product Development
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

James Forrester-5
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 11 May 2013 13:03, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of chapters,
> right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives of the
> Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business of
> WMF and chapters?
>

No. ​ComCom is made up of community people who take on communications
roles. Some of us are "normal" volunteers who answer telephones and e-mails
from journalists (this is why I joined in 2005); some are board members or
staff of the WMF or other affiliate bodies​.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
[hidden email]
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
capacity)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 11 May 2013 21:03, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of chapters,
> right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives of the
> Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the communities
> of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business of WMF and
> chapters?


No, it's pretty much anyone who is likely to deal with the media as
any sort of representative of "Wikipedia", "Wikimedia", etc. So
there's Foundation staff, there's board members, there's chapter
representatives, there's not-formally-affiliated volunteers like me.
(I think that's all the categories, no doubt I've missed someone.)

(So if there's anyone who deals with the media and isn't on the list,
please email Matthew or Jay promptly!)


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 5/11/13 10:03 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:

> On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:
>> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
>>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
>>> misreading this?
>>
>>
>> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
>> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
>> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
>> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
>> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
>> clarify (cc'd).
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>
> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of
> chapters, right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives
> of the Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business
> of WMF and chapters?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l


The blog and comcom are actually quite separated.

The blog appears to be primarly Wikimedia Foundation blog, but they love
"invited posts" that feeds the stream.

Comcom is made of many different types of people. Staff and volunteers.
WMF and chapters. Affiliated or non affiliated.

Flo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

rupert THURNER-2
While i fully understand that contents on a domain called
wikimediafoundation should be foundation managed (i see your point though
that a notification would have been nice), i do not appreciate that a blog
on wikimedia.org has no volunteer administrators. The project domains are
core to the wikimedia volunteer based movement.

Rupert.
Am 12.05.2013 19:59 schrieb "Florence Devouard" <[hidden email]>:

> On 5/11/13 10:03 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>
>> On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
>>>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
>>>> misreading this?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
>>> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
>>> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
>>> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
>>> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
>>> clarify (cc'd).
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>>
>> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of
>> chapters, right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives
>> of the Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
>> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business
>> of WMF and chapters?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>>
>
>
> The blog and comcom are actually quite separated.
>
> The blog appears to be primarly Wikimedia Foundation blog, but they love
> "invited posts" that feeds the stream.
>
> Comcom is made of many different types of people. Staff and volunteers.
> WMF and chapters. Affiliated or non affiliated.
>
> Flo
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Huib Laurens
It had volunteer administrators untill 6 months ago.

Huib


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:46 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>wrote:

> While i fully understand that contents on a domain called
> wikimediafoundation should be foundation managed (i see your point though
> that a notification would have been nice), i do not appreciate that a blog
> on wikimedia.org has no volunteer administrators. The project domains are
> core to the wikimedia volunteer based movement.
>
> Rupert.
> Am 12.05.2013 19:59 schrieb "Florence Devouard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 5/11/13 10:03 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
> >
> >> On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
> >>>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
> >>>> misreading this?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
> >>> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
> >>> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
> >>> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
> >>> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
> >>> clarify (cc'd).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - d.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of
> >> chapters, right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives
> >> of the Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
> >> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business
> >> of WMF and chapters?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Yaroslav
> >>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
> >>
> >
> >
> > The blog and comcom are actually quite separated.
> >
> > The blog appears to be primarly Wikimedia Foundation blog, but they love
> > "invited posts" that feeds the stream.
> >
> > Comcom is made of many different types of people. Staff and volunteers.
> > WMF and chapters. Affiliated or non affiliated.
> >
> > Flo
> >
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Thehelpfulone
What I struggle to understand is that the Foundation was consulting about methods of making the blog more open which was intended, from what I understand,  to allow more community members to manage it.

James, Tilman please can you explain the situation with the blog and why you removed the volunteer admins?

Sent from my iPhone

---
Thehelpfulone
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone

On 13 May 2013, at 08:48, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It had volunteer administrators untill 6 months ago.
>
> Huib
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:46 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> While i fully understand that contents on a domain called
>> wikimediafoundation should be foundation managed (i see your point though
>> that a notification would have been nice), i do not appreciate that a blog
>> on wikimedia.org has no volunteer administrators. The project domains are
>> core to the wikimedia volunteer based movement.
>>
>> Rupert.
>> Am 12.05.2013 19:59 schrieb "Florence Devouard" <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On 5/11/13 10:03 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11.05.2013 21:26, David Gerard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11 May 2013 19:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> i would have expected a "movement blog" behind this URL, appropriate
>>>>>> to the usage of the domain, but i am not sure if i am completely
>>>>>> misreading this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Comcom has been actively seeking more contributions from people other
>>>>> than Foundation staff. Most chapters have their own blog, but posts
>>>>> from them for the Wikimedia blog are in practice heartily welcomed.
>>>>> (Particularly in multiple languages.) There's even posts about
>>>>> projects other than Wikipedia or Commons ;-) Matthew Roth can probably
>>>>> clarify (cc'd).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - d.
>>>> At this point I am lost. Comcom is made of the representative of
>>>> chapters, right? (I just happen to know this because the representatives
>>>> of the Russian chapter there have hmm... complicated relations with the
>>>> communities of Russian language projects). Is the blog then the business
>>>> of WMF and chapters?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Yaroslav
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>>>
>>>
>>> The blog and comcom are actually quite separated.
>>>
>>> The blog appears to be primarly Wikimedia Foundation blog, but they love
>>> "invited posts" that feeds the stream.
>>>
>>> Comcom is made of many different types of people. Staff and volunteers.
>>> WMF and chapters. Affiliated or non affiliated.
>>>
>>> Flo
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Huib Laurens
Hi Huib,

we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your subscription.
The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it. I want to
emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member, and
that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
just need to go through moderation.

--
Tilman Bayer
Movement Communications
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB


Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.

Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly ok
with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret that
no volunteers can see it...
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

James Alexander-4
Huib: Was that the blog mailing list? I'm not actually sure that's in use
at all anymore (I was never on it, I just assumed the discussions basically
just moved to comcom).

James Alexander
Manager, Merchandise
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Huib,
>
> we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
> Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your subscription.
> The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
> we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it. I want to
> emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member, and
> that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
> posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
> just need to go through moderation.
>
> --
> Tilman Bayer
> Movement Communications
> Wikimedia Foundation
> IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>
>
> Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.
>
> Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly ok
> with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret that
> no volunteers can see it...
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Huib Laurens
It was the explanation for both, I have some more communication:

----
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Philippe Beaudette <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Error on Blog while moderating
To: Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>


I can, but I'll be honest, it's about number 19 on my list and i'm on about
number 2.  We'll get it figured out ASAP :)

___________________
Philippe Beaudette
Head of Reader Relations
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 2106  (reader relations)

[hidden email]



On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Don't know if you can check rights? I'm still on all the lists as
> administrator so maybe something somewhere went wrong?
>
> Best,
>
> Huib
>
>
> 2011/7/14 Philippe Beaudette <[hidden email]>
>
>> I know Jay is incredibly busy today... if it's less than an emergency, it
>> may take a few minutes.
>> ___________________
>> Philippe Beaudette
>> Head of Reader Relations
>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>>
>> 415-839-6885, x 2106  (reader relations)
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Could you poke Jay or check the rights?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Huib
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>
>>> Date: 2011/7/14
>>> Subject: Error on Blog while moderating
>>> To: Jay Walsh <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I get a error that I doesn't have anough permissions to moderate. Did
>>> something the change the last week? My nick on the blog is Abigor
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> huib
>>>
>>
>
and the reaction of Jay:

Hi huib - I got around to this today.  I think someone misread your
username and changed your role, and possibly a whole range of accounts,
some of whom may not have been moderating comments.

I put you back to editor status so you can mod comments.  We may change
roles again in the coming weeks as I slowly investigate how to streamline
systems on the blog.  We'll let you know.

Thanks for checking in
jay

----

So after that i was moderator for 12 hours and then all got removed again.
This makes me believe that there is no communication between the staffers
at all. And I believe Phillipe already knew, but didn't want to tell me...

Huib




On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM, James Alexander
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Huib: Was that the blog mailing list? I'm not actually sure that's in use
> at all anymore (I was never on it, I just assumed the discussions basically
> just moved to comcom).
>
> James Alexander
> Manager, Merchandise
> Wikimedia Foundation
> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Huib,
> >
> > we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
> > Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your
> subscription.
> > The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
> > we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it. I want to
> > emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member,
> and
> > that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
> > posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
> > just need to go through moderation.
> >
> > --
> > Tilman Bayer
> > Movement Communications
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > IRC (Freenode): HaeB
> >
> >
> > Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.
> >
> > Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly
> ok
> > with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret
> that
> > no volunteers can see it...
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
Hi Huib,

thanks for correcting your earlier claim in the main thread that you
were never notified about this kind of thing (although unfortunately
this correction comes only after your claim already contributed to
leaving MZ "a little speechless" and feeling "more and more ...
distanced from" Wikimedia).

I can confirm that this is the text of an email I sent you on November
16, 2011 when removing you from what was originally the blog comment
moderators list - with one crucial difference however:

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Huib,
>
> we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
> Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your subscription.
> The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
> we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it.

Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:

"And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."


> I want to
> emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member, and
> that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
> posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
> just need to go through moderation.
>
> --
> Tilman Bayer
> Movement Communications
> Wikimedia Foundation
> IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>
>
> Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.

You mean that https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-blog
is not a public mailing list? It is my understanding that it was
originally created solely as a channel of notifications about new blog
comments that needed to be moderated; these obviously should not be
public. Later there were efforts to make it more into a venue of
internal coordination about the blog, although these did not quite pan
out.

>
> Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly ok
> with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret that
> no volunteers can see it...

Actually, you were the only volunteer removed at that point in 2011 -
there were at least four volunteers who I think are still on the list.
As indicated in the part of my email that you chose to quietly
suppress, a main reason to handle your case differently was that you
were at that time indefinitely blocked by the community on more than
one wiki (to cite the block log entry from nlwiki: "Abusing multiple
accounts: general project disruption and cross-wiki disruption; trying
to evade bans on other projects, running unapproved bots and so on.
block per RfC and cu evidence." )

The fact that you are now trying to make your case by posting tampered
emails reinforces my confidence that it was the right decision to
remove you from this position of trust.

--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Huib Laurens
Tillman,

For the record, the time between your e-mail and my request why the rights
where removed is FOUR days. So yes. I stay by my claim I had to find
information myself. And showing the mails its visible that Jay didn't know
about the fact you removed me either. So NO you didn't leave me a note when
you did it. I get your note four days later.

Other volunteers also said they where removed, and I will not post that
kind of e-mails online. But on the other mailing threat there you can read
it yourself also.

When I was placed on the Wikimedia Blog I was already blocked by the Dutch
Wikipedia, That was no problem for Jay, Erik or the other people I worked
with? When I was blocked on the dutch Wikipedia I was also a moderator on
Commons, Meta, Incubator and a Member of the LangCOM and the LiCOM.

So now your saying: You where / are blocked so you can't be trusted? I
guess that makes you a complete asshole. Since the blocks and NL.wiki and
lots of other wiki's are made of complete bullshit.


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Huib,
>
> thanks for correcting your earlier claim in the main thread that you
> were never notified about this kind of thing (although unfortunately
> this correction comes only after your claim already contributed to
> leaving MZ "a little speechless" and feeling "more and more ...
> distanced from" Wikimedia).
>
> I can confirm that this is the text of an email I sent you on November
> 16, 2011 when removing you from what was originally the blog comment
> moderators list - with one crucial difference however:
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Huib,
> >
> > we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
> > Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your
> subscription.
> > The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
> > we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it.
>
> Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:
>
> "And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
> projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
> it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."
>
>
> > I want to
> > emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member,
> and
> > that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
> > posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
> > just need to go through moderation.
> >
> > --
> > Tilman Bayer
> > Movement Communications
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > IRC (Freenode): HaeB
> >
> >
> > Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.
>
> You mean that https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-blog
> is not a public mailing list? It is my understanding that it was
> originally created solely as a channel of notifications about new blog
> comments that needed to be moderated; these obviously should not be
> public. Later there were efforts to make it more into a venue of
> internal coordination about the blog, although these did not quite pan
> out.
>
> >
> > Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly
> ok
> > with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret
> that
> > no volunteers can see it...
>
> Actually, you were the only volunteer removed at that point in 2011 -
> there were at least four volunteers who I think are still on the list.
> As indicated in the part of my email that you chose to quietly
> suppress, a main reason to handle your case differently was that you
> were at that time indefinitely blocked by the community on more than
> one wiki (to cite the block log entry from nlwiki: "Abusing multiple
> accounts: general project disruption and cross-wiki disruption; trying
> to evade bans on other projects, running unapproved bots and so on.
> block per RfC and cu evidence." )
>
> The fact that you are now trying to make your case by posting tampered
> emails reinforces my confidence that it was the right decision to
> remove you from this position of trust.
>
> --
> Tilman Bayer
> Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
> Wikimedia Foundation
> IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Fæ
In reply to this post by Tilman Bayer
On 13 May 2013 12:00, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:
>
> "And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
> projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
> it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."

If you did not want to pass judgement in 2011, you certainly seem to
be making up for that retrospectively now. Perhaps it might have been
the better path to stick to that principle, rather than put this
damning email out in public, particularly an email officially from the
"Wikimedia Foundation" rather than a personal one.

By the way, I am unclear, was the email you are quoting extensively
from, rather than summarizing, a public correspondence, or are you
choosing to publish it now, on a permanently and publicly archived
email list, two year later?

Fae
--
[hidden email] http://j.mp/faewm
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Tillman,
>
> For the record, the time between your e-mail and my request why the rights
> where removed is FOUR days.

That's a completely wrong statement. I emailed you as soon as I
removed you from the wikimedia-blog list.

> So yes. I stay by my claim I had to find
> information myself. And showing the mails its visible that Jay didn't know
> about the fact you removed me either.

Which happened four months later. I guess we will have to accept your
criticism that Jay does not possess clairvoyant powers ;)

> So NO you didn't leave me a note when
> you did it. I get your note four days later.

Again you appear to be at least confusing things here, if not making
them up outright.

>
> Other volunteers also said they where removed, and I will not post that
> kind of e-mails online. But on the other mailing threat there you can read
> it yourself also.
>
> When I was placed on the Wikimedia Blog I was already blocked by the Dutch
> Wikipedia, That was no problem for Jay, Erik or the other people I worked
> with? When I was blocked on the dutch Wikipedia I was also a moderator on
> Commons, Meta, Incubator and a Member of the LangCOM and the LiCOM.
>
> So now your saying: You where / are blocked so you can't be trusted? I
> guess that makes you a complete asshole. Since the blocks and NL.wiki and
> lots of other wiki's are made of complete bullshit.

Well, as I said in my Nov 2011 email, I did not want to pass judgment
on your edits on other wikis, mainly because I hadn't fully read the
discussions reading to these blocks. But let's link those on Meta, so
others can make up their mind whether they were "bullshit":

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Abigor

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global/2011-07#Global_lock_for_Abigor

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Global/2011-01#Global_block_and_lock_for_user:Abigor

Regarding "no problem for Jay, Erik or the other people I worked
with", the first link has a comment by Philippe where he says that you
"deception ... certainly shatters any expectation of trust with me".

>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Huib,
>>
>> thanks for correcting your earlier claim in the main thread that you
>> were never notified about this kind of thing (although unfortunately
>> this correction comes only after your claim already contributed to
>> leaving MZ "a little speechless" and feeling "more and more ...
>> distanced from" Wikimedia).
>>
>> I can confirm that this is the text of an email I sent you on November
>> 16, 2011 when removing you from what was originally the blog comment
>> moderators list - with one crucial difference however:
>>
>> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hi Huib,
>> >
>> > we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
>> > Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your
>> subscription.
>> > The list is going to see more confidential information in the future, and
>> > we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it.
>>
>> Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:
>>
>> "And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
>> projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
>> it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."
>>
>>
>> > I want to
>> > emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member,
>> and
>> > that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
>> > posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they will
>> > just need to go through moderation.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tilman Bayer
>> > Movement Communications
>> > Wikimedia Foundation
>> > IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>> >
>> >
>> > Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.
>>
>> You mean that https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-blog
>> is not a public mailing list? It is my understanding that it was
>> originally created solely as a channel of notifications about new blog
>> comments that needed to be moderated; these obviously should not be
>> public. Later there were efforts to make it more into a venue of
>> internal coordination about the blog, although these did not quite pan
>> out.
>>
>> >
>> > Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly
>> ok
>> > with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret
>> that
>> > no volunteers can see it...
>>
>> Actually, you were the only volunteer removed at that point in 2011 -
>> there were at least four volunteers who I think are still on the list.
>> As indicated in the part of my email that you chose to quietly
>> suppress, a main reason to handle your case differently was that you
>> were at that time indefinitely blocked by the community on more than
>> one wiki (to cite the block log entry from nlwiki: "Abusing multiple
>> accounts: general project disruption and cross-wiki disruption; trying
>> to evade bans on other projects, running unapproved bots and so on.
>> block per RfC and cu evidence." )
>>
>> The fact that you are now trying to make your case by posting tampered
>> emails reinforces my confidence that it was the right decision to
>> remove you from this position of trust.
>>
>> --
>> Tilman Bayer
>> Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l



--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Fæ
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:33 AM, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 13 May 2013 12:00, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:
>>
>> "And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
>> projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
>> it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."
>
> If you did not want to pass judgement in 2011, you certainly seem to
> be making up for that retrospectively now. Perhaps it might have been
> the better path to stick to that principle, rather than put this
> damning email out in public, particularly an email officially from the
> "Wikimedia Foundation" rather than a personal one.
>
> By the way, I am unclear, was the email you are quoting extensively
> from, rather than summarizing, a public correspondence, or are you
> choosing to publish it now, on a permanently and publicly archived
> email list, two year later?
>
> Fae

Hi Fae,

I believe you may be confusing me and Huib here (perhaps because of
the similarity of our volunteer user names?). It was not me who posted
the content of a private email to this list without the sender's
permission. Only after this had already happened I corrected the
tampered quotation of what I had written, because this silent omission
greatly distorted the sense and context of the divulged email.


--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Fæ
On 13 May 2013 12:42, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> By the way, I am unclear, was the email you are quoting extensively
>> from, rather than summarizing, a public correspondence, or are you
>> choosing to publish it now, on a permanently and publicly archived
>> email list, two year later?
>>
>> Fae
>
> Hi Fae,
>
> I believe you may be confusing me and Huib here (perhaps because of
> the similarity of our volunteer user names?). It was not me who posted
> the content of a private email to this list without the sender's
> permission. Only after this had already happened I corrected the
> tampered quotation of what I had written, because this silent omission
> greatly distorted the sense and context of the divulged email.
> --
> Tilman Bayer
> Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
> Wikimedia Foundation
> IRC (Freenode): HaeB

No, I don't think I am confused about the order of events.

Even if Huib posted some of a past private correspondence, I would not
expect trusted staff members to start publishing the rest of that
correspondence from two years ago using their official email account
and therefore representing the Wikimedia Foundation in this action.

It is not that hard to respond to, or correct, perceived misreporting
of the facts, without cutting and pasting from past private
correspondence. Should you have (privately) first asked for permission
to publish extracts from the private correspondence, I suspect you
would have been given permission anyway.

Thanks for your prompt reply on this,
Fae
--
[hidden email] http://j.mp/faewm
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] movement blog, not WMF blog, was: Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
All other things aside, misspelling the person's name and then calling them
an "asshole" is hardly likely to lead to an amicable solution, peace, love,
or understanding, is it?


On 13 May 2013 21:09, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tillman,
>
> For the record, the time between your e-mail and my request why the rights
> where removed is FOUR days. So yes. I stay by my claim I had to find
> information myself. And showing the mails its visible that Jay didn't know
> about the fact you removed me either. So NO you didn't leave me a note when
> you did it. I get your note four days later.
>
> Other volunteers also said they where removed, and I will not post that
> kind of e-mails online. But on the other mailing threat there you can read
> it yourself also.
>
> When I was placed on the Wikimedia Blog I was already blocked by the Dutch
> Wikipedia, That was no problem for Jay, Erik or the other people I worked
> with? When I was blocked on the dutch Wikipedia I was also a moderator on
> Commons, Meta, Incubator and a Member of the LangCOM and the LiCOM.
>
> So now your saying: You where / are blocked so you can't be trusted? I
> guess that makes you a complete asshole. Since the blocks and NL.wiki and
> lots of other wiki's are made of complete bullshit.
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Huib,
> >
> > thanks for correcting your earlier claim in the main thread that you
> > were never notified about this kind of thing (although unfortunately
> > this correction comes only after your claim already contributed to
> > leaving MZ "a little speechless" and feeling "more and more ...
> > distanced from" Wikimedia).
> >
> > I can confirm that this is the text of an email I sent you on November
> > 16, 2011 when removing you from what was originally the blog comment
> > moderators list - with one crucial difference however:
> >
> > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > Hi Huib,
> > >
> > > we are currently reorganizing the internal communication about the
> > > Foundation's blog, and in the process have just removed your
> > subscription.
> > > The list is going to see more confidential information in the future,
> and
> > > we want to focus membership more on people who need to know it.
> >
> > Curiously, here you left out one sentence from my 2011 email:
> >
> > "And while I don't want to pass judgment over your work on the
> > projects, the fact that you are currently blocked on Meta etc. makes
> > it difficult to justify keeping your access at the moment."
> >
> >
> > > I want to
> > > emphasize that this has nothing to do with your conduct as list member,
> > and
> > > that your interest in and support for the WMF blog (e.g. tweeting new
> > > posts) is appreciated. You can still send messages to the list, they
> will
> > > just need to go through moderation.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tilman Bayer
> > > Movement Communications
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > IRC (Freenode): HaeB
> > >
> > >
> > > Strange that the blog is "internal" communications.
> >
> > You mean that
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-blog
> > is not a public mailing list? It is my understanding that it was
> > originally created solely as a channel of notifications about new blog
> > comments that needed to be moderated; these obviously should not be
> > public. Later there were efforts to make it more into a venue of
> > internal coordination about the blog, although these did not quite pan
> > out.
> >
> > >
> > > Even stranger is that Erik asked to create my account, he was completly
> > ok
> > > with it. So I'm not sure what the information on the blog is so secret
> > that
> > > no volunteers can see it...
> >
> > Actually, you were the only volunteer removed at that point in 2011 -
> > there were at least four volunteers who I think are still on the list.
> > As indicated in the part of my email that you chose to quietly
> > suppress, a main reason to handle your case differently was that you
> > were at that time indefinitely blocked by the community on more than
> > one wiki (to cite the block log entry from nlwiki: "Abusing multiple
> > accounts: general project disruption and cross-wiki disruption; trying
> > to evade bans on other projects, running unapproved bots and so on.
> > block per RfC and cu evidence." )
> >
> > The fact that you are now trying to make your case by posting tampered
> > emails reinforces my confidence that it was the right decision to
> > remove you from this position of trust.
> >
> > --
> > Tilman Bayer
> > Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > IRC (Freenode): HaeB
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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