[Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

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[Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Pine W
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.

http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Benjamin Lees
Which of these heinous sins do we commit?

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
> WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
>
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
>
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Pine W
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
the robot actually gets listened to.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
> WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
>
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
>
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Pine W
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
include financial compensation.

Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
encyclopedia.

In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.

Pine

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> the robot actually gets listened to.
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and
> > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> written by volunteers. That's simply false.


I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning
and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write
about their own country/city etc.

Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.

Thyge

2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> include financial compensation.
>
> Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
> that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's
> compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the
> museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
> encyclopedia.
>
> In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public
> communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
>
> Pine
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > the robot actually gets listened to.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
> and
> > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Pine W
The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they
are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door
of the grocery store may or
may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.

Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.

Pine



On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
>
> > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
>
>
> I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
> edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning
> and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write
> about their own country/city etc.
>
> Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come
> by.
>
> Thyge
>
> 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
>
> > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100%
> > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > include financial compensation.
> >
> > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel
> > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> that's
> > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
> the
> > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the
> > encyclopedia.
> >
> > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> public
> > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its
> > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically
> > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
> > and
> > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they
> are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
> paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door
> of the grocery store may or
> may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
>
> Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
> have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
> editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
> their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
>
> Pine
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100%
> > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> >
> >
> > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to
> > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> reasoning
> > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> write
> > about their own country/city etc.
> >
> > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come
> > by.
> >
> > Thyge
> >
> > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100%
> > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > > include financial compensation.
> > >
> > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
> feel
> > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> > that's
> > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly
> > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
> > the
> > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
> the
> > > encyclopedia.
> > >
> > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > public
> > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
> its
> > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> specifically
> > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> committees,
> > > and
> > > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Gnangarra
Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying
"Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary
of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects
and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to
edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest
declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that
contribute every month

On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
> they
> > are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> > standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not
> > paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> > contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
> door
> > of the grocery store may or
> > may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
> >
> > Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> > neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We
> > have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid
> > editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about
> > their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > 100%
> > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> > >
> > >
> > > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody
> to
> > > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> > reasoning
> > > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> > write
> > > about their own country/city etc.
> > >
> > > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some
> > > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
> come
> > > by.
> > >
> > > Thyge
> > >
> > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > 100%
> > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives
> > > > include financial compensation.
> > > >
> > > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
> > feel
> > > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
> > > that's
> > > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
> publicly
> > > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
> that
> > > the
> > > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
> > the
> > > > encyclopedia.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > > public
> > > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
> > its
> > > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly
> > > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that
> > > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> > specifically
> > > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> > committees,
> > > > and
> > > > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
It would be a travesty when a "Wikipedian in residence" is paid only to
write articles. In my honest opinion, I doubt that they have much time to
write themselves. This whole negativity that this thread is part of
indicates how sick the "community" is because it is not the "community", it
is people who think that their values are the community...

No reason why, there are maybe a few hundred of them in this way... if at
all.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 8 February 2016 at 01:09, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying
> "Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary
> of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects
> and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to
> edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest
> declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that
> contribute every month
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost?
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
> > they
> > > are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson
> > > standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is
> not
> > > paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid
> > > contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
> > door
> > > of the grocery store may or
> > > may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
> > >
> > > Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve
> > > neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight.
> We
> > > have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all
> paid
> > > editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest
> about
> > > their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > > 100%
> > > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay
> anybody
> > to
> > > > edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
> > > reasoning
> > > > and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
> > > write
> > > > about their own country/city etc.
> > > >
> > > > Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have
> some
> > > > affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
> > come
> > > > by.
> > > >
> > > > Thyge
> > > >
> > > > 2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> > > 100%
> > > > > written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by
> > > > > individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those
> motives
> > > > > include financial compensation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally
> I
> > > feel
> > > > > that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a
> manner
> > > > that's
> > > > > compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
> > publicly
> > > > > discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the
> > > > > encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a
> > > > > political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative
> for
> > > the
> > > > > encyclopedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> > > > public
> > > > > communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one
> of
> > > its
> > > > > > characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat
> exactly
> > > > > > what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is
> that
> > > > > > the robot actually gets listened to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> > > specifically
> > > > > > > people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
> > > committees,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-to-die/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
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>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Thyge
Volunteer and unpaid are not the same thing. There is overlap, but not congruency.
Cheers,
p

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Thyge
Sent: Monday, 08 February 2016 12:17 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"

2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false.


I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write about their own country/city etc.

Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.

Thyge

2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[hidden email]>:

> A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
> 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written
> by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those
> motives include financial compensation.
>
> Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
> feel that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a
> manner that's compliant with our policies. For example, a museum
> staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on
> Wikipedia about a fossil that the museum has in its collection may be
> a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a
> someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or
> unpaid, may be a net negative for the encyclopedia.
>
> In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
> public communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
>
> Pine
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
> > its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat
> > exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference
> > is that the robot actually gets listened to.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
> > > specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates,
> > > grant committees,
> and
> > > WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that
> -need-to-die/
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> >
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