[Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

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[Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Kim Bruning
I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)

Apologies if someone else already posted a link.

        https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8

I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.

sincerely,
        Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Amir E. Aharoni
Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could
get the awful idea to implement it.
בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> כתב:

> I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
>
> Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
>
>
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
>
> I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
>
> sincerely,
>         Kim Bruning
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Martijn Hoekstra
On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody
could
> get the awful idea to implement it.

Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an
aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful
actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.

--Martijn
> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> כתב:
>
> > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> >
> > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> >
> >
> >
https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8

> >
> > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> >
> > sincerely,
> >         Kim Bruning
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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<mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Kim Bruning
On 25 October 2014 15:09, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
>
> Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
>
>         https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8

Quite apart from other issues, the author falls at the first hurdle;
he fails to say what an IDE is.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.

Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or
something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part
of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that
should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.

(This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
opinion.)
בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
כתב:

> On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody
> could
> > get the awful idea to implement it.
>
> Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an
> aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful
> actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
>
> --Martijn
> > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> כתב:
> >
> > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > >
> > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > >
> > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > >
> > > sincerely,
> > >         Kim Bruning
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Vira Motorko
I'm not very confident to say the author is completely right/wrong but the
words

the IDE would update display the source and the HTML together, and update
the HTML inrealtime. Source on the left, HTML on the right.

​made me feel interested.

If wikitext editor could display and update the result next to source I
would be happier contributor than now, for sure.​


*Vira Motorko*

Help save natural resources – please think twice before printing this
e-mail or any attachments.

2014-10-25 20:20 GMT+03:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:

> Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
> wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
> away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
> Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
>
> Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or
> something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part
> of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that
> should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
>
> (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> opinion.)
> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
>
> > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody
> > could
> > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> >
> > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like
> an
> > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that
> aweful
> > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> >
> > --Martijn
> > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> כתב:
> > >
> > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > >
> > > > sincerely,
> > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Martijn Hoekstra
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
> wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
> away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
> Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.

So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?

>
> Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or
> something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part
> of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language
that

> should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
>
> (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> opinion.)
> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
>
> > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody
> > could
> > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> >
> > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like
an
> > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that
aweful

> > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> >
> > --Martijn
> > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]> כתב:
> > >
> > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8

> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > >
> > > > sincerely,
> > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Amir E. Aharoni
Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away.
בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
כתב:

> On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
> > wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
> > away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
> > Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
>
> So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
> expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?
>
> >
> > Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or
> > something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part
> > of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> > Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language
> that
> > should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
> >
> > (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> > opinion.)
> > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]
> >
> > כתב:
> >
> > > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
> [hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody
> > > could
> > > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> > >
> > > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like
> an
> > > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that
> aweful
> > > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> > >
> > > --Martijn
> > > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
> > > >
> > > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in templates,
> > > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > sincerely,
> > > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
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> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Martijn Hoekstra
On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away.

I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result
of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg
techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your
wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me.

> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
>
> > On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of
experienced
> > > wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will
go
> > > away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go
away.
> > > Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
> >
> > So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
> > expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?
> >
> > >
> > > Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter
(or
> > > something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as
part
> > > of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> > > Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language
> > that
> > > should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
> > >
> > > (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> > > opinion.)
> > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <
[hidden email]
> > >
> > > כתב:
> > >
> > > > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
> > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise
somebody
> > > > could
> > > > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> > > >
> > > > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound
like

> > an
> > > > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that
> > aweful
> > > > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> > > >
> > > > --Martijn
> > > > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]>
> > כתב:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in
templates,

> > > > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > sincerely,
> > > > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

quiddity-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 25 October 2014 15:09, Kim Bruning <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
[...]

> >
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
>
> Quite apart from other issues, the author falls at the first hurdle;
> he fails to say what an IDE is.
>
>
... so, what is it??   /me searches....  ah,
Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment
Annotated image:
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/267990999/Integrated_Development_Environment_IDE_software_for_embedded.jpg

We already have many of these components (requested in the medium post, or
in the image), as needed for editing an article:
* Syntax highlighter
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Remember_the_dot/Syntax_highlighter>
(gadget)
* Ajax preview (A few options. I've used user:js/ajaxPreview
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Js/ajaxPreview> for many years and love
it and strongly recommend it)
* Split preview (side-by-side)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_scripts#Previewing> (although
that doesn't have simultaneous scrolling, which would be fancy/nice. Also
the width-drag doesn't seem to work. It probably just needs an update after
6 years..)
* integrating the diff viewer with the syntax highlighted source text,
sounds incredibly confusing, so let's not do that. Besides, we have ajax
Show Changes.
* We have a Section-edit link, for jumping to the right section
* We have a Template/Page transclusion list, under the edit-source textarea

We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's
possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it
massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer
bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.)

It would be nice to get some of those userscripts turned into
(global)Gadgets and/or Extensions, but they're all usable.
The only thing they (and all our fancy optional extras) really need, is
better visibility. There are a number of ideas to do that, at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Redesign_user_preferences
and (especially the bottom of) it's talkpage. More ideas appreciated.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Mark
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On 10/25/14, 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
> wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
> away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
> Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.

What do you expect it to be replaced with? I don't care about wikitext
per se, but as an external consumer of the open-source data dumps,
having articles be in *some* kind of markup format is quite useful to
me. The same is true for editing bots, among other things. And as long
as there is some format, the IDE can simply target that format. :-)

I can imagine many ways the markup format could be better, so by all
means let's improve it. But I can also imagine a lot of ways the
situation could be worse— such as not having a markup format!

Best,
Mark


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Lila Tretikov
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Keep in mind that the projects on Y are brainstorms/seeds -- so it is
important to keep that in perspective. By the time they've evolved they
often look radically different.

That said I think there is kernel of truth there. Our components solve
often every problem with one solution. We do need a way to code on top of
wikis, but that is not necessarily the same thing as a tool to quickly
add/remove text. But we tend to think of them as one.

Do we need a better interface for writing components of top of wikis -- I'd
think so. Do we need a better way to edit text -- for sure. Are those two
the same thing?

Lila

On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away.
> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
>
> > On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of
> experienced
> > > wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
> > > away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go
> away.
> > > Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
> >
> > So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
> > expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?
> >
> > >
> > > Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter
> (or
> > > something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as
> part
> > > of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> > > Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language
> > that
> > > should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
> > >
> > > (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> > > opinion.)
> > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > כתב:
> > >
> > > > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
> > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise
> somebody
> > > > could
> > > > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> > > >
> > > > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound
> like
> > an
> > > > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that
> > aweful
> > > > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> > > >
> > > > --Martijn
> > > > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]>
> > כתב:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in
> templates,
> > > > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > sincerely,
> > > > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Mark
Oh, it will remain, just internally. Maybe some day it will be replaced
with pure XML, but that day is far away, and by the time it happens editors
aren't supposed to care. (That's just me fantasizing; Parsoid people may
have a different idea.)


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2014-10-25 21:44 GMT+03:00 Mark <[hidden email]>:

> On 10/25/14, 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>
>> Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced
>> wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go
>> away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away.
>> Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
>>
>
> What do you expect it to be replaced with? I don't care about wikitext per
> se, but as an external consumer of the open-source data dumps, having
> articles be in *some* kind of markup format is quite useful to me. The same
> is true for editing bots, among other things. And as long as there is some
> format, the IDE can simply target that format. :-)
>
> I can imagine many ways the markup format could be better, so by all means
> let's improve it. But I can also imagine a lot of ways the situation could
> be worse— such as not having a markup format!
>
> Best,
> Mark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
People Who Are Able to Edit Articles But Not to Code dismiss wiki syntax
much more than I do.

Most of them don't even bother to begin to understand it. The few who do
are a rare exception. A wiki syntax IDE will not "go a long way", as the
article says, in helping them edit. They will still be forced to do mental
mapping from [[]] to links, from ==== to headings, and so on, even if it's
shown side-by-side.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2014-10-25 21:22 GMT+03:00 Martijn Hoekstra <[hidden email]>:

> On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away.
>
> I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result
> of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg
> techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your
> wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me.
>
> > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]
> >
> > כתב:
> >
> > > On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
> [hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of
> experienced
> > > > wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will
> go
> > > > away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go
> away.
> > > > Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
> > >
> > > So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
> > > expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter
> (or
> > > > something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as
> part
> > > > of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
> > > > Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a
> language
> > > that
> > > > should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
> > > >
> > > > (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
> > > > opinion.)
> > > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <
> [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > כתב:
> > > >
> > > > > On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise
> somebody
> > > > > could
> > > > > > get the awful idea to implement it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound
> like
> > > an
> > > > > aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find
> that
> > > aweful
> > > > > actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Martijn
> > > > > > בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]>
> > > כתב:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
> > > > > > > arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in
> templates,
> > > > > > > I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > sincerely,
> > > > > > >         Kim Bruning
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Mark
I haven't had that experience with lightweight markup around here. The
humanities, journalism, and creative-writing academics are the ones who
seem to be the most enthusiastic adopters of Markdown in particular.
It's taking off quite a bit as part of a simplify/concentrate movement,
where people find WYSIWYG editors like Word too distracting, so have
moved to using Markdown as a minimalist editing environment to
concentrate on writing, at least for drafts. It also helps that it's
easy to e-mail around. People Who Code are actually mostly absent from
that trend— I don't think I've ever met a computer scientist who writes
papers in Markdown.

Wikitext, of course, especially as typically used in Wikipedia, does not
look as nice and minimalist as an article draft in Markdown does. Which
is where I think the majority of the problem lies, not in the concept of
markup itself.

-Mark


On 10/25/14, 9:46 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:

> People Who Are Able to Edit Articles But Not to Code dismiss wiki syntax
> much more than I do.
>
> Most of them don't even bother to begin to understand it. The few who do
> are a rare exception. A wiki syntax IDE will not "go a long way", as the
> article says, in helping them edit. They will still be forced to do mental
> mapping from [[]] to links, from ==== to headings, and so on, even if it's
> shown side-by-side.
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> 2014-10-25 21:22 GMT+03:00 Martijn Hoekstra <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away.
>> I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result
>> of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg
>> techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your
>> wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me.
>>
>>> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]
>>>
>>> כתב:
>>>
>>>> On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
>> [hidden email]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of
>> experienced
>>>>> wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will
>> go
>>>>> away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go
>> away.
>>>>> Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless.
>>>> So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an
>>>> expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years?
>>>>
>>>>> Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter
>> (or
>>>>> something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as
>> part
>>>>> of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less).
>>>>> Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a
>> language
>>>> that
>>>>> should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors.
>>>>>
>>>>> (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's
>>>>> opinion.)
>>>>> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, "Martijn Hoekstra" <
>> [hidden email]
>>>>> כתב:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise
>> somebody
>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> get the awful idea to implement it.
>>>>>> Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound
>> like
>>>> an
>>>>>> aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find
>> that
>>>> aweful
>>>>>> actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Martijn
>>>>>>> בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, "Kim Bruning" <[hidden email]>
>>>> כתב:
>>>>>>>> I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com,
>>>>>>>> arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apologies if someone else already posted a link.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure <scratches head>. Well, if we allow lua in
>> templates,
>>>>>>>> I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>>          Kim Bruning
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
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>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Marc-Andre
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On 10/25/2014 03:38 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> (That's just me fantasizing; Parsoid people may
> have a different idea.)

Parsoid, AFAIK, represents marked up articles as very strict HTML with
Mediawiki-specific attributes - exactly what is needed to maintain a
sane and consistent machine readable and manipulable representation, but
about as human-friendly as a punch in the face.

The idea, of course, is that we want the program and not people to have
to manipulate the internal representation because, no matter how
simplified you try to make it, editing code still sucks for 99% of humans.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by quiddity-2
quiddity, 25/10/2014 20:26:
> We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's
> possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it
> massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer
> bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.)

Are you sure we don't? Well, last time I used livepreview was probably
2007 or so, but it's still in preferences.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/special:search/livepreview also not very
useful.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

quiddity-2
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> quiddity, 25/10/2014 20:26:
>
>> We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's
>> possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it
>> massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer
>> bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.)
>>
>
> Are you sure we don't? Well, last time I used livepreview was probably
> 2007 or so, but it's still in preferences.
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/special:search/livepreview also not very
> useful.
>
>
See links for "Live preview" earlier on in my message (a.k.a. Ajax
Preview).
(Or to repeat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Js/ajaxPreview which I
heartily recommend, and there are 3 alternative items linked at the bottom
of that page. The one in Special:Preferences isn't nearly as good.)

Re: HTML-preview: I suspect I've misunderstood that section of the Medium
post (I thought he was coming at it from a debugger angle, but possibly
not). Now that I re-read it, I think maybe he's just asking for
"synchronous scrolling & selection-highlighting" in the side-by-side
preview?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor"

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> the wiki syntax must go away,
>

{{citation needed}}


> and will go away.


{{citation needed}}
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