[Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

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[Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

rupert THURNER-2
hi jimmy,

i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]

jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].

just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
wikinews on my mobile phone, that it is not in different languages,
that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.

[1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Foxj&project=en.wikipedia.org
[2] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#raphael_honigstein_and_outreach_blog_on_wikinews.3F
[3] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Pillars_of_Wikinews_writing
[4] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-November/008096.html
[5] blog: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/22/ted-wikimedia-collaboration/
[6] glam newletter: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter
[7] signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost

best,
rupert

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

Oliver Keyes-5
You're publishing on the main movement mailing list to complain about
another user and ask Jimmy a yes/no question?

This could've been handled with a neutral description of the background.
I'm not sure if you're in a position to be frightened by the comments of
long-term editors right now.

On Friday, 22 April 2016, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hi jimmy,
>
> i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
> an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
> simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
> i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
> contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
> dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]
>
> jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
> grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
> NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
> for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
> concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
> standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
> published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].
>
> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
> wikinews on my mobile phone, that it is not in different languages,
> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
> reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
> i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
> classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.
>
> [1]
> https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Foxj&project=en.wikipedia.org
> [2]
> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#raphael_honigstein_and_outreach_blog_on_wikinews.3F
> [3] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Pillars_of_Wikinews_writing
> [4]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-November/008096.html
> [5] blog:
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/22/ted-wikimedia-collaboration/
> [6] glam newletter: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter
> [7] signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
>
> best,
> rupert
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On 22 April 2016 at 12:42, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
> an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
> simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
> i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
> contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
> dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]
>
> jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
> grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
> NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
> for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
> concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
> standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
> published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].
>

A discussion about whether the Communications Team should do blog posts on
Wikinews instead of the Wikimedia Blog seems quite off-topic for this very
general mailing list. Why don't you try contacting the Communications Team?


> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
> wikinews on my mobile phone, that it is not in different languages,
> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
> reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
> i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
> classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.
>

If you have criticism to give, then using strong language such as "hate" in
every single sentence will likely cause people to tune out. This means you
are unlikely to achieve anything. Almost everyone here is open to
constructive criticism, but this message is quite far away from
that. Please be respectful of your fellow Wikimedians, and try to restate
your criticism more constructively and neutrally.

Dan

--
Dan Garry
Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:42 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> hi jimmy,
>
> i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
> an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
> simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
> i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
> contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
> dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]
>
> jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
> grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
> NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
> for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
> concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
> standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
> published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].
>
> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
> wikinews on my mobile phone,

The blog is hosted by Automattic (known for Wordpress.com) in the same
environment as high traffic sites like time.com or fivethirtyeight.com.
You can file technical issues on Phabricator:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/328/ or contact the blog
team (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Blog/Guidelines ).

that it is not in different languages,
>
It does support multilingual posts, e.g.
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/18/wikimedia-server-switch/ is available
in 23 languages.


> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
> reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
> i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
> classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.
>
> [1]
> https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Foxj&project=en.wikipedia.org
> [2]
> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#raphael_honigstein_and_outreach_blog_on_wikinews.3F
> [3] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Pillars_of_Wikinews_writing
> [4]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-November/008096.html
> [5] blog:
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/22/ted-wikimedia-collaboration/
> [6] glam newletter: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter
> [7] signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
>
> best,
> rupert
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

quiddity-2
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:42 PM, rupert THURNER
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
> wikinews on my mobile phone, that it is not in different languages,
> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features".


For translations, see
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Blog#Translations - If
you're volunteering to help, great!


> i hate that
> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting.


Last discussed in November at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archive_9#Mobile_view_not_great
Example link on mobile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Single/2016-04-14&mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile

For translations, I wish that all the local newspapers (many but not
all of <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7395165>) were translated into
various languages, but that would be a lot of work.


> i hate
> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
> reason i write this mail


That would be a lot of content to translate every month. E.g.
https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter/February_2016/Single
- if you're volunteering to do so every month, a comment on the
talkpage might work best.


> [snip]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

Marc-Andre
On 16-04-22 05:04 PM, quiddity wrote:
>> > i hate that
>> > signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting.
>
> Last discussed in November at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Archive_9#Mobile_view_not_great

With luck, the work on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T483 will help
a great deal with that issue by allowing media-dependent styling.  We're
now at the security review stage, which means we'll be in a position to
deploy to the beta servers soon.

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by Tilman Bayer
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:42 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> hi jimmy,
>>
>> i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
>> an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
>> simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
>> i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
>> contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
>> dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]
>>
>> jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
>> grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
>> NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
>> for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
>> concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
>> standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
>> published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].
>>
>> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
>> wikinews on my mobile phone,
>
> The blog is hosted by Automattic (known for Wordpress.com) in the same
> environment as high traffic sites like time.com or fivethirtyeight.com.
> You can file technical issues on Phabricator:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/328/ or contact the blog
> team (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Blog/Guidelines ).
>
> that it is not in different languages,
>>
> It does support multilingual posts, e.g.
> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/18/wikimedia-server-switch/ is available
> in 23 languages.

asaf and others were so kind to point me to the statistics of
wikinews, only SIX persons contributing. this a nice private wiki now
- nobody would notice if it is set read only :)
https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikinews/EN/SummaryEN.htm

still i think it benefits the movements software if you as WMF
communications team eat our own dogfood and publish on mediawiki.
wikinews might fit nicely as its target of publishing original texts
is closest - but anyway wiknews would need a policy change and the
bureaucrat(s) changed to allow such kinds of texts. if this policy
change revives its contributor base good. if not i'd agree with asaf
and others to just let it formally die, as it is already de facto
dead.

>> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
>> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
>> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
>> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
>> reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
>> i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
>> classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Foxj&project=en.wikipedia.org
>> [2]
>> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#raphael_honigstein_and_outreach_blog_on_wikinews.3F
>> [3] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Pillars_of_Wikinews_writing
>> [4]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-November/008096.html
>> [5] blog:
>> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/22/ted-wikimedia-collaboration/
>> [6] glam newletter: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter
>> [7] signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] wikinews has a NPOV policy derived from wikipedia, mamamia ...

David Gerard-2
For comparison: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Special:Statistics

the twitter version: "Wikinews is half as active as Citizendium."


- d.



On 1 May 2016 at 17:45, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:42 PM, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> hi jimmy,
>>>
>>> i asked on the facebook group wikipeda weekly if joe/ed could publish
>>> an upcoming blog post on wikinews. joe sutherland mentioned ".. I
>>> simply cannot get my head around its attitude to news coverage". which
>>> i find frightening. an editor for 10 years, tens of thousands
>>> contributions, thousands of pages created, degree in journalism,
>>> dissertation about news on wikipedia, administrator.[1]
>>>
>>> jimmy, as wikinews refers an old mail of you from 2003 as the holy
>>> grail of NPOV, could you please clarify once and for all that your
>>> NPOV statemant you sent to wikien-l was valid for wikipedia. and not
>>> for wikisource, wikiquote, wikinews. best on the wikinews talk page
>>> concerning NPOV [2][4]. i understand of course that certain publishing
>>> standards might apply - but NPOV, and "sourced" in the sense of
>>> published somewhere else cannot be amongst them [3].
>>>
>>> just as a note, i hate that the blog [5] opens 20 times slower than
>>> wikinews on my mobile phone,
>>
>> The blog is hosted by Automattic (known for Wordpress.com) in the same
>> environment as high traffic sites like time.com or fivethirtyeight.com.
>> You can file technical issues on Phabricator:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/328/ or contact the blog
>> team (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Blog/Guidelines ).
>>
>> that it is not in different languages,
>>>
>> It does support multilingual posts, e.g.
>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/18/wikimedia-server-switch/ is available
>> in 23 languages.
>
> asaf and others were so kind to point me to the statistics of
> wikinews, only SIX persons contributing. this a nice private wiki now
> - nobody would notice if it is set read only :)
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikinews/EN/SummaryEN.htm
>
> still i think it benefits the movements software if you as WMF
> communications team eat our own dogfood and publish on mediawiki.
> wikinews might fit nicely as its target of publishing original texts
> is closest - but anyway wiknews would need a policy change and the
> bureaucrat(s) changed to allow such kinds of texts. if this policy
> change revives its contributor base good. if not i'd agree with asaf
> and others to just let it formally die, as it is already de facto
> dead.
>
>>> that i do not have the "usual mediawiki features". i hate that
>>> signpost [7] cannot be read on mobiles because of formatting. i hate
>>> the glam newsletter [6] for the same reason, despite beeig again on a
>>> different wiki, no "read in different languages". which is the main
>>> reason i write this mail ... and asked joe why not using wikinews. and
>>> i hate that wikinews does not use mediawiki features to properly
>>> classify what quality an article has, e.g. "blog", "npov", etc.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Foxj&project=en.wikipedia.org
>>> [2]
>>> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#raphael_honigstein_and_outreach_blog_on_wikinews.3F
>>> [3] https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Pillars_of_Wikinews_writing
>>> [4]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-November/008096.html
>>> [5] blog:
>>> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/04/22/ted-wikimedia-collaboration/
>>> [6] glam newletter: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter
>>> [7] signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
>
> _______________________________________________
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