Wikimedia v2 structure

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Wikimedia v2 structure

Andrew Turvey-2
>> The main problem with this is unlimited liabilities - if you are a member
>> of the association and the association has a dispute with, say a venue,
>> they could sue any member of the association as they would be jointly and
>> severally liable.
>
> Yes, and quickly set aside. When v1 was setting up we envisaged some
> substantial donations being made to WMUK and I don't see that being any
> less likely this time around. As a general rule, companies don't like
> giving money to unincorporated individuals as there is a whole lot of
> risk; they want a 'body corporate' which has to be public about everything
> where an unincorporated association can keep just about everything
> private.

Yes, we've also considered it and quickly set it aside, for much the
same reasons and others.

.....

I'm glad it appears these things have been adequately considered. It begs the question, though, why not just revive the old company, elect a new board and keep going where it left off?

Andrew




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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

Thomas Dalton
2008/9/4 Andrew Turvey <[hidden email]>:

>>> The main problem with this is unlimited liabilities - if you are a member
>>> of the association and the association has a dispute with, say a venue,
>>> they could sue any member of the association as they would be jointly and
>>> severally liable.
>>
>> Yes, and quickly set aside. When v1 was setting up we envisaged some
>> substantial donations being made to WMUK and I don't see that being any
>> less likely this time around. As a general rule, companies don't like
>> giving money to unincorporated individuals as there is a whole lot of
>> risk; they want a 'body corporate' which has to be public about everything
>> where an unincorporated
>  association can keep just about everything
>> private.
>
> Yes, we've also considered it and quickly set it aside, for much the
> same reasons and others.
>
> .....
>
> I'm glad it appears these things have been adequately considered. It begs
> the question, though, why not just revive the old company, elect a new board
> and keep going where it left off?

Alison doesn't trust us and we don't trust Alison, so it's easiest to
just start over.

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WMUK election committee

joseph seddon
As you all may or may not be aware, WMUK are going to be having elections to form
an interim board, to run WMUK and be responsible for the running of the until the
time that the company is formed. Until now, the elections have mostly been arranged
by those participating in them, and i feel that this is not particularly a good thing
and I wanted to improve the legitimacy of these elections. Following separate
discussions with Cary Bass and Tom Dalton the idea that I would like to propose is to
have what is effectively an election committee designed to oversee the running of
the WMUK elections. The proposed make up of this board is as follows, two
representatives from the UK, one person from ChapCom and one from the foundation
board, however any of those numbers and where the members are sourced from
can change if a consensus for it exists.

The role of this committee would be to oversee the elections, ranging from deciding
the timetable of events, overseeing the voting stages including the methods and
medium the voting will take place in and finally the verifying and announcement of
the results. I hope that this would allow the UK board an amount of legitimacy in the
running of WMUK in the eyes of the UK community and also the foundation. 
 
If the UK community has no issues I would like to offer my services to organise this.

Comments would be grateful.

User:Seddon @ en-wiki


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WMUK election commitee

joseph seddon
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
As you all may or may not be aware, WMUK are going to be having elections to form
an interim board, to run WMUK and be responsible for the running of the until the
time that the company is formed. Until now, the elections have mostly been arranged
by those participating in them, and i feel that this is not particularly a good thing
and I wanted to improve the legitimacy of these elections. Following separate
discussions with Cary Bass and Tom Dalton the idea that I would like to propose is to
have what is effectively an election committee designed to oversee the running of
the WMUK elections. The proposed make up of this board is as follows, two
representatives from the UK, one person from ChapCom and one from the foundation
board, however any of those numbers and where the members are sourced from
can change if a consensus for it exists.
 

The role of this committee would be to oversee the elections, ranging from deciding
the timetable of events, overseeing the voting stages including the methods and
medium the voting will take place in and finally the verifying and announcement of
the results. I hope that this would allow the UK board an amount of legitimacy in the
running of WMUK in the eyes of the UK community and also the foundation. 
 
If the UK community has no issues I would like to offer my services to organise this.

Comments would be grateful.

User:Seddon @ en-wiki


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Re: WMUK election commitee

Tom Holden
Seems a little excessive. This election was never expected to be perfect.

2008/9/5 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:

> As you all may or may not be aware, WMUK are going to be having elections to
> form
> an interim board, to run WMUK and be responsible for the running of the
> until the
> time that the company is formed. Until now, the elections have mostly been
> arranged
> by those participating in them, and i feel that this is not particularly a
> good thing
> and I wanted to improve the legitimacy of these elections. Following
> separate
> discussions with Cary Bass and Tom Dalton the idea that I would like to
> propose is to
> have what is effectively an election committee designed to oversee the
> running of
> the WMUK elections. The proposed make up of this board is as follows, two
> representatives from the UK, one person from ChapCom and one from the
> foundation
> board, however any of those numbers and where the members are sourced from
> can change if a consensus for it exists.
>
>
> The role of this committee would be to oversee the elections, ranging from
> deciding
> the timetable of events, overseeing the voting stages including the methods
> and
> medium the voting will take place in and finally the verifying and
> announcement of
> the results. I hope that this would allow the UK board an amount of
> legitimacy in the
> running of WMUK in the eyes of the UK community and also the foundation.
>
> If the UK community has no issues I would like to offer my services to
> organise this.
> Comments would be grateful.
>
> User:Seddon @ en-wiki
> ________________________________
> Try Facebook in Windows Live Messenger! Try it Now!
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>
>

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Re: WMUK election commitee

joseph seddon
I see no reason not to aim for it to be as perfect as possible. I am not talking about on the
scale that the foundation elections are, simply a small group to ensure that this election is
being run as fairly as possible.



> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 01:50:40 +0100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] WMUK election commitee
>
> Seems a little excessive. This election was never expected to be perfect.
>
> 2008/9/5 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:
> > As you all may or may not be aware, WMUK are going to be having elections to
> > form
> > an interim board, to run WMUK and be responsible for the running of the
> > until the
> > time that the company is formed. Until now, the elections have mostly been
> > arranged
> > by those participating in them, and i feel that this is not particularly a
> > good thing
> > and I wanted to improve the legitimacy of these elections. Following
> > separate
> > discussions with Cary Bass and Tom Dalton the idea that I would like to
> > propose is to
> > have what is effectively an election committee designed to oversee the
> > running of
> > the WMUK elections. The proposed make up of this board is as follows, two
> > representatives from the UK, one person from ChapCom and one from the
> > foundation
> > board, however any of those numbers and where the members are sourced from
> > can change if a consensus for it exists.
> >
> >
> > The role of this committee would be to oversee the elections, ranging from
> > deciding
> > the timetable of events, overseeing the voting stages including the methods
> > and
> > medium the voting will take place in and finally the verifying and
> > announcement of
> > the results. I hope that this would allow the UK board an amount of
> > legitimacy in the
> > running of WMUK in the eyes of the UK community and also the foundation.
> >
> > If the UK community has no issues I would like to offer my services to
> > organise this.
> > Comments would be grateful.
> >
> > User:Seddon @ en-wiki
> > ________________________________
> > Try Facebook in Windows Live Messenger! Try it Now!
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l



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Re: WMUK election commitee

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Tom Holden
2008/9/5 Tom Holden <[hidden email]>:
> Seems a little excessive. This election was never expected to be perfect.

It's not perfection, it's legitimacy. At the moment, it's being
organised primarily by some of the candidates, which doesn't look
good. Assuming we can find people willing to sit on the committee, it
can only be a good thing.

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Re: WMUK election commitee

River Tarnell-2
In reply to this post by Tom Holden
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Hash: SHA1

Tom Holden:
> Seems a little excessive. This election was never expected to be perfect.

i agree.  while i think an election overseen by a third-party could make sense
for a 'real' board, this initial election accords no special privilege to the
people who are elected.  i'd rather see it be over quickly and the new board
move on to doing real work.

        - river.
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Re: WMUK election commitee

joseph seddon
> Tom Holden:
> > Seems a little excessive. This election was never expected to be perfect.
>
> i agree. while i think an election overseen by a third-party could make sense
> for a 'real' board, this initial election accords no special privilege to the
> people who are elected. i'd rather see it be over quickly and the new board
> move on to doing real work.
>
> - river.

What method of voting are we going to use, how are we going to collect the results. It has been
discussed on IRC to hold a secret ballot to avoid vote stacking, so if that is the case, we need to
create a method that is *secret* and we need to be able to ensure it is fair. Whether or nor we
assume good faith in those running for this election, i do not think it is professional for those running
for the board to be overseeing this election. Now how this is avoided is down to what we can agree on
this list, but i do not think that my concerns are unfounded. There is little reason to stick to the
current timetable as much as possible, but there are other issues to be dealt with.


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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

Alison M. Wheeler
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Thu, September 4, 2008 22:45, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> Alison doesn't trust us and we don't trust Alison, so it's easiest to
> just start over.

With comments like that I don't need enemies!

However, the real reason I have proposed to not try and keep WER Ltd going
(as, indeed, I have already pointed out previously) is that its history
over the past 2½ years would almost certainly prove a millstone around the
necks of anyone trying to start a new organisation. This has nothing to do
with whatever I may or may not think of the people who have so far
suggested they want to be involved (my thoughts on which will not be made
public)

Regards

Alison


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Re: WMUK election committee

Anders Wennersten
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
Our answer to a proposal from Joseph to be pat of an overseeing body:

We at ChapCom are happy to see your energetic efforts to restart the Wikimedia UK chapter.  We are following your progress by three of us being participants of your UK mailgroup. We are prepared to give our support in your work, when and if it is needed.  We look at an interim committee as a  temporary body where the formalities for being involved could be be kept at  minimum. Mostly we have seen it being set up by a group of volunteers. And  as we want to see an election to be fully controlled by the involved  community, we say no to being part of any overseeing body. If you want  though, we could appoint an "advisor" to support you effort.
 Anders Wennersten on behalf of ChapCom



joseph seddon skrev:

> As you all may or may not be aware, WMUK are going to be having
> elections to form
> an interim board, to run WMUK and be responsible for the running of
> the until the
> time that the company is formed. Until now, the elections have mostly
> been arranged
> by those participating in them, and i feel that this is not
> particularly a good thing
> and I wanted to improve the legitimacy of these elections. Following
> separate
> discussions with Cary Bass and Tom Dalton the idea that I would like
> to propose is to
> have what is effectively an election committee designed to oversee the
> running of
> the WMUK elections. The proposed make up of this board is as follows, two
> representatives from the UK, one person from ChapCom and one from the
> foundation
> board, however any of those numbers and where the members are sourced
> from
> can change if a consensus for it exists.
>
> The role of this committee would be to oversee the elections, ranging
> from deciding
> the timetable of events, overseeing the voting stages including the
> methods and
> medium the voting will take place in and finally the verifying and
> announcement of
> the results. I hope that this would allow the UK board an amount of
> legitimacy in the
> running of WMUK in the eyes of the UK community and also the foundation.
>  
> If the UK community has no issues I would like to offer my services to
> organise this.
>
> Comments would be grateful.
>
> User:Seddon @ en-wiki
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Win £3000 to spend on whatever you want at Uni! Click here to WIN!
> <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354032/direct/01/>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
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> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
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>  

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Re: WMUK election commitee

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by River Tarnell-2
> i'd rather see it be over quickly and the new board
> move on to doing real work.

My hope is that the committee will stick to the current timetable. If
things end up slowing down considerably, then the committee idea will
be been a failure, but I'm optimistic.

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Re: WMUK election commitee

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
> What method of voting are we going to use, how are we going to collect the
> results. It has been
> discussed on IRC to hold a secret ballot to avoid vote stacking

My fear isn't vote stacking, it's that the candidates make up a
significant portion of the electorate which makes it infeasible for
them all to abstain and I would rather not end up sitting on a board
with someone that knows I voted against them (and I doubt I'm alone in
that), it could be awkward.

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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Alison M. Wheeler
2008/9/5 Alison Wheeler <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, September 4, 2008 22:45, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Alison doesn't trust us and we don't trust Alison, so it's easiest to
>> just start over.
>
> With comments like that I don't need enemies!
>
> However, the real reason I have proposed to not try and keep WER Ltd going
> (as, indeed, I have already pointed out previously) is that its history
> over the past 2½ years would almost certainly prove a millstone around the
> necks of anyone trying to start a new organisation. This has nothing to do
> with whatever I may or may not think of the people who have so far
> suggested they want to be involved (my thoughts on which will not be made
> public)

You've already made your thoughts on that public - try to keep up!
Remember this comment on foundation-l?

"I have concluded
*for myself* that it is in the best interests of WMUK and of the Company
of which I am a Director (and would, like the other Directors over the
years, continue to retain a liability for the actions of for a period
after retiring/resigning) that WER is dissolved rather than 'handed over'
to a bunch of people who have not demonstrated any possibility of being
suitably qualified."
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Re: WMUK election commitee

Tom Holden
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
I agree with this concern, so a private ballot would be nice if
feasible. But if it's going to significantly delay us it's not worth
it.

In other news: I'll be off e-mail (mostly) until a week on Monday. If
for some strange reason anything urgent needs dealing with, TD has my
phone number.

Tom

2008/9/5 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:

>> What method of voting are we going to use, how are we going to collect the
>> results. It has been
>> discussed on IRC to hold a secret ballot to avoid vote stacking
>
> My fear isn't vote stacking, it's that the candidates make up a
> significant portion of the electorate which makes it infeasible for
> them all to abstain and I would rather not end up sitting on a board
> with someone that knows I voted against them (and I doubt I'm alone in
> that), it could be awkward.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>

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Re: WMUK election commitee

Andrew Whitworth-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> What method of voting are we going to use, how are we going to collect the
>> results. It has been
>> discussed on IRC to hold a secret ballot to avoid vote stacking
>
> My fear isn't vote stacking, it's that the candidates make up a
> significant portion of the electorate which makes it infeasible for
> them all to abstain and I would rather not end up sitting on a board
> with someone that knows I voted against them (and I doubt I'm alone in
> that), it could be awkward.

If impartiality is what you are after, I would be willing to volunteer
myself to help with the election. My time is short so I wouldn't be
able to do too much. I can help count votes privately, but I couldn't
manage the entire election. Since I'm neither a candidate nor a member
of the electorate, it should assuage your concerns. Maybe one or two
other impartial members of chapcom could help out here if you need it.

--Andrew Whitworth

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Re: WMUK election commitee

AGK
Seddon's suggestions seem reasonable. Regarding the comments concerning elections never intending to be totally perfect, that's not to say we have to neither resign ourself to imperfection, nor not try!

2008/9/5 Andrew Whitworth <[hidden email]>
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> What method of voting are we going to use, how are we going to collect the
>> results. It has been
>> discussed on IRC to hold a secret ballot to avoid vote stacking
>
> My fear isn't vote stacking, it's that the candidates make up a
> significant portion of the electorate which makes it infeasible for
> them all to abstain and I would rather not end up sitting on a board
> with someone that knows I voted against them (and I doubt I'm alone in
> that), it could be awkward.

If impartiality is what you are after, I would be willing to volunteer
myself to help with the election. My time is short so I wouldn't be
able to do too much. I can help count votes privately, but I couldn't
manage the entire election. Since I'm neither a candidate nor a member
of the electorate, it should assuage your concerns. Maybe one or two
other impartial members of chapcom could help out here if you need it.

--Andrew Whitworth

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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

AGK
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas,

I think Alison has explained what she meant by that comment: the intention of her Foundation-l comment was that she held concerns a new WER board being "under the cloud of the previous (less successful) board," as opposed to her not trusting the new board and therefore not supporting their replacing her.

At least, that's what I hope it meant. Alternative interpretations are a little more concerning: one would hope that the current board would hold enough trust in the wider WMUK community for them to support members from that community replacing them at the next election.

2008/9/5 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
2008/9/5 Alison Wheeler <[hidden email]>:
> On Thu, September 4, 2008 22:45, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Alison doesn't trust us and we don't trust Alison, so it's easiest to
>> just start over.
>
> With comments like that I don't need enemies!
>
> However, the real reason I have proposed to not try and keep WER Ltd going
> (as, indeed, I have already pointed out previously) is that its history
> over the past 2½ years would almost certainly prove a millstone around the
> necks of anyone trying to start a new organisation. This has nothing to do
> with whatever I may or may not think of the people who have so far
> suggested they want to be involved (my thoughts on which will not be made
> public)

You've already made your thoughts on that public - try to keep up!
Remember this comment on foundation-l?

"I have concluded
*for myself* that it is in the best interests of WMUK and of the Company
of which I am a Director (and would, like the other Directors over the
years, continue to retain a liability for the actions of for a period
after retiring/resigning) that WER is dissolved rather than 'handed over'
to a bunch of people who have not demonstrated any possibility of being
suitably qualified."
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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

Thomas Dalton
> I think Alison has explained what she meant by that comment: the intention
> of her Foundation-l comment was that she held concerns a new WER board being
> "under the cloud of the previous (less successful) board," as opposed to her
> not trusting the new board and therefore not supporting their replacing her.

I haven't seen that explanation and I don't see how her words can be
interpreted in that way. She was pretty clear.

> At least, that's what I hope it meant. Alternative interpretations are a
> little more concerning: one would hope that the current board would hold
> enough trust in the wider WMUK community for them to support members from
> that community replacing them at the next election.

Sure, one would have hoped that, but the facts would suggest otherwise.

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Re: Wikimedia v2 structure

AGK
Alison: would you care to comment as to which interpretation you intended to be drawn from your Foundation-l comment?

2008/9/5 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
> I think Alison has explained what she meant by that comment: the intention
> of her Foundation-l comment was that she held concerns a new WER board being
> "under the cloud of the previous (less successful) board," as opposed to her
> not trusting the new board and therefore not supporting their replacing her.

I haven't seen that explanation and I don't see how her words can be
interpreted in that way. She was pretty clear.

> At least, that's what I hope it meant. Alternative interpretations are a
> little more concerning: one would hope that the current board would hold
> enough trust in the wider WMUK community for them to support members from
> that community replacing them at the next election.

Sure, one would have hoped that, but the facts would suggest otherwise.

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