Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Doc glasgow
Durova wrote:

>>From across The Pond there's a wonderful book that came out in the mid-1990s
> about how dreadful the teaching of history is at the secondary school level.
>  The gap between high school and undergraduate instruction is greater for
> history than for any other subject.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me
>
> Wikipedia opens new possibilities for correcting that problem.
>
> Over here it went something like this:
>
> *When we had our revolution we got help from France.
>
> *Then we bought the Louisiana Purchase from France, which doubled the size
> of our country.  Gee, thanks.
>
> *Then we had the War of 1812, which didn't really happen in 1812, and we
> teamed up with France again.
>
> Somewhere in there was 'Let them eat cake', a guillotine, Napoleon, and
> Waterloo.  But that was all on another continent and unimportant.  As long
> as we could be buddies with France whenever necessary, everything went fine.
>
> -Durova
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:37 AM, doc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

Any decent history book opens the possibility to correct that problem.
The notion that wikipedia is the solution to the problem of American
historical illiteracy beggars belief.

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Ian Woollard
In reply to this post by Doc glasgow
On 26/03/2009, doc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Personally, I think this is just a cunning plan to get hundreds of
> thousands of young Brits trained to use wikipedia, so we can control the
> right articles and edit the Empire back in. Two clicks and 1776 becomes
> a minor crushed uprising. The world map will be pink once again
> (virtually).

Too late! According to the six degrees of wikipedia project:

http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/

the central article (the article with the least number of clicks to
anywhere) in the wikipedia is [[United Kingdom]]!

The British Empire is in control and you can't stop it :-p

<cue British national anthem>

p.s. thanks for spending the money to host it in Florida for us!
--
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be *much* better. Life in an imperfectly perfect
world would be pretty ghastly though.

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Durova
It's not so much American historical illiteracy *per se*, as the tendency of
all countries to teach a superficial and patriotic approach to history until
the university level, where most people don't study it.  Arguably, that
habit is at the root of our many nationalist edit disputes: each side quite
sincerely advocating the 'neutral' view of history they studied in formal
settings.

The optimist in me hopes that within a generation these perspectives will
have changed significantly.

It was interesting, though, to compare the John Paul Jones biographies in
English and in German (the sailor, not the bassist).  In the United States
Navy he's revered as the first national Naval hero.  The German biography
calmly introduces him as a pirate.

-Durova

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Ian Woollard <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 26/03/2009, doc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Personally, I think this is just a cunning plan to get hundreds of
> > thousands of young Brits trained to use wikipedia, so we can control the
> > right articles and edit the Empire back in. Two clicks and 1776 becomes
> > a minor crushed uprising. The world map will be pink once again
> > (virtually).
>
> Too late! According to the six degrees of wikipedia project:
>
> http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/
>
> the central article (the article with the least number of clicks to
> anywhere) in the wikipedia is [[United Kingdom]]!
>
> The British Empire is in control and you can't stop it :-p
>
> <cue British national anthem>
>
> p.s. thanks for spending the money to host it in Florida for us!
> --
> -Ian Woollard
>
> We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
> imperfect world would be *much* better. Life in an imperfectly perfect
> world would be pretty ghastly though.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Thomas Larsen-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Hi all,

On 3/26/09, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
<snip>
> " Primary school pupils should learn how to blog and use internet
> sites like Twitter and Wikipedia and spend less time studying history,
> it is claimed. A review of the primary school curriculum in England
> will be published in a final report next month. "
</snip>

Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
taking the place of history in primary schools.

On the first point, blogging, I feel that /most/ (not all) primary
school students (a) lack the skills of expression necessarily to
maintain a quality blog, (b) should spend time developing life
communication skills instead of overspecializing on Internet
discussion, and (c) have plentiful opportunities to express themselves
in other, more important ways.

On the second point, I would like to point out that (a) history will
almost certainly be around in 1000 years (exceptions might include
golden meteorites and acts of God, etc.), (b) Wikipedia and Twitter
almost certainly won't—in fact, I'm fairly sure that in even ten years
time there will be a "next best thing", and Wikipedia will not be
nearly as popular as it once was (and is), and (c) lessons learnt from
history may be applied to the entirety of one's life and can affect
all of humanity, while Wikipedia and Twitter most certainly cannot.

Anyway, that's my few pence.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Thomas Larsen-3
Oh, and just to clarify—by "golden meteorites and acts of God, etc." I
meant that pending disastrous events wiping out humanity and thus our
ability to record history, history is certain to exist in 1000 years.

Cheers,

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Thomas Larsen-3
Oh, and by "pending" I meant "unless events X or Y occur ..." :-)

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Larsen-3
2009/3/27 Thomas Larsen <[hidden email]>:

> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
> taking the place of history in primary schools.


Remember the good old days before LiveJournal, when teenagers *didn't
want* you to read their diary?


- d.

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by Thomas Larsen-3
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Larsen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
> taking the place of history in primary schools.

To take a contrary view, teaching proper use of Wikipedia has the
potential to *improve* history in primary schools.

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Bill Carter
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Sorry, but diaries serve a different function. They are for grand machinations and secret crushes. Blogging is more for worldly thoughts and that is my particular forte.

Best,
Bill




________________________________
From: David Gerard <[hidden email]>
To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:22:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

2009/3/27 Thomas Larsen <[hidden email]>:

> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
> taking the place of history in primary schools.


Remember the good old days before LiveJournal, when teenagers *didn't
want* you to read their diary?


- d.

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Michael Bimmler
In reply to this post by Sam Korn
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Larsen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
>> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
>> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
>> taking the place of history in primary schools.
>
> To take a contrary view, teaching proper use of Wikipedia has the
> potential to *improve* history in primary schools.

How so?

Michael


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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Sam Korn
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Larsen
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
>>> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
>>> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
>>> taking the place of history in primary schools.
>>
>> To take a contrary view, teaching proper use of Wikipedia has the
>> potential to *improve* history in primary schools.
>
> How so?

Primarily in teaching how *not* to use it!

Naturally primary (and early secondary) education should include
teaching how to use the Internet in learning.  Given Wikipedia's
prominence, it would of course be correct for such teaching to include
the proper use of Wikipedia.  Students might be encouraged not to
regurgitate whole paragraphs from Wikipedia.

Furthermore, there is the potential that teaching students to question
Wikipedia could lead to their being more disposed to question other
sources, which is obviously very useful in the study of any subject
(and supremely history).

Sam

--
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PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Durova
Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:

"Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic version
from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get a
safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go stay
out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."

(cackles, flees)

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 2:31 AM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Thomas Larsen
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Admittedly, I haven't perused the entire article very thoroughly.
> >>> However, I am /very/ skeptical about teaching primary school pupils
> >>> how to blog at all, and I am strongly opposed to Wikipedia and Twitter
> >>> taking the place of history in primary schools.
> >>
> >> To take a contrary view, teaching proper use of Wikipedia has the
> >> potential to *improve* history in primary schools.
> >
> > How so?
>
> Primarily in teaching how *not* to use it!
>
> Naturally primary (and early secondary) education should include
> teaching how to use the Internet in learning.  Given Wikipedia's
> prominence, it would of course be correct for such teaching to include
> the proper use of Wikipedia.  Students might be encouraged not to
> regurgitate whole paragraphs from Wikipedia.
>
> Furthermore, there is the potential that teaching students to question
> Wikipedia could lead to their being more disposed to question other
> sources, which is obviously very useful in the study of any subject
> (and supremely history).
>
> Sam
>
> --
> Sam
> PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Al Tally
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Durova <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:
>
> "Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic version
> from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
> histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
> version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get a
> safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go stay
> out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."
>
> (cackles, flees)
>

That works great, until you get the teacher that does understand how it
works. And of course, text has been lifted from Wikipedia and is all over
the internet, but it is static.

--
Alex
(User:Majorly)
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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Durova
The scary thing is that would probably work.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Al Tally <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Durova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:
> >
> > "Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic
> version
> > from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
> > histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
> > version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get
> a
> > safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go
> stay
> > out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."
> >
> > (cackles, flees)
> >
>
> That works great, until you get the teacher that does understand how it
> works. And of course, text has been lifted from Wikipedia and is all over
> the internet, but it is static.
>
> --
> Alex
> (User:Majorly)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Doc glasgow
Durova wrote:

> The scary thing is that would probably work.
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Al Tally <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Durova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:
>>>
>>> "Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic
>> version
>>> from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
>>> histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
>>> version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get
>> a
>>> safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go
>> stay
>>> out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."
>>>
>>> (cackles, flees)
>>>
>> That works great, until you get the teacher that does understand how it
>> works. And of course, text has been lifted from Wikipedia and is all over
>> the internet, but it is static.
>>
>

I suspect the "U MOM sucks cock lol" line in the middle of your
otherwise fluent essay on the Reunification of Italy might be a bit of a
give away.


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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Doc glasgow
In reply to this post by Durova
Durova wrote:

> The scary thing is that would probably work.
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Al Tally <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Durova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:
>>>
>>> "Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic
>> version
>>> from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
>>> histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
>>> version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get
>> a
>>> safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go
>> stay
>>> out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."
>>>
>>> (cackles, flees)
>>>
>> That works great, until you get the teacher that does understand how it
>> works. And of course, text has been lifted from Wikipedia and is all over
>> the internet, but it is static.
>>
>

I suspect the "UR MOM sucks TEH cock lol" line in the middle of your
otherwise fluent essay on the Reunification of Italy might be a bit of a
give away.


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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Doc glasgow
More seriously, I have primary age school-kids, and I would not allow
them to read nevermind edit wikipedia. I can't be alone in that. When my
daughter showed an interest, I went out and bought Encarta and
Britannica - which she loves and which are great for school.

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Noah Salzman
On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 AM, doc wrote:

> More seriously, I have primary age school-kids, and I would not allow
> them to read nevermind edit wikipedia. I can't be alone in that.  
> When my
> daughter showed an interest, I went out and bought Encarta and
> Britannica - which she loves and which are great for school.


What about http://schools-wikipedia.org/ ??

I'm always surprised I don't see that "promoted" more.

   --Noah--

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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Doc glasgow
Noah Salzman wrote:

> On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 AM, doc wrote:
>
>> More seriously, I have primary age school-kids, and I would not allow
>> them to read nevermind edit wikipedia. I can't be alone in that.  
>> When my
>> daughter showed an interest, I went out and bought Encarta and
>> Britannica - which she loves and which are great for school.
>
>
> What about http://schools-wikipedia.org/ ??
>
> I'm always surprised I don't see that "promoted" more.
>
>    --Noah--
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

You'll get more articles in Encarta or Britanicca - and they WILL have
all the core ones, rather than a selection of what's been OK on
wikipedia. Why would anyone want to use the schools' wikipedia?



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Re: Wikipedia isn't just a good idea - it's compulsory

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Durova
Durova wrote:
> Durova's evil guide to plagiarism:
>
> "Don't copy from the live version of the article.  Copy a historic version
> from a year ago.  Your teacher doesn't understand how Wikipedia page
> histories work and won't find the text on a Google search.  The older
> version will appear more primitive and more believably yours.  You'll get a
> safe B instead of a fingernail-biting A or an F for plagiarism.  So go stay
> out late at that party, relax, and cheat smarter not harder."
>  
Anyone who feels the need to plagiarize in this way probably lacks the
foresight needed to implement the technique. The need and the foresight
are mutually exclusive. :-)

Ec

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