[Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

J.L.W.S. The Special One
A very interesting and comprehensive post.

You forgot to mention about the language barrier.

I agree that verifiability is important, but making it compulsory
introduces problems such as systemic bias.

Where should we raise this issue for further discussion?

I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
The problem is: how do I publish it?

On 1/9/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is true. However, is there a workable solution to that?
>
> I remember when people didn't worry too much about references on
> Wikipedia. Sure, you were supposed to have them, but as long as you
> had a nice article, nobody cared.
>
> Well, what if I know the truth, but it is not written anywhere? What
> if I interview 100 people to make sure they agree, and they do? What
> if it is common knowledge in my village, which nobody will challenge?
>
> The answer: it will be labeled "unverifiable" or "non-notable" and deleted.
>
> Wikipedia's current message to the world: If it's never been written
> about, or been mentioned in a sound recording or a film, it's not
> important.
>
> Well:
>
> 1) Not all cultures have writing.
> 2) Among those cultures which DO have writing, they each place
> different importance values on it. In my daily life, I am using it
> constantly. My desk is littered with books with their titles written
> on them, products with their labels. If I go driving, some of the
> signs will have writing on them, there are billboards, signs for
> businesses, all of them using writing. But in some cultures, writing
> may not be used so extensively. Maybe it is usually just used for
> poetry, or just for writing letters to people who are far away. The
> concept of mass communication is foreign to most cultures still, and
> if you don't need mass communication, writing is hardly necessary,
> except to write a letter to someone who is not present.
> 3) Among the population of the Earth, a very, very large portion live
> in societies that are not highly literate or which don't place a high
> importance on writing. Most societies don't record every aspect of
> life the way we do. Yes, there are newspapers in India (although to
> the best of my knowledge there are no newspapers in Igbo or Aymara or
> Afar), there are books in Nepal, but if you look it up, the sheer
> volume of materials published in the First World per-capita far, far,
> far, far exceeds that of anywhere else.
>
> Here, if someone sees an insect doing something strange, they write a
> paper or a book about it, and if they don't, somebody else will! But
> in most countries, this is not the case. Books cost money to make.
> People in developing countries often don't have this money. There are
> no or (comparatively) few publishers there, and those that do exist
> cannot afford to put out the sheer volume of books put out by
> publishers here because the demand tends to be much lower (especially
> for non-fiction books). They do not have Amazon.com or massive
> real-life bookstores, so "specialty" books would not sell because they
> would have no way to reach their intended audience!
>
> And they say, that the internet will change all this. Well, in these
> societies, although internet access is on the rise, it is still very,
> very, low. Even if you do have internet access, it takes a somewhat
> higher degree of computer literacy to be able to _publish_ on the
> internet. What? You want to put your knowledge on Wikipedia? Go ahead!
>
> ...
>
> Sorry, your knowledge is not referenced. It has been deleted. You know
> nothing that is worth anything.
>
> We are telling the developing world that they do not matter and that
> they are stupid.
>
> Mark
>
> On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Requiring verifiability creates systemic bias. To be more accurate, it
> > enforces the systemic bias of existing references.
> >
> > On 1/9/07, Michael Billington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 1/9/07, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Andre Engels wrote:
> > > > > I guess I should not go into the examples, but in this case my opinion
> > > > is
> > > > > that 50,000 would be too high a limit,  I myself would be thinking of
> > > > 2,000
> > > > > or 5,000.
> > > >
> > > > Absolutely.  Perhaps for the U.S. and parts of Germany we are
> > > > approaching full coverage of all places with 5,000 people.  But
> > > > for India I doubt if we have covered all cities with 50,000.
> > > > Nothing stops the limit from being set at 500 too.  But a lower
> > > > limit could be questioned a lot more easily than a higher one.
> > > > Then again, some places with 50,000 people are less notable than
> > > > some very small places.  But if you can point to the fact that a
> > > > place has 50,000 inhabitants (or was the birth places for a
> > > > president), then it is a lot easier to defend its notability.
> > > >
> > >
> > > On one side we have western places. For instance, Wikipedia has an article
> > > about my town, political division and local member of parliament. My town
> > > and surrounding ones (all of which have wiki articles) have a population of
> > > 1,500 or so. Rambot has written articles about towns 1/10th of the size of
> > > mine.
> > >
> > > However, whilst lists of Australian, German or US (and more) topics are
> > > mostly blue links, there are lists populated almost entirely by red links,
> > > such as [[List of Sudanese singers]]. Unfortunately, very few or no reliable
> > > sources will probably be found to warrant articles about these singers (at
> > > least not on the internet), and the only way to get coverage of a large
> > > portion of them would be through original research (which we can't do
> > > obviously), or to find print sources. So does anyone on this mailing list
> > > happen to have access to archives for a Sudanese newspaper? It would be nice
> > > if we could get more things like [[WP:AWNB]] for smaller countries, so we
> > > can find people more local* who may very well be able to walk to a library
> > > to find sources and add articles. That could work wonders for coverage :-)
> > >
> > > *And I may be a bit too ambitious in assuming we have editors from just
> > > about every country
> > >
> > > Michael Billington
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Written with passion,
> > J.L.W.S. The Special One
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


--
Written with passion,
J.L.W.S. The Special One

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

M. Williamson
Yes. If you interview Jack Neo, you should keep a copy of it somewhere
online or on your personal computer. You may reference it from the
article, but it is of the utmost importance that you can produce a
copy of the interview if anyone wants it.

Mark

On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A very interesting and comprehensive post.
>
> You forgot to mention about the language barrier.
>
> I agree that verifiability is important, but making it compulsory
> introduces problems such as systemic bias.
>
> Where should we raise this issue for further discussion?
>
> I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
> It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
> information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
> interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
> studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
> The problem is: how do I publish it?
>
> On 1/9/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is true. However, is there a workable solution to that?
> >
> > I remember when people didn't worry too much about references on
> > Wikipedia. Sure, you were supposed to have them, but as long as you
> > had a nice article, nobody cared.
> >
> > Well, what if I know the truth, but it is not written anywhere? What
> > if I interview 100 people to make sure they agree, and they do? What
> > if it is common knowledge in my village, which nobody will challenge?
> >
> > The answer: it will be labeled "unverifiable" or "non-notable" and deleted.
> >
> > Wikipedia's current message to the world: If it's never been written
> > about, or been mentioned in a sound recording or a film, it's not
> > important.
> >
> > Well:
> >
> > 1) Not all cultures have writing.
> > 2) Among those cultures which DO have writing, they each place
> > different importance values on it. In my daily life, I am using it
> > constantly. My desk is littered with books with their titles written
> > on them, products with their labels. If I go driving, some of the
> > signs will have writing on them, there are billboards, signs for
> > businesses, all of them using writing. But in some cultures, writing
> > may not be used so extensively. Maybe it is usually just used for
> > poetry, or just for writing letters to people who are far away. The
> > concept of mass communication is foreign to most cultures still, and
> > if you don't need mass communication, writing is hardly necessary,
> > except to write a letter to someone who is not present.
> > 3) Among the population of the Earth, a very, very large portion live
> > in societies that are not highly literate or which don't place a high
> > importance on writing. Most societies don't record every aspect of
> > life the way we do. Yes, there are newspapers in India (although to
> > the best of my knowledge there are no newspapers in Igbo or Aymara or
> > Afar), there are books in Nepal, but if you look it up, the sheer
> > volume of materials published in the First World per-capita far, far,
> > far, far exceeds that of anywhere else.
> >
> > Here, if someone sees an insect doing something strange, they write a
> > paper or a book about it, and if they don't, somebody else will! But
> > in most countries, this is not the case. Books cost money to make.
> > People in developing countries often don't have this money. There are
> > no or (comparatively) few publishers there, and those that do exist
> > cannot afford to put out the sheer volume of books put out by
> > publishers here because the demand tends to be much lower (especially
> > for non-fiction books). They do not have Amazon.com or massive
> > real-life bookstores, so "specialty" books would not sell because they
> > would have no way to reach their intended audience!
> >
> > And they say, that the internet will change all this. Well, in these
> > societies, although internet access is on the rise, it is still very,
> > very, low. Even if you do have internet access, it takes a somewhat
> > higher degree of computer literacy to be able to _publish_ on the
> > internet. What? You want to put your knowledge on Wikipedia? Go ahead!
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Sorry, your knowledge is not referenced. It has been deleted. You know
> > nothing that is worth anything.
> >
> > We are telling the developing world that they do not matter and that
> > they are stupid.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Requiring verifiability creates systemic bias. To be more accurate, it
> > > enforces the systemic bias of existing references.
> > >
> > > On 1/9/07, Michael Billington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On 1/9/07, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Andre Engels wrote:
> > > > > > I guess I should not go into the examples, but in this case my opinion
> > > > > is
> > > > > > that 50,000 would be too high a limit,  I myself would be thinking of
> > > > > 2,000
> > > > > > or 5,000.
> > > > >
> > > > > Absolutely.  Perhaps for the U.S. and parts of Germany we are
> > > > > approaching full coverage of all places with 5,000 people.  But
> > > > > for India I doubt if we have covered all cities with 50,000.
> > > > > Nothing stops the limit from being set at 500 too.  But a lower
> > > > > limit could be questioned a lot more easily than a higher one.
> > > > > Then again, some places with 50,000 people are less notable than
> > > > > some very small places.  But if you can point to the fact that a
> > > > > place has 50,000 inhabitants (or was the birth places for a
> > > > > president), then it is a lot easier to defend its notability.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > On one side we have western places. For instance, Wikipedia has an article
> > > > about my town, political division and local member of parliament. My town
> > > > and surrounding ones (all of which have wiki articles) have a population of
> > > > 1,500 or so. Rambot has written articles about towns 1/10th of the size of
> > > > mine.
> > > >
> > > > However, whilst lists of Australian, German or US (and more) topics are
> > > > mostly blue links, there are lists populated almost entirely by red links,
> > > > such as [[List of Sudanese singers]]. Unfortunately, very few or no reliable
> > > > sources will probably be found to warrant articles about these singers (at
> > > > least not on the internet), and the only way to get coverage of a large
> > > > portion of them would be through original research (which we can't do
> > > > obviously), or to find print sources. So does anyone on this mailing list
> > > > happen to have access to archives for a Sudanese newspaper? It would be nice
> > > > if we could get more things like [[WP:AWNB]] for smaller countries, so we
> > > > can find people more local* who may very well be able to walk to a library
> > > > to find sources and add articles. That could work wonders for coverage :-)
> > > >
> > > > *And I may be a bit too ambitious in assuming we have editors from just
> > > > about every country
> > > >
> > > > Michael Billington
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Written with passion,
> > > J.L.W.S. The Special One
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Written with passion,
> J.L.W.S. The Special One
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


--
Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

J.L.W.S. The Special One
Perhaps I could join Wikinews and add a copy of the interview there?

On 1/9/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes. If you interview Jack Neo, you should keep a copy of it somewhere
> online or on your personal computer. You may reference it from the
> article, but it is of the utmost importance that you can produce a
> copy of the interview if anyone wants it.
>
> Mark
>
> On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > A very interesting and comprehensive post.
> >
> > You forgot to mention about the language barrier.
> >
> > I agree that verifiability is important, but making it compulsory
> > introduces problems such as systemic bias.
> >
> > Where should we raise this issue for further discussion?
> >
> > I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
> > It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
> > information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
> > interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
> > studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
> > The problem is: how do I publish it?
> >
> > On 1/9/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > This is true. However, is there a workable solution to that?
> > >
> > > I remember when people didn't worry too much about references on
> > > Wikipedia. Sure, you were supposed to have them, but as long as you
> > > had a nice article, nobody cared.
> > >
> > > Well, what if I know the truth, but it is not written anywhere? What
> > > if I interview 100 people to make sure they agree, and they do? What
> > > if it is common knowledge in my village, which nobody will challenge?
> > >
> > > The answer: it will be labeled "unverifiable" or "non-notable" and deleted.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia's current message to the world: If it's never been written
> > > about, or been mentioned in a sound recording or a film, it's not
> > > important.
> > >
> > > Well:
> > >
> > > 1) Not all cultures have writing.
> > > 2) Among those cultures which DO have writing, they each place
> > > different importance values on it. In my daily life, I am using it
> > > constantly. My desk is littered with books with their titles written
> > > on them, products with their labels. If I go driving, some of the
> > > signs will have writing on them, there are billboards, signs for
> > > businesses, all of them using writing. But in some cultures, writing
> > > may not be used so extensively. Maybe it is usually just used for
> > > poetry, or just for writing letters to people who are far away. The
> > > concept of mass communication is foreign to most cultures still, and
> > > if you don't need mass communication, writing is hardly necessary,
> > > except to write a letter to someone who is not present.
> > > 3) Among the population of the Earth, a very, very large portion live
> > > in societies that are not highly literate or which don't place a high
> > > importance on writing. Most societies don't record every aspect of
> > > life the way we do. Yes, there are newspapers in India (although to
> > > the best of my knowledge there are no newspapers in Igbo or Aymara or
> > > Afar), there are books in Nepal, but if you look it up, the sheer
> > > volume of materials published in the First World per-capita far, far,
> > > far, far exceeds that of anywhere else.
> > >
> > > Here, if someone sees an insect doing something strange, they write a
> > > paper or a book about it, and if they don't, somebody else will! But
> > > in most countries, this is not the case. Books cost money to make.
> > > People in developing countries often don't have this money. There are
> > > no or (comparatively) few publishers there, and those that do exist
> > > cannot afford to put out the sheer volume of books put out by
> > > publishers here because the demand tends to be much lower (especially
> > > for non-fiction books). They do not have Amazon.com or massive
> > > real-life bookstores, so "specialty" books would not sell because they
> > > would have no way to reach their intended audience!
> > >
> > > And they say, that the internet will change all this. Well, in these
> > > societies, although internet access is on the rise, it is still very,
> > > very, low. Even if you do have internet access, it takes a somewhat
> > > higher degree of computer literacy to be able to _publish_ on the
> > > internet. What? You want to put your knowledge on Wikipedia? Go ahead!
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Sorry, your knowledge is not referenced. It has been deleted. You know
> > > nothing that is worth anything.
> > >
> > > We are telling the developing world that they do not matter and that
> > > they are stupid.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Requiring verifiability creates systemic bias. To be more accurate, it
> > > > enforces the systemic bias of existing references.
> > > >
> > > > On 1/9/07, Michael Billington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > On 1/9/07, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andre Engels wrote:
> > > > > > > I guess I should not go into the examples, but in this case my opinion
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > that 50,000 would be too high a limit,  I myself would be thinking of
> > > > > > 2,000
> > > > > > > or 5,000.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Absolutely.  Perhaps for the U.S. and parts of Germany we are
> > > > > > approaching full coverage of all places with 5,000 people.  But
> > > > > > for India I doubt if we have covered all cities with 50,000.
> > > > > > Nothing stops the limit from being set at 500 too.  But a lower
> > > > > > limit could be questioned a lot more easily than a higher one.
> > > > > > Then again, some places with 50,000 people are less notable than
> > > > > > some very small places.  But if you can point to the fact that a
> > > > > > place has 50,000 inhabitants (or was the birth places for a
> > > > > > president), then it is a lot easier to defend its notability.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On one side we have western places. For instance, Wikipedia has an article
> > > > > about my town, political division and local member of parliament. My town
> > > > > and surrounding ones (all of which have wiki articles) have a population of
> > > > > 1,500 or so. Rambot has written articles about towns 1/10th of the size of
> > > > > mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, whilst lists of Australian, German or US (and more) topics are
> > > > > mostly blue links, there are lists populated almost entirely by red links,
> > > > > such as [[List of Sudanese singers]]. Unfortunately, very few or no reliable
> > > > > sources will probably be found to warrant articles about these singers (at
> > > > > least not on the internet), and the only way to get coverage of a large
> > > > > portion of them would be through original research (which we can't do
> > > > > obviously), or to find print sources. So does anyone on this mailing list
> > > > > happen to have access to archives for a Sudanese newspaper? It would be nice
> > > > > if we could get more things like [[WP:AWNB]] for smaller countries, so we
> > > > > can find people more local* who may very well be able to walk to a library
> > > > > to find sources and add articles. That could work wonders for coverage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > *And I may be a bit too ambitious in assuming we have editors from just
> > > > > about every country
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael Billington
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Written with passion,
> > > > J.L.W.S. The Special One
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Written with passion,
> > J.L.W.S. The Special One
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


--
Written with passion,
J.L.W.S. The Special One

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

David Monniaux-2
In reply to this post by Walter van Kalken
Walter van Kalken wrote:

>The whole problem with the deletion process. Not just on the English
>wikipedia, is that people who do not know anything about the subject get
>to judge. So many times you will see reasonings like ... I do not know
>about it so it isn't notable ...
>
"I've never heard about it (but I don't know the topic anyway) and I
don't see it much on Google, therefore it's not notable."

And agreed with Waerth, one big problem on Wikipedia is that it makes it
too easy for people who lack proper judgment about the worth of their
opinions (that is, who think they may have opinions on topics they don't
know about) to have a voice in the matter.

Recently I've came across criticism on an article about a French
politician: according to the critics, one issue was that many of the
references were in French! It's a bit like criticizing an article about
physics because the references are to physics books and not to the
science column of the local newspaper. Sure, it's less accessible; but
it's also probably much more accurate.

Again, this seems to come from a bogus assumption that anybody can judge
the worth of any article without knowing the issue, simply by using
formal criteria like Google hits or numbers of citations. This just does
not work.


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by pekka.gronow
On 09/01/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> NOT NECESSARILY. If an article is based on oral sources, you could at
> least make a note that "the information is based on interviews with 100
> people, made in the village of X between dates y and z. Copies of
> interviews are deposited at m." Then we'd know what is the factual basis,
> and the article could be useful as such.


On en:wp, this will promptly get zapped as original research.


- d.

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by J.L.W.S. The Special One
On 09/01/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
> It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
> information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
> interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
> studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
> The problem is: how do I publish it?


Publish it on a site yourself and get someone else to write the parts
of the article based on it.


- d.

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Subsume
In reply to this post by Robert Brockway
As I see it, an "original research" / "nonverifiable" witchhunt started last
year. I think there is far too much "Wikipedia Caselaw" justifying removal
of content for mere suspicion.

I'm glad as well, and surprised this topic picked up so much steam!  I hope
the result is a few practical, actionable process changes to afd/speedy.

One thing I caught a lot of flak for was deleting votes that contained
absolutely no logic or even comment. My reasoning for this was based on
WP:LAW that explained the voting process isn't about a headcount, but about
reaching consensus. What consensus was such a voter attempting to reach?
(except, of course, technical consensus via majority rule).

-S


On 1/9/07, Robert Brockway <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I'm glad this topic has come up for discussion.  IMHO the entire deletion
> process (including speedy deletion) needs to come up for review.  It's too
> easy for articles to come up for AfD.
>
> It was interesting to sit in a Greater Toronto Area Linux User Group
> meeting recently and hear people list many (IMHO) reasonable articles that
> had been deleted.  This was a spontaneous discussion.  I bet if so many
> people in Toronto are concerned about the deletion process that we aren't
> alone.
>
> Rob
>
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

David Monniaux-2
At the same time, we get "keep" on articles about obvious hoaxes.

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
In reply to this post by David Monniaux-2
"David Monniaux" <[hidden email]> wrote in
message news:[hidden email]...

> Walter van Kalken wrote:
>
> >The whole problem with the deletion process. Not just on the English
> >wikipedia, is that people who do not know anything about the subject get
> >to judge. So many times you will see reasonings like ... I do not know
> >about it so it isn't notable ...
> >
> "I've never heard about it (but I don't know the topic anyway) and I
> don't see it much on Google, therefore it's not notable."
>


There also seem to be a lot of "Ah! So-and-so thinks we should delete it,
and they've made a persuasive argument about it, so I'll add my vote to
their cause", without the voter doing any investigation of their own.
Perhaps a more structured AFD process, where people fill in table cells
would be a good move:

  Name
  Vote
  Reason for vote
  Evidence

e.g.
  HappyDog
  Delete
  Non-notable
  Found no evidence on Google.

Then at least we would know why any item is deleted and avoid lots of votes
from different people for the same reason.  E.g. if 50 people say
'non-notable' because it is not on Google, and 1 person says 'notable'
because it is in a prominenet textbook relating to the subject, then surely
it is notable.  Without seeing people's reasoning this will simply be 50 to
1, delete.

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)




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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Gwern Branwen
In reply to this post by J.L.W.S. The Special One
On 1/9/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A very interesting and comprehensive post.
>
> You forgot to mention about the language barrier.
>
> I agree that verifiability is important, but making it compulsory
> introduces problems such as systemic bias.
>
> Where should we raise this issue for further discussion?
>
> I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
> It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
> information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
> interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
> studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
> The problem is: how do I publish it?

That's an easy one: anywhere that will have it. I personally use
[[TOTSE]] for such material. You may then ask how it's verifiable:
well, your text file on TOTSE would include your name or at least your
Wikipedia identity, and we trust you to be who you say you are bar
oddities, so... I would suggest the Internet Archive or Project
Gutenberg if the two of you were willing to go public domain, but the
point is that finding text file hosts online is really not that
difficult (how difficult is it to set up a blog, for example?).

And you can always keep a backup in your userspace - if userspace
cannot be used for backing up primary materials used in articles and
to which you hold the copyright, then IMO we've gone way too far in
restricting its usage.

And there's always Wikisource, but I guess you would have to ask
someone else to upload it. I think they bar original works created by
contributors, but I'm not sure.

--Gwern

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

David Goodman
In reply to this post by Subsume
As for what I find,
I only look on speedy or prod for things that I can quickly spot as
possible without opening them: anything that sounds like real science,
any corporate name I recognize, any research organization name I
recognize, anything that looks like a non-UK/US author or scientist.
These arent many, and I open 20 and get maybe 5 a day worth keeping.
The problem is the personal names I do not recognize. If I have time
to do them, I find another 5/day . Of these 10, usually 1 is absurd
enough that I keep a record of it--the time someone tried to delete
JISC (the major UK interuniversity consortium) or
James Bonner, the very famous biologist, with 3 honorary degrees and a
chair at an ivy.  If people with other backgrounds looked, and every
one was checked by an intelligent person, I think about 10% would be
worth keeping or at least discussing in AfD.

I remove the tag, make a quick fix, say so, and try to notify the main
or only editor. There's an automatic template for the purpose, and the
person placing the delete is supposed to notify the author--they do
about half the time. I add a line or two  of suggestions beyond the
template

For both speedy and prod, anyone other than the author can remove the
tag, and say so with a reason on the edit summary and the talk page.
That automatically stops the process. It is not necessary to be an
admin.

The problems are that: 90% are 1-line autobios or bios of one's
girlfriend or paragraphs naming the teachers in their elementary
school; 5% are long meaningless autobio; 5% are worth thinking about.

As for automatic criteria, it isnt even safe to delete the 1-liners
because some are a start  for a person worth doing. I prefer
intelligent humans. All US/UK villages even have long been entered
from the census returns. Same could be done elsewhere.

I am not concerned about AfDs. Once something is there, it gets at
least a few people.
I haven't kept track, but I think most are rightly decided.  There's
about 100 discussions a day. Join those 1 or 2 you think you could
really help. Learn the language that works, be realistic, avoid lost
causes, and earn respect from the others.

I do not think structural change is hopeless; but we shoudn't wait for
it. Direct action is the way.  WP like most large organizations is run
by a very small number of the members, but, unlike most, anyone with
time to particpate can join in that number. --David G.

On 1/8/07, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Good. Thank you.
>
> I'm outlining it for brevity:
>
> 1) Bookmark and check [[Category:Candidates for speedy deletion]] regularly.
> Make it part of that hour or so per day when you're aimlessly clicking
> around the internet.
>
> 2) Even though you shouldn't have to, source to the point of compensation.
>
> 3) Call for back-up. Deletionists routinely summon their cheerleaders when
> things aren't going their way. Do the same.
>
> 4) Structural change -- fuggetaboutit.
>
> -S
>
> I am curious. About how many articles per day/week do you salvage from
> speedy del, David?
>
> On 1/8/07, David Goodman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, there is a very definite tendency for deletion of anything about
> > a non UK/US person or institution, or an academic, or a classical
> > musician, or someone or something not recent enough to have material
> > on Google. The reason given is always "notability not asserted" and
> > people are actually marking for deletion anything which does not
> > literally countain the word "notability" in the first paragraph. This
> > is worst in speedy, because there are only a few hours at most to
> > review tthe listed items, and there's an ongoing discussion on the
> > talk page of WP:CSD.
> >
> > Ways to deal with it are well known, but I'm outlining it for clarity.
> > More people must to make the very considerable effort of reviewing at
> > least some of the deletions.  For speedys, they're at
> > [[Category:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion]]. Twice a day is not too
> > often.  Then there's  [[Category:Proposed deletion]] every few days is
> > enough, and similarly at AfD. You'll see me there-- I'm DGG.
> >
> > AfD is the easy part, because if an article gets to AfD, there are
> > enough people watching to speak up, and enough time to improve the
> > article.
> >
> > I'm not hopeful on structural change, because no structural change can
> > stand up to people wantonly ignoring the meaning of the rules.  But WP
> > is after all a cooperatively edited project, and individual people
> > joining in can make a difference.  To return to the original posting,
> > if a number of other people familiar with Indian material support
> > worthy articles, it will work.
> >
> > For individual articles, the way to do it is to put in a clearly
> > sufficient number of citations. from printed works. (accompanied by
> > English translations if necessary). I've found that specific citations
> > from peer-reviewed journals do help, if they are at all pertinent. So
> > do Ph.d. theses and even Masters theses.
> >
> > The other specific tactic some like-minded people are using is to
> > write the article on their user page, and invite comment individually
> > from people likely to be active in AfD.
> > Format does matter.
> >
> > -- David Goodman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/8/07, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > My are these slopes slippery this time of year. And me without my sled.
> > >
> > > -S
> > >
> > > On 1/8/07, Andre Engels <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's a big hypothetical - if he had been born there, how much and
> > what
> > > > would he have written? Having somehting un-notable may not be a grave
> > > > error,
> > > > but having thousands of un-notable things clogs Wikipedia, makes
> > > > fact-checking harder and opens the doors wide to usage of Wikipedia
> > for
> > > > advertisement.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the ThirdWorld

Marek Najmajer
I've been reading some of your meassages or votes for entry deletion, and
I'm getting more and more sad.

You are trying to have a 'clean' worthfull encyclopaedia with assurance
there is no meaningless article in it.
It could be understood in case of written, printed book which looks great in
the bookshelf (I like books anyway).

But deletion of entire entries only because they are not so wide known?
Wait a moment!
It's against spirit and rationale od Wikipedia!

I can present you my own list of drivers which, I hope, stimulated people to
support Wikipedia:
Here you have it:
    1. to have free (no cost) source of information,
    2. to work out bias and antagonisms in different national, religious,
cultural, philosophical perspectives (in the wake of NPOV),
    3. to have much wider scope of entries (with no limits of printing,
publishing and paper and timber production - greens beware!),
    4. to have more fresh infos before it was even printed in newspapers,

Recapitulating, the corner stone of quality and the competitive edge of
Wikipedia as a whole is:
    * early delivery,
    * different perspectives,
    * market verification,
    * wider scope.

Now some of you are trying to make Wikipedia a digital representation of
printed encyclopaedias. Balanced and highly representative.
Great apetite and the results...? The results are at no surprise rather
mediocre. Wikipedia is not of the same level of quality as printed
Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Cleaning-oriented Wikipedians are focusing only on the first driver I've
mentioned hereinbefore. They want to have it for free and still of the
highest quality.
Why it falls short expectations.
Because it is only a try to transfer _old paper paradigm_ to completely
different _opensource digital world_, where there are no more constraints
of:
* paper and printing costs,
* costs of scalability od delivery,
* difficulties in searching,
* cost barriers of royalties.

Instead, we need - in my opinion - to exploit in whole new possibilities of
this new 'brave' model of knowledge sharing and diffusion.

If I remember, this discussion started with issues from the Third World.
Someone has counted entries from different countries and someone another
analized it and shouted:
"Wait a moment! It's a discrimination of the Third World! There is so great
overrepresentation of the developed countries."
Yes, indeed, this analyst was right.
But... What solutions were proposed?

Here you have a proposal: "In order to balance representations of different
nations and cultures, we will delete some articles."
I hope I misunderstood it!
If unfortunately not, it could be awful act of vadalism of voluntary work of
millions Wikipedians. Once again a kind of affirmative action or 'positive
discrimination' at cost of the whole community.

I think problem solution should be carefully adjusted to solve the root
cause. So:
* If you want to support entries from the Third World, do support creating
and editing new articles from these area.
* If you want to have a highly balanced set of high quality entries to
compete with printed Encyclopaedias, find some way to promote quality
(featured arcticle is an excellent step in this direction). Maybe the next
step would be creating more elaborate quality hierarchy and some new
features for quality demanding internauts like searching entries within some
quality criteria.

Maybe I'm trying here to invent gunpowder but in my opinion:
*The power of Wikipedia is to expand*
To expand: in member count, in scope, in presentation form (maps, semantic
taxonomies, graphical searching)

There are so many entries to create and so many issues to solve (ideological
battles).
Deletion of articles which looks like of little meaning is of least
importance.

Best regards,
Marqoz


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the ThirdWorld

Frederick Noronha [फ़रेदरिक नोरोनया] فريدريك نورونيا
Marek makes some great points. I couldn't agree with him more.

If anyone convinces Wikipedia that it needs to be "more like the real
thing" (whatever that is, including mainstream, printed encyclopedias
or Encarta), it would be a great loss for the attempt to build
alternatives. Likewise, it would be hardly helpful if anyone convinces
Wikipedia that it should focus on the "standard and quality
information" argument (whatever that is supposed to mean!) over all
other strengths of the Wikipedia experiment.

For someone like me, the strength of the Wikipedia lies mainly in the
fact that it has space also for my village of 8000 to be written about
for a global audience (in a factual manner, of course). If things that
are important to me are going to be seen as "peripheral" (just because
they lack size or not being visible enough in cyberspace), then in
what way is it different from the mainstream... that has kept me out
in the cold for so long, anyway?

Just the other day, a speaker here in Goa, India was describing
"remote" communities, and pointing out that the term is misleading in
itself. As he put it, the logic of "remoteness" is always connected to
our definition of what is the centre (of the world, of the nation
state, or whatever). "For people out there, their own location, of
course, is the centre of the world, as far as they go," he said.

Can we encourage the diversity of the planet to flower in the
Wikipedia, as it really should? --Frederick "FN" Noronha, Independent
Journalist, Goa, India.

On 10/01/07, Marek Najmajer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've been reading some of your meassages or votes for entry deletion, and
> I'm getting more and more sad.
>
> You are trying to have a 'clean' worthfull encyclopaedia with assurance
> there is no meaningless article in it.
> It could be understood in case of written, printed book which looks great in
> the bookshelf (I like books anyway)....
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the ThirdWorld

M. Williamson
Frederick, I think one important anchor for third-world topics is
interwiki collaboration.

Currently, creation of new Wikipedias is at a standstill...

I'm curious though... why the main page of the Konknni Test WP is not
a proper main page but actually the article about Goa, with some
sayings at the end?

Some new Wikis are sure to hit the ground running:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/dsb (Lower Sorbian)
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/stq (Saterlandic)
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/qya (Quenya)
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-WP/kb (Tripuri)
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/zb (Uzican)

It tends to be that quality standards on smaller Wikipedias are lower.
You may write material unhindered by the deletionists at AfD. Later,
this material can be reused to translate or to write new material for
en.wp, and can be used as a source in itself if necessary - interwiki
links provide some degree of credibility.

Mark

On 09/01/07, Frederick Noronha <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Marek makes some great points. I couldn't agree with him more.
>
> If anyone convinces Wikipedia that it needs to be "more like the real
> thing" (whatever that is, including mainstream, printed encyclopedias
> or Encarta), it would be a great loss for the attempt to build
> alternatives. Likewise, it would be hardly helpful if anyone convinces
> Wikipedia that it should focus on the "standard and quality
> information" argument (whatever that is supposed to mean!) over all
> other strengths of the Wikipedia experiment.
>
> For someone like me, the strength of the Wikipedia lies mainly in the
> fact that it has space also for my village of 8000 to be written about
> for a global audience (in a factual manner, of course). If things that
> are important to me are going to be seen as "peripheral" (just because
> they lack size or not being visible enough in cyberspace), then in
> what way is it different from the mainstream... that has kept me out
> in the cold for so long, anyway?
>
> Just the other day, a speaker here in Goa, India was describing
> "remote" communities, and pointing out that the term is misleading in
> itself. As he put it, the logic of "remoteness" is always connected to
> our definition of what is the centre (of the world, of the nation
> state, or whatever). "For people out there, their own location, of
> course, is the centre of the world, as far as they go," he said.
>
> Can we encourage the diversity of the planet to flower in the
> Wikipedia, as it really should? --Frederick "FN" Noronha, Independent
> Journalist, Goa, India.
>
> On 10/01/07, Marek Najmajer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've been reading some of your meassages or votes for entry deletion, and
> > I'm getting more and more sad.
> >
> > You are trying to have a 'clean' worthfull encyclopaedia with assurance
> > there is no meaningless article in it.
> > It could be understood in case of written, printed book which looks great in
> > the bookshelf (I like books anyway)....
> --
> FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
> http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>


--
Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Gwern Branwen
gwern branwen wrote:

>On 1/9/07, J.L.W.S. The Special One <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>I've been working on an article on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid.
>>It's close to GA status, but there is very little referenced
>>information on the production of the film. My friend suggested I
>>interview Jack Neo - my idol, who wrote the movie. Since his child
>>studies in my school, getting an interview is not out of the question.
>>The problem is: how do I publish it?
>>    
>>
>And you can always keep a backup in your userspace - if userspace
>cannot be used for backing up primary materials used in articles and
>to which you hold the copyright, then IMO we've gone way too far in
>restricting its usage.
>
>And there's always Wikisource, but I guess you would have to ask
>someone else to upload it. I think they bar original works created by
>contributors, but I'm not sure.
>
The latter is a theoretical possibility, vut I'm afraid that this
prospect would have a very high noise to signal ratio.  Wikisource had
to deal with this problem at a very early stage of its development.  It
took a long time to get rid of some of the attempts that were bing made
to archive computer code files that were utterly meaningless in isolation.

Authentic iInterview files would be useful in the circumstances
mentioned in this thread, but I'm not sure where; nor do I have any
ideahow the real might be sorted from those conducted in a séance or the
ones that entirely fictitious.

Ec


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
Mark Williamson wrote:

>3) Among the population of the Earth, a very, very large portion live
>in societies that are not highly literate or which don't place a high
>importance on writing. Most societies don't record every aspect of
>life the way we do. Yes, there are newspapers in India (although to
>the best of my knowledge there are no newspapers in Igbo or Aymara or
>Afar), there are books in Nepal, but if you look it up, the sheer
>volume of materials published in the First World per-capita far, far,
>far, far exceeds that of anywhere else.
>
>Here, if someone sees an insect doing something strange, they write a
>paper or a book about it, and if they don't, somebody else will! But
>in most countries, this is not the case. Books cost money to make.
>People in developing countries often don't have this money. There are
>no or (comparatively) few publishers there, and those that do exist
>cannot afford to put out the sheer volume of books put out by
>publishers here because the demand tends to be much lower (especially
>for non-fiction books). They do not have Amazon.com or massive
>real-life bookstores, so "specialty" books would not sell because they
>would have no way to reach their intended audience!
>
Most of us in developed counties would take the costs of producing a
small pamphlet for granted.  We might consider that spending $20.00 to
produce 500 copies of a pamphlet on matters of local concern to be a
bargain.  In some third world countries that's equivalent to two months
of income.  500 copies is already too many to reproduce with
[[hectograph]]y.  There may indeed not be someone close-by with the
equipment to do the job.

Ec


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Stan Shebs-2
In reply to this post by Michael Billington
Michael Billington wrote:
> However, whilst lists of Australian, German or US (and more) topics are
> mostly blue links, there are lists populated almost entirely by red links,
> such as [[List of Sudanese singers]]. Unfortunately, very few or no reliable
> sources will probably be found to warrant articles about these singers (at
> least not on the internet), and the only way to get coverage of a large
> portion of them would be through original research (which we can't do
> obviously), or to find print sources. So does anyone on this mailing list
> happen to have access to archives for a Sudanese newspaper?
>  
Larger libraries pride themselves on extensive newspaper subscriptions,
anybody in Boston or London should have no problem finding Sudanese
papers. I note this particular list is itself unsourced, so there's no
way to tell whether the people are articleworthy, even in Sudan.

It's still the case that I can go to my smallish university library,
pick a random volume about an obscure country, and find it covering
hundreds of topics not mentioned anywhere in WP. If the information is
literally sitting on a shelf downtown being ignored, I don't think we're
anywhere close to worrying about oral histories and storing interviews -
it's more a matter of getting people to use the books that already
exist. And on that note, I have three new books to start working from...

Stan


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the ThirdWorld

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Frederick Noronha [फ़रेदरिक नोरोनया] فريدريك نورونيا
Frederick Noronha wrote:

>If anyone convinces Wikipedia that it needs to be "more like the real
>thing" (whatever that is, including mainstream, printed encyclopedias
>or Encarta), it would be a great loss for the attempt to build
>alternatives. Likewise, it would be hardly helpful if anyone convinces
>Wikipedia that it should focus on the "standard and quality
>information" argument (whatever that is supposed to mean!) over all
>other strengths of the Wikipedia experiment.
>
The value of Wikipedia is as much in the processes that it stands for as
its contents.  This does not mean that we should embrace clearly
inappropriate content, but obscure or remote does not equate to
inappropriate.  This process does recognize that good content builds up
over a length of time with the help of a separate community of editors
for each article.  A smaller article community implies that the buildup
of that article will take longer.  There is no need to be impatient
about any article.

>For someone like me, the strength of the Wikipedia lies mainly in the
>fact that it has space also for my village of 8000 to be written about
>for a global audience (in a factual manner, of course). If things that
>are important to me are going to be seen as "peripheral" (just because
>they lack size or not being visible enough in cyberspace), then in
>what way is it different from the mainstream... that has kept me out
>in the cold for so long, anyway?
>
When it comes to the size of notable communities, I believe that Rambot
has set the standard with his wide selection of United States place
names.  The standard applied to the Unied States should be taken as a
precedent for other countries of the world.  I have several volumes
published by the Government of India and listing all the post offices in
India.  From my perspective, if the village is in that publication it is
notable.  100 people in a small village in India are just as valuable as
100 people in a small United States village.

>Just the other day, a speaker here in Goa, India was describing
>"remote" communities, and pointing out that the term is misleading in
>itself. As he put it, the logic of "remoteness" is always connected to
>our definition of what is the centre (of the world, of the nation
>state, or whatever). "For people out there, their own location, of
>course, is the centre of the world, as far as they go," he said.
>
I have often wondered why Goans that I have met locally here in Canada
should become so disporportionately prominent when compared to
immigrants from other parts of India.

Ec


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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Subsume
In reply to this post by Stan Shebs-2
There's no reason to pit pedia and library against one another, and simply
because the possibility exists that you can find said newspaper subscription
in a library doesn't create a reason against duplicating that information in
pedia. There are interested parties outside Londoners and Bostonians.

-S

On 1/9/07, Stan Shebs <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Michael Billington wrote:
> > However, whilst lists of Australian, German or US (and more) topics are
> > mostly blue links, there are lists populated almost entirely by red
> links,
> > such as [[List of Sudanese singers]]. Unfortunately, very few or no
> reliable
> > sources will probably be found to warrant articles about these singers
> (at
> > least not on the internet), and the only way to get coverage of a large
> > portion of them would be through original research (which we can't do
> > obviously), or to find print sources. So does anyone on this mailing
> list
> > happen to have access to archives for a Sudanese newspaper?
> >
> Larger libraries pride themselves on extensive newspaper subscriptions,
> anybody in Boston or London should have no problem finding Sudanese
> papers. I note this particular list is itself unsourced, so there's no
> way to tell whether the people are articleworthy, even in Sudan.
>
> It's still the case that I can go to my smallish university library,
> pick a random volume about an obscure country, and find it covering
> hundreds of topics not mentioned anywhere in WP. If the information is
> literally sitting on a shelf downtown being ignored, I don't think we're
> anywhere close to worrying about oral histories and storing interviews -
> it's more a matter of getting people to use the books that already
> exist. And on that note, I have three new books to start working from...
>
> Stan
>
>
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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World

Stan Shebs-2
Steve wrote:
> There's no reason to pit pedia and library against one another, and simply
> because the possibility exists that you can find said newspaper subscription
> in a library doesn't create a reason against duplicating that information in
> pedia. There are interested parties outside Londoners and Bostonians.
>  
I think you mistake my meaning - I was saying that books and newspapers
are an excellent, if unfashionable :-) , source of information worth
adding to WP. Doesn't everybody else type into WP with book propped open
in lap, or newspaper spread on floor?

Stan


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