Wikipedia's destiny

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Wikipedia's destiny

Joshua Griisser
I'm almost speechless with rage at Jimbo's unilateral deletion of the encyclopedia article [[Brian Peppers]] - not to mention his locking (via [[User:Danny]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) of [[Harry Reid]] for *five days*.

As I feared, userboxes have proven to be the canary in the coal mine. Now it's articlespace that is being jerked around.

Wikipedia ultimately must decide whether it wants to be Jimbo's personal fiefdom, or be "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". The two are clearly mutually exclusive at this point.

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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Emmel
On 2/21/06, Joshua Griisser <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I'm almost speechless with rage at Jimbo's unilateral deletion of the
> encyclopedia article [[Brian Peppers]] - not to mention his locking (via
> [[User:Danny]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) of [[Harry Reid]] for *five days*.
>
> As I feared, userboxes have proven to be the canary in the coal mine. Now
> it's articlespace that is being jerked around.
>
> Wikipedia ultimately must decide whether it wants to be Jimbo's personal
> fiefdom, or be "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". The two are
> clearly mutually exclusive at this point.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

You do realize that angry people call the office of Wikimedia very angry?
And that all sorts of people write in to the email addresses, which we then
have to deal with via OTRS clamoring for libel damages, article deletion,
and various sorts of things. This is just one way  that we can help/deal
with all these people, who frankly don't care for editing, and get Wikipedia
on its way. Trust Jimbo: if something important gets deleted, you'll hear
the community soon enough.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

geni
In reply to this post by Joshua Griisser
On 2/22/06, Joshua Griisser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm almost speechless with rage at Jimbo's unilateral deletion of the encyclopedia article >[[Brian Peppers]] -

I belive the formal aproach is to complain about "damned deletionists"

>not to mention his locking (via [[User:Danny]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) of
[[Harry Reid]] for >*five days*.
>

Yeah I don't get that back when the helpdesk recived such complaints
we talk to the people made such edits as were required while staying
with in the normal editing process then moved on (with the exception
of newsmax where I  made the mistake of telling them they could edit
wikipedia which resulted in a revert war and the evential blocking of
one newsmax employee). It seemed to work mostly.

> As I feared, userboxes have proven to be the canary in the coal mine. Now it's >articlespace that is being jerked around.
>
> Wikipedia ultimately must decide whether it wants to be Jimbo's personal fiefdom, or be >"the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". The two are clearly mutually exclusive at >this point.
>

Jimbo can't keep track of all the wikis. However any attempt to define
Brian Peppers as a species will be resisted.


--
geni
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Mark
In reply to this post by Joshua Griisser
Joshua Griisser wrote:

>I'm almost speechless with rage at Jimbo's unilateral deletion of the encyclopedia article [[Brian Peppers]] - not to mention his locking (via [[User:Danny]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) of [[Harry Reid]] for *five days*.
>  
>
I'm very confused by this one.  I wrote a one-sentence, factual,
verifiable, referenced stub reading something like the following (from
memory):

---
'''Brian Peppers''' is the subject of an [[internet fad]] due to his
unusual appearance in a police [[mug shot]] photograph.

==References==
* [[Urban Legends Reference Pages]] (snopes.com).
[http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/peppers.asp "Who's a Pepper?"].
Accessed February 17, 2006.
---

I fail to see how this could possibly be legally problematic.  What's
more, deleting it from the encyclopedia reduces our coverage of internet
culture, which is currently an active area of academic research.

There are some books on internet fads currently in press, scheduled to
appear within the next year.  If one of them mentions Brian Peppers,
will we still prohibit an article in Wikipedia about it?

I can see arguments against using Wikipedia to *create* fads, but that
is clearly not the case here.  Are we going to delete [[Star Wars kid]]
if his family complains, too?  After all, he too is famous against his
own will, and in that case the famous video was even leaked onto the
internet illegally (while in Brian Peppers case the famous photograph
was officially posted by the State of Ohio on its website in accordance
with state law).

-Mark

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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Mark
Delirium wrote:

>I'm very confused by this one.  I wrote a one-sentence, factual,
>verifiable, referenced stub reading something like the following (from
>memory):
>  
>
P.S.: The Wikimedia Foundation is now republishing a version of my
article in its entirety here:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-February/040229.html

Better scour the mailing list archives too! =]

-Mark

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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Mark Gallagher-5
In reply to this post by Joshua Griisser

G'day Josh,

> I'm almost speechless with rage at Jimbo's unilateral deletion of the
> encyclopedia article [[Brian Peppers]] - not to mention his locking
> (via [[User:Danny]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) of [[Harry Reid]] for *five
> days*.
>
> As I feared, userboxes have proven to be the canary in the coal mine.
> Now it's articlespace that is being jerked around.
>
> Wikipedia ultimately must decide whether it wants to be Jimbo's
> personal fiefdom, or be "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit".
> The two are clearly mutually exclusive at this point.

We were just discussing that ... Wikipedia *doesn't* want to be "the
free encyclopaedia that anyone can edit".  There's too much abuse, too
much ranting from trolls with a sense of self-entitlement, encouraged by
that tagline.

I quite like the idea of "Welcome to Wikipedia, where good authors are
always welcome".


--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse


--
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Keith Old
In reply to this post by Mark
 On 2/22/06, Delirium <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > Delirium wrote:
> >
> > >I'm very confused by this one.  I wrote a one-sentence, factual,
> > >verifiable, referenced stub reading something like the following (from
> > >memory):
> > >
> > >
> > P.S.: The Wikimedia Foundation is now republishing a version of my
> > article in its entirety here:
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-February/040229.html
> >
> > Better scour the mailing list archives too! =]
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
If he did, well done to him. There is no legitimate reason for an article on
Mr Peppers other than people on a couple of websites chose to make fun of
his appearance. In the latest AfD, one voter said words to effect of we're
just making fun of his appearance. Surely, Wikipedia should have higher
purposes than mocking the disabled which his article has generally tended to
be.

In general, we need to pay much more attention to people's privacy than we
have. As one of the world's most popular Internet sites, articles on people
generally tend to be high up on the first page of a Google search. If people
do a Google search for a potential employee or date, our articles come up
fairly quickly. If we have an article alleging criminal or other antisocial
behavior, we need to ensure that the case is well-known and highly
verifiable through reliable sources.

 We therefore need to ensure that if we have articles on people for a
negative reason, our policies on verifiability and reliable sources are
applied vigorously. As well, our editorial red pencils should be vigilant
about negative claims about individuals and if they don't have a reliable
source/s or don't comply with NPOV, they should be taken out.

Our longterm credibility as a biographical source and much else depends on
it. We now have a reasonable degree of prominence and we should endeavour to
use it responsibly.

Regards


*Keith Old*
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

geni
On 2/22/06, Keith Old <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If he did, well done to him. There is no legitimate reason for an article on
> Mr Peppers other than people on a couple of websites chose to make fun of
> his appearance. In the latest AfD, one voter said words to effect of we're
> just making fun of his appearance. Surely, Wikipedia should have higher
> purposes than mocking the disabled which his article has generally tended to
> be.
>

The article has not tended to do that.

> In general, we need to pay much more attention to people's privacy than we
> have. As one of the world's most popular Internet sites, articles on people
> generally tend to be high up on the first page of a Google search. If people
> do a Google search for a potential employee or date, our articles come up
> fairly quickly. If we have an article alleging criminal or other antisocial
> behavior, we need to ensure that the case is well-known and highly
> verifiable through reliable sources.
>

[[Brian Peppers]] forfilled both of those depending on your defintion
of well know.

>  We therefore need to ensure that if we have articles on people for a
> negative reason, our policies on verifiability and reliable sources are
> applied vigorously. As well, our editorial red pencils should be vigilant
> about negative claims about individuals and if they don't have a reliable
> source/s or don't comply with NPOV, they should be taken out.
>

Um yeah that is kinda what was going on with [[Brain Peppers]].
--
geni
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Emmel
On 2/21/06, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/22/06, Keith Old <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If he did, well done to him. There is no legitimate reason for an
> article on
> > Mr Peppers other than people on a couple of websites chose to make fun
> of
> > his appearance. In the latest AfD, one voter said words to effect of
> we're
> > just making fun of his appearance. Surely, Wikipedia should have higher
> > purposes than mocking the disabled which his article has generally
> tended to
> > be.
> >
>
> The article has not tended to do that.
>
> > In general, we need to pay much more attention to people's privacy than
> we
> > have. As one of the world's most popular Internet sites, articles on
> people
> > generally tend to be high up on the first page of a Google search. If
> people
> > do a Google search for a potential employee or date, our articles come
> up
> > fairly quickly. If we have an article alleging criminal or other
> antisocial
> > behavior, we need to ensure that the case is well-known and highly
> > verifiable through reliable sources.
> >
>
> [[Brian Peppers]] forfilled both of those depending on your defintion
> of well know.
>
> >  We therefore need to ensure that if we have articles on people for a
> > negative reason, our policies on verifiability and reliable sources are
> > applied vigorously. As well, our editorial red pencils should be
> vigilant
> > about negative claims about individuals and if they don't have a
> reliable
> > source/s or don't comply with NPOV, they should be taken out.
> >
>
> Um yeah that is kinda what was going on with [[Brain Peppers]].
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


I hold the opinion that any article on this man is not going to be NPOV,
since the only reason he is popular is because Peppers is unfortuantely
stricken with a condition that makes him look funny. Our editorial standards
should be such that we don't have to stoop to have an article designed to
inflicy more problems on the article subject.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Andrew Lih
On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I hold the opinion that any article on this man is not going to be NPOV,
> since the only reason he is popular is because Peppers is unfortuantely
> stricken with a condition that makes him look funny.

Not entirely - the person has a Snopes.com entry, and is a registered
sex offender in Ohio.

I'm not endorsing it one way or another (for now), but it's certainly
not a "slam dunk" case.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

geni
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I hold the opinion that any article on this man is not going to be NPOV,
> since the only reason he is popular is because Peppers is unfortuantely
> stricken with a condition that makes him look funny.

I don't think you will be able to use that to get [[Joseph Merrick]] through AFD

>Our editorial standards
> should be such that we don't have to stoop to have an article designed to
> inflicy more problems on the article subject.
>

The article wasn't designed to do that

--
geni
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Emmel
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On 2/21/06, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I hold the opinion that any article on this man is not going to be NPOV,
> > since the only reason he is popular is because Peppers is unfortuantely
> > stricken with a condition that makes him look funny.
>
> Not entirely - the person has a Snopes.com entry, and is a registered
> sex offender in Ohio.
>
> I'm not endorsing it one way or another (for now), but it's certainly
> not a "slam dunk" case.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

No, I do agree that it's not a open-and-shut decision. But like Jimbo said,
if we still care about this article in a year, then we can argue then. It's
a pretty good way to find out notability. My logic goes like this: a person
with a disability is not inherently notable, a sex offender is not
inherently notable, so a combination of the two is only barely notable.
Given that we should have high editorial standards, I think our Brian
Peppers slips beneath our bar.

If I was him, or a member of his family, I certainly wouldn't want it up
there.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Emmel
In reply to this post by geni
On 2/21/06, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think you will be able to use that to get [[Joseph Merrick]]
> through AFD


Brian Peppers doesn't have nine books about him, nor a Tony-award winning
play, an Oscar-winning movie, and a TV special.

On a side note, the Merrick article needs a POV check. Can we be guessing on
whether he never found love?
--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/21/06, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I hold the opinion that any article on this man is not going to be NPOV,
> > > since the only reason he is popular is because Peppers is unfortuantely
> > > stricken with a condition that makes him look funny.
> >
> > Not entirely - the person has a Snopes.com entry, and is a registered
> > sex offender in Ohio.
> >
> > I'm not endorsing it one way or another (for now), but it's certainly
> > not a "slam dunk" case.
>
> No, I do agree that it's not a open-and-shut decision. But like Jimbo said,
> if we still care about this article in a year, then we can argue then. It's
> a pretty good way to find out notability. My logic goes like this: a person
> with a disability is not inherently notable, a sex offender is not
> inherently notable, so a combination of the two is only barely notable.
> Given that we should have high editorial standards, I think our Brian
> Peppers slips beneath our bar.

We can debate whether the math should be 0.5 x 0.5 or 0.5 + 0.5

But you did not address the fact that it has become such a referenced
urban legend that it made it into Snopes.com's files.

> If I was him, or a member of his family, I certainly wouldn't want it up
> there.

But that has never been a criteria for inclusion or exclusion.

-Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

geni
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
On 2/22/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2/21/06, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think you will be able to use that to get [[Joseph Merrick]]
> > through AFD
>
>
> Brian Peppers doesn't have nine books about him, nor a Tony-award winning
> play, an Oscar-winning movie, and a TV special.
>

Ah so we are back to the good old notibilty criteria. Now generaly at
this point an inclusionist should turn up and propose some incredibily
liberal criteria then refuse to budge makeing further debate tricky.

> On a side note, the Merrick article needs a POV check. Can we be guessing on
> whether he never found love?

No he complained about it at one point. I think there is a mention of
it on the BBC website. I think he hoped to meet a blind woman.

--
geni
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Emmel
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On 2/21/06, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But you did not address the fact that it has become such a referenced
> urban legend that it made it into Snopes.com's files.
>
> > If I was him, or a member of his family, I certainly wouldn't want it up
> > there.
>
> But that has never been a criteria for inclusion or exclusion.
>
> -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Snopes has a lot of stuff that I don't think would populate the annals of
Wikipedia. And while the wishes of one don't determine the inclusion,
they're something that we should at least keep in mind.

Please realize that I'm not entirely sure on whether the article should be
kept or deleted. Obviously, we're going to wait for a year anyways.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Ben Lowe
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
I will be writing a Tony-award-winning musical about Brian Peppers within
the next year entitled "0.5 + 0.5 = My Heart: The Brian Peppers Story".  I
will then petition Jimbo to unblock the page.

That, my friends, is *bold*.



On 2/21/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/21/06, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think you will be able to use that to get [[Joseph Merrick]]
> > through AFD
>
>
> Brian Peppers doesn't have nine books about him, nor a Tony-award winning
> play, an Oscar-winning movie, and a TV special.
>
> On a side note, the Merrick article needs a POV check. Can we be guessing
> on
> whether he never found love?
> --
> Ben Emmel
> Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
> "A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
> -- William Blake
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Minh Nguyen-2
In reply to this post by Mark Gallagher-5
Mark Gallagher wrote:

> We were just discussing that ... Wikipedia *doesn't* want to be "the
> free encyclopaedia that anyone can edit".  There's too much abuse, too
> much ranting from trolls with a sense of self-entitlement, encouraged by
> that tagline.
>
> I quite like the idea of "Welcome to Wikipedia, where good authors are
> always welcome".
>
>
> --
> Mark Gallagher
> "What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
> - Danger Mouse

Wouldn't that be a better tagline for Wikibooks? :P

--
Minh Nguyen <[hidden email]>
AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: [hidden email]; Blog: http://mxn.f2o.org/

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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Geoffrey Burling
In reply to this post by Joshua Griisser
Just a number of observations on this topic.

1. If a person is a topic of sufficient attention, for whatever
reason, Wikipedia should have an article on that person.

2. I thought Delerium's stub was quite accurate & NPOV.

3. The edit history of this article had 675 edits -- including
Delerium's. Sheesh.

4. I am reminded of a strategy I mentioned in another thread --

        a. Silently acquiese to opponent's edits; after all, there's
        many other articles in need of attention.
        b. Wait x number of weeks.
        c. Revert opponent's edits while carefully leaving any later
        contributions intact.
        d. Repeat steps 2 & 3 as often as needed.

and of the variations other people mentioned.

5. When I hear that this person's family is concerned about the
article, are they more worried about the picture of his appearance, or
that he was declared guilty in a court of law for a sex crime --
specifically on the charge of "Gross Sexual Imposition" & an attempt
to do the same?

6. And just what is "Gross Sexual Imposition"? For the curious, I
found a definition at
http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/training/pubs/cert/unit2-2C_rev0506.pdf --
which defines it as involuntary sexual groping, with the usual
conditions that apply to a definition of rape: use or threat of use
of force, whether the parties involved are married[*], whether the
victim was capable of consenting to this act, & if the victim was
less than 13 years of age. FWIW, when I Googled for the specific
part of the Ohio Revised Code that he was convicted under, I found a
hit that explains this is one crime that explicitly cannot be expunged
from his record.

7. Looking at this guy's picture & considering the crime he was
convicted of, I have to wonder if this wasn't some mean-spirited
practical joke gone badly wrong, & for which he is being mangled by the
gears of justice. (Of course this kind of thing happens -- & not only
in the US: I remember reading about a case in the UK where a pair of
homeless bums were arrested & convicted of being notorious IRA
bombers, despite the fact both were obviously incapable of holding a
normal job or even attempting to apply for one, let alone managing such
a demanding chore as making & setting these complicated devices.)

8. Again, FWIW I went to school with a guy with a similar deformity
similar this one. He exhibited normal intelligence. If the findings of
the court were accurate, then he knew what he was doing: coercing
another person to being groped.

9. Are we more worried about providing verifiable information in
Wikipedia, or if people are going to object to the nature of our
information? After all, are we going to back off from stating that
Vice-President Cheney shot Whittington in the face with a shotgun, &
that Whittington later apologized to Cheny & his family for the
accident?

Geoff

[*] I am not expressing an opinion on this clause of the relevant
section of the Ohio Revised Code. I am merely reporting what it says.

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Re: Wikipedia's destiny

Steve Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Mark Gallagher-5
On 2/22/06, Mark Gallagher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We were just discussing that ... Wikipedia *doesn't* want to be "the
> free encyclopaedia that anyone can edit".  There's too much abuse, too
> much ranting from trolls with a sense of self-entitlement, encouraged by
> that tagline.
>
> I quite like the idea of "Welcome to Wikipedia, where good authors are
> always welcome".

Oh, very well said. '''Support'''

Steve
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