Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

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Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Teofilo
The other day, I read the [[:en:Wikileaks]] article on Wikipedia. What
it said was, more or less, that Wilileaks is a leaks website that used
to be a wiki. And I wondered : how long will it take before we read
somewhere : Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki ?

Sooner than you might think.

Just yesterday, someone reported a mistake at the French village pump
: a castle was located at the wrong location on the new
toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers map tool. That castle, called
"Pierrefonds Castle", should be located in the Pierrefonds town, not
in Senlis town, like the Windsor castle is located in the town of
Windsor to the exclusion of any other English town.

I thought this was the time to show the power of a wiki : a cool
website everybody can edit, especially useful to instantly correct
straightforward mistakes like that one.

The toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers software is cute enough to
provide "source: ru" at the bottom of the little popup window that
pops up when you click on the wrongly located castle. I instantly
corrected the wrong coordinates on the Russian language version of
Wikipedia (1) which had the mistake.

We are more or less 24 hours (19 hours, exactly) after I corrected the
mistake, but the toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers is still wrong.
This is not what a wiki is supposed to be.

There are 2 potential reasons. A) The Russian Wikipedia uses "Flagged
revisions" and my newbie edit might be ignored by whoever wants to
ignore it because it is flagged as a non-flagged newbie edit.B) the
toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers software might be too slow to
perform updates.

Whatever the reason, this is evidence that Wikipedia is changing into
something that is not a wiki.

I am wondering if the whole problem is not the sheer idea of having
"developers" doing their job : "developping". Developping means
changing. If you change a wiki, you have 99% of chances that what it
changes into is not a wiki.

This was my first anti-developer rant of 2011. Happy new year everybody.

(1) http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_%28%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%29&action=historysubmit&diff=30694643&oldid=28135989

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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Виктория-6
Greetings  Teofilo,

Although RuWiki uses Flagged revisions, in most of the articles all changes
are "go live" immediately and this is true for Пьерфон (замок). Thank you
for your edit
http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_%28%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%29&action=historysubmit&diff=30694643&oldid=28135989,

it had been patrolled  = [отпатрулированная версия] anyway.

Victoriq

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The other day, I read the [[:en:Wikileaks]] article on Wikipedia. What
> it said was, more or less, that Wilileaks is a leaks website that used
> to be a wiki. And I wondered : how long will it take before we read
> somewhere : Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki ?
>
> Sooner than you might think.
>
> Just yesterday, someone reported a mistake at the French village pump
> : a castle was located at the wrong location on the new
> toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers<http://toolserver.org/%7Ekolossos/openlayers>map tool. That castle, called
> "Pierrefonds Castle", should be located in the Pierrefonds town, not
> in Senlis town, like the Windsor castle is located in the town of
> Windsor to the exclusion of any other English town.
>
> I thought this was the time to show the power of a wiki : a cool
> website everybody can edit, especially useful to instantly correct
> straightforward mistakes like that one.
>
> The toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers<http://toolserver.org/%7Ekolossos/openlayers>software is cute enough to
> provide "source: ru" at the bottom of the little popup window that
> pops up when you click on the wrongly located castle. I instantly
> corrected the wrong coordinates on the Russian language version of
> Wikipedia (1) which had the mistake.
>
> We are more or less 24 hours (19 hours, exactly) after I corrected the
> mistake, but the toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers<http://toolserver.org/%7Ekolossos/openlayers>is still wrong.
> This is not what a wiki is supposed to be.
>
> There are 2 potential reasons. A) The Russian Wikipedia uses "Flagged
> revisions" and my newbie edit might be ignored by whoever wants to
> ignore it because it is flagged as a non-flagged newbie edit.B) the
> toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers<http://toolserver.org/%7Ekolossos/openlayers>software might be too slow to
> perform updates.
>
> Whatever the reason, this is evidence that Wikipedia is changing into
> something that is not a wiki.
>
> I am wondering if the whole problem is not the sheer idea of having
> "developers" doing their job : "developping". Developping means
> changing. If you change a wiki, you have 99% of chances that what it
> changes into is not a wiki.
>
> This was my first anti-developer rant of 2011. Happy new year everybody.
>
> (1)
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_%28%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%29&action=historysubmit&diff=30694643&oldid=28135989
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by Teofilo
On 05/01/11 00:33, Teofilo wrote:
> We are more or less 24 hours (19 hours, exactly) after I corrected the
> mistake, but the toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers is still wrong.
> This is not what a wiki is supposed to be.

You seem to be getting confused between a wiki and some software
written by some Wikipedia user and not reviewed by anyone. If you
don't like the quality of it, you shouldn't link to it from the geo
templates.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Виктория-6
2011/1/4, Виктория <[hidden email]>:
> it had been patrolled  = [отпатрулированная версия] anyway.

Thanks!
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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
2011/1/5, Tim Starling <[hidden email]>:

> On 05/01/11 00:33, Teofilo wrote:
>> We are more or less 24 hours (19 hours, exactly) after I corrected the
>> mistake, but the toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers is still wrong.
>> This is not what a wiki is supposed to be.
>
> You seem to be getting confused between a wiki and some software
> written by some Wikipedia user and not reviewed by anyone. If you
> don't like the quality of it, you shouldn't link to it from the geo
> templates.
>
> -- Tim Starling

You are totally right, but let's see the problem from a different
point of view. Let's look at it from the user's point of view. This is
a feature closely associated with Wikipedia. German speaking users
encounter it everytime they visit a geography Wikipedia article, like
a city, a castle, a museum, and it is located in a prominent place not
far from the foremost top right angle of the page. Other language
wikipedias are in the process of implementing it. On the French
language wikipedia, it happens on railway stations, German cities, and
pages randomly using the "coord" template for specific reasons.

So it is a de facto Wikipedia software, whether you like it or not.
Toolserver.org is a Wikimedia website, and most people would think
that it is a safe software condoned by the Wikimedia Foundation (or by
the Wikimedia German chapter). It is so closely associated with
Wikipedia and Wikimedia that most people would think that this is the
direction the Wikimedia management is leading the project into for the
future.

If it can update quickly enough so that you get the "I can correct
straightforward mistakes straight away" kind of feeling, it is
perfect, and my congratulations go to the developers who made that
wonderful tool.

Can't we boost the toolserver.org server so that it can update more
quickly ? Or integrate that tool into the main Wikipedia server ? (I
have reservations about the way Openstreetmap deals with authorship in
its use of Creative Commons licenses, but let's forget this).

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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Виктория-6
2011/1/4, Виктория <[hidden email]>:
> it had been patrolled  = [отпатрулированная версия] anyway.

What about the message "Стабильная версия была проверена 28 сентября
2010. 1 изменение ожидает проверки." which is written now at the top
of the history tab (1), and google-translates into English as "Stable
version was tested on Sept. 28, 2010. 1, the change is awaiting
moderation" ?

(1) http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_(%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA)&action=history

I have visited Russia only once in my life. It was a long time ago at
the time of the USSR. I was making a long flight from Japan to Poland,
and had to stop overnight at a hotel inside Moscow airport. Although I
enjoyed the food, the beverage, the kindness of the stewardess, the
landscapes with snow, lakes, forests inside the airplane, I disliked
my stay at Moscow airport because people kept me waiting without
telling why or how long. I think this is what Wikimedia is looking
like with the so-called "flagged revisions" software : the USSR.

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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Kropotkine_113
Le mercredi 05 janvier 2011 à 18:31 +0200, Teofilo a écrit :
> I think this is what Wikimedia is looking
> like with the so-called "flagged revisions" software : the USSR.


J'hésite entre rire et pleurer mais, là, tu as atteint un véritable
sommet.

Je ne te comprends pas. Tu es de façon évidente quelqu'un d'intelligent.
D'autre part, personne ne peut contester ton attachement aux projets
Wikimedia et tu soulèves souvent des questions intéressantes, avec une
indéniable capacité à dénicher le diable dans les détails.

Alors comment peux-tu en arriver à dire des trucs aussi débiles ? Tu te
rends compte que plus personne ne t'écoute à cause de ça ? Que
l'outrance nuit à ta crédibilité ?

C'est surréaliste.

Kropotkine_113


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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Nathan Awrich
2011/1/5 Kropotkine_113 <[hidden email]>:

> Le mercredi 05 janvier 2011 à 18:31 +0200, Teofilo a écrit :
>> I think this is what Wikimedia is looking
>> like with the so-called "flagged revisions" software : the USSR.
>
>
> J'hésite entre rire et pleurer mais, là, tu as atteint un véritable
> sommet.
>
> Je ne te comprends pas. Tu es de façon évidente quelqu'un d'intelligent.
> D'autre part, personne ne peut contester ton attachement aux projets
> Wikimedia et tu soulèves souvent des questions intéressantes, avec une
> indéniable capacité à dénicher le diable dans les détails.
>
> Alors comment peux-tu en arriver à dire des trucs aussi débiles ? Tu te
> rends compte que plus personne ne t'écoute à cause de ça ? Que
> l'outrance nuit à ta crédibilité ?
>
> C'est surréaliste.
>
> Kropotkine_113
>


I agree that equating Wikipedia with the USSR is... ridiculous. I also
agree with the rest of your comments, particularly the strangely
self-contradicting nature of Teofilo's list posts. Having said that,
perhaps genuine advice would be better received when issued off-list.

Nathan

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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Виктория-6
In reply to this post by Teofilo
Theo,

I don't know why you are seeing an indeterminedly old version, you may try
to clean up your cache (=purge in the web address of your browser).
May be I didn't make myself clear enough: Flagged Revvs doesn't require to
wait for anything, you can only see the patrolling interface because you are
a registered user. If you were a reader accessing RuWiki from an IP you
wouldn't  even have known that there is a patrolled or unpatrolled version,
you'd just have seen the corrected coordinates.

You can compare Flagged Revvs to Soviet Union, after all,  Jaron Lanier is
sure that all wikipedians are "digital maoists" but there is a consensus in
the  RuWiki Community  that Flagged Revvs do more good then harm and it is a
step toward a better Wikipedia. Sorry, but I don't see how using a
non-wikimedia software and a cache version of a random page, which everybody
sees differently, proves anything.

Regards

Victoria



2011/1/5 Teofilo <[hidden email]>

> 2011/1/4, Виктория <[hidden email]>:
> > it had been patrolled  = [отпатрулированная версия] anyway.
>
> What about the message "Стабильная версия была проверена 28 сентября
> 2010. 1 изменение ожидает проверки." which is written now at the top
> of the history tab (1), and google-translates into English as "Stable
> version was tested on Sept. 28, 2010. 1, the change is awaiting
> moderation" ?
>
> (1)
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_(%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA)&action=history<http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9F%D1%8C%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_%28%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BA%29&action=history>
>
> I have visited Russia only once in my life. It was a long time ago at
> the time of the USSR. I was making a long flight from Japan to Poland,
> and had to stop overnight at a hotel inside Moscow airport. Although I
> enjoyed the food, the beverage, the kindness of the stewardess, the
> landscapes with snow, lakes, forests inside the airplane, I disliked
> my stay at Moscow airport because people kept me waiting without
> telling why or how long. I think this is what Wikimedia is looking
> like with the so-called "flagged revisions" software : the USSR.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Wikipedia, the Pedia that used to be a Wiki

Peter Gervai-5
2011/1/5 Виктория <[hidden email]>:
> You can compare Flagged Revvs to Soviet Union, after all,  Jaron Lanier is
etc.

I guess that the original poster has a point: we use external services
which may or may not be trivial to change or update.
It is not important which country, group or whatever entity runs them,
and it is indeed useful to have them.

What we maybe need is some standards regarding widely used externals.
Don't think anything fancy: all service should have a page on the
referenced wiki (or on tooldox.wikimedia.org or whatever) which
defines the service, its authors, their contacts, and specified the
data source, the updating process (if it requires more explanation,
like waiting for a revision to be flagged), the refreshment interval
and expected update of the data changed.

So if anyone see a bad entry can look up how to change, and how and
when the update goes live. Knowledge is power.

Peter

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