WikipediaP2P

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WikipediaP2P

Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
Hi,

I saw this project and I thought it was very interesting:

https://www.wikipediap2p.org/

Basically, it makes the clients connect to each other to share pages
between each other using webrtc before going to the centralized server.

It would probably be a bad idea to convert mobile devices into network
peers given the data restrictions and quality of connections but it seems
like something very interesting for the desktop clients.

Cheers
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Re: WikipediaP2P

Magnus Manske-2
It also sounds like a great way to expose your Wikipedia browsing to the
cloud...

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 5:01 PM Joaquin Oltra Hernandez <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I saw this project and I thought it was very interesting:
>
> https://www.wikipediap2p.org/
>
> Basically, it makes the clients connect to each other to share pages
> between each other using webrtc before going to the centralized server.
>
> It would probably be a bad idea to convert mobile devices into network
> peers given the data restrictions and quality of connections but it seems
> like something very interesting for the desktop clients.
>
> Cheers
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: WikipediaP2P

bawolff
In reply to this post by Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
See also related discussion last year
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-November/084143.html

Personally I think this whole thing is a bad idea
* Its questionable how much this would actually save anything. Cached
anon hits are pretty cheap
* This basically doesn't do cach invalidation. Lets just have
vandalism stay around for long periods of time
* Probably makes it much easier for third parties to determine what
you are browsing. (Censorship resistant p2p networks is still an open
research problem last I checked)
* Probably makes it easier for adversaries to selectively censor
specific articles
[I haven't looked at the implementation, but I'm going to guess here]
* Questionable how it would verify content is legit. What's stopping a
malicious actor from putting random malicious js into the p2p network,
or someone replacing articles with biased versions.

--
bawolff

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I saw this project and I thought it was very interesting:
>
> https://www.wikipediap2p.org/
>
> Basically, it makes the clients connect to each other to share pages
> between each other using webrtc before going to the centralized server.
>
> It would probably be a bad idea to convert mobile devices into network
> peers given the data restrictions and quality of connections but it seems
> like something very interesting for the desktop clients.
>
> Cheers
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: WikipediaP2P

Gabriel Wicke-3
For offline / poor connectivity use cases, I am more excited about
https://wiki.mozilla.org/FlyWeb. In contrast to WebRTC based solutions,
this enables completely local discovery and sharing of resources, without
requiring an internet connection.

WebRTC based P2P CDNs are not very useful for the most common Wikipedia
session, which is a single page lookup after following a link from a search
engine. They are more useful for live video streaming, where session
length, resource size, and number of simultaneous users interested in the
same chunks is more favorable.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:33 AM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> See also related discussion last year
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-November/084143.html
>
> Personally I think this whole thing is a bad idea
> * Its questionable how much this would actually save anything. Cached
> anon hits are pretty cheap
> * This basically doesn't do cach invalidation. Lets just have
> vandalism stay around for long periods of time
> * Probably makes it much easier for third parties to determine what
> you are browsing. (Censorship resistant p2p networks is still an open
> research problem last I checked)
> * Probably makes it easier for adversaries to selectively censor
> specific articles
> [I haven't looked at the implementation, but I'm going to guess here]
> * Questionable how it would verify content is legit. What's stopping a
> malicious actor from putting random malicious js into the p2p network,
> or someone replacing articles with biased versions.
>
> --
> bawolff
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I saw this project and I thought it was very interesting:
> >
> > https://www.wikipediap2p.org/
> >
> > Basically, it makes the clients connect to each other to share pages
> > between each other using webrtc before going to the centralized server.
> >
> > It would probably be a bad idea to convert mobile devices into network
> > peers given the data restrictions and quality of connections but it seems
> > like something very interesting for the desktop clients.
> >
> > Cheers
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Gabriel Wicke
Principal Engineer, Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: WikipediaP2P

Pine W
I'd love to have Wikimedia content not be dependent on WMF servers, but as
noted by others, there are a lot of problems to address, including privacy
and security issues. At some point I think it might be good to have an
office hour or some other kind of meeting about this subject to discuss
possibilities. I won't be involved in this for the for the foreseeable
future due to the many other issues that are on my task list, but +1 moral
support. I'd like to see reduced dependency of Wikimedia content on WMF
included in the WMF strategic plan.

Pine


On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Gabriel Wicke <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> For offline / poor connectivity use cases, I am more excited about
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/FlyWeb. In contrast to WebRTC based solutions,
> this enables completely local discovery and sharing of resources, without
> requiring an internet connection.
>
> WebRTC based P2P CDNs are not very useful for the most common Wikipedia
> session, which is a single page lookup after following a link from a search
> engine. They are more useful for live video streaming, where session
> length, resource size, and number of simultaneous users interested in the
> same chunks is more favorable.
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:33 AM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > See also related discussion last year
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-
> November/084143.html
> >
> > Personally I think this whole thing is a bad idea
> > * Its questionable how much this would actually save anything. Cached
> > anon hits are pretty cheap
> > * This basically doesn't do cach invalidation. Lets just have
> > vandalism stay around for long periods of time
> > * Probably makes it much easier for third parties to determine what
> > you are browsing. (Censorship resistant p2p networks is still an open
> > research problem last I checked)
> > * Probably makes it easier for adversaries to selectively censor
> > specific articles
> > [I haven't looked at the implementation, but I'm going to guess here]
> > * Questionable how it would verify content is legit. What's stopping a
> > malicious actor from putting random malicious js into the p2p network,
> > or someone replacing articles with biased versions.
> >
> > --
> > bawolff
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Joaquin Oltra Hernandez
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I saw this project and I thought it was very interesting:
> > >
> > > https://www.wikipediap2p.org/
> > >
> > > Basically, it makes the clients connect to each other to share pages
> > > between each other using webrtc before going to the centralized server.
> > >
> > > It would probably be a bad idea to convert mobile devices into network
> > > peers given the data restrictions and quality of connections but it
> seems
> > > like something very interesting for the desktop clients.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gabriel Wicke
> Principal Engineer, Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: WikipediaP2P

Chad
In reply to this post by bawolff
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:33 AM bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> See also related discussion last year
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-November/084143.html
>
>
And the year before, and before that, and before that... it's a perennial
proposal ;-)


> Personally I think this whole thing is a bad idea
> * Its questionable how much this would actually save anything. Cached
> anon hits are pretty cheap
>

Indeed.


> * This basically doesn't do cach invalidation. Lets just have
> vandalism stay around for long periods of time
>

Yep, that's always been a problem in these proposals.

* Probably makes it much easier for third parties to determine what
> you are browsing. (Censorship resistant p2p networks is still an open
> research problem last I checked)
>

Plus this.


> * Probably makes it easier for adversaries to selectively censor
> specific articles
> [I haven't looked at the implementation, but I'm going to guess here]
>

Basically because of the above.


> * Questionable how it would verify content is legit. What's stopping a
> malicious actor from putting random malicious js into the p2p network,
> or someone replacing articles with biased versions.
>
>
Same thing here. That being said....I'm curious if there's some sort of
middle ground here. I wonder how much (c|w)ould be saved by serving
static assets (CSS, UI images, etc etc) via P2P. Prolly not much in the
US/Europe, but in places with poor latency this could be interesting.

-Chad
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