You know, we really should shift to Windows

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You know, we really should shift to Windows

David Gerard-2
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Marius Hoch
Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
would be rather funny)?
At least they link to
https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0 ("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have any production servers.

Cheers,

Marius

On Wed, 2013-08-21 at 15:44 +0100, David Gerard wrote:

> Analysts agree!
> http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud
>
> >_<
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Paul Selitskas
This very article seems like yet another "Hey check out my brand new
Wikipedia redesign!" story. No, you're not wrong. They took the170/385
numbers from the Labs stats.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 6:12 PM, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
> would be rather funny)?
> At least they link to
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0 ("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have any production servers.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, 2013-08-21 at 15:44 +0100, David Gerard wrote:
>> Analysts agree!
>> http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud
>>
>> >_<
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Marius Hoch
On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
> would be rather funny)?
> At least they link to
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0 ("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have any production servers.



Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
it doesn't just vanish ;-)


- d.

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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Randall Farmer
Sadly they're moderating comments. I tweeted at the author, with links to
WMF Ganglia as backup, and he definitely doesn't believe me; maybe
something from a WMFer would help, if anyone thinks it's worth correcting:
https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370090365354655744

Going by the Ganglia pages, actual Wikipedia has at lesat >2x the *RAM*
that their scenario has *disk*. Pretty fun. (If you're curious, Ganglia's
front page says it's tracking 14,744 cores on 988 hosts and 40T of RAM.
Their scenario has <20T disk. There may be additional capacity not in that
Ganglia setup, though it seemed to cover the obvious stuff.)


On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
> > would be rather funny)?
> > At least they link to
> >
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have
> any production servers.
>
>
>
> Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
> it doesn't just vanish ;-)
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Tilman Bayer
https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370212655996235776 - he
says that this was produced in collaboration with Wikimedian John
Vandenberg (CC'ed), who might be able to provide more information on
how the numbers were generated.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Randall Farmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sadly they're moderating comments. I tweeted at the author, with links to
> WMF Ganglia as backup, and he definitely doesn't believe me; maybe
> something from a WMFer would help, if anyone thinks it's worth correcting:
> https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370090365354655744
>
> Going by the Ganglia pages, actual Wikipedia has at lesat >2x the *RAM*
> that their scenario has *disk*. Pretty fun. (If you're curious, Ganglia's
> front page says it's tracking 14,744 cores on 988 hosts and 40T of RAM.
> Their scenario has <20T disk. There may be additional capacity not in that
> Ganglia setup, though it seemed to cover the obvious stuff.)
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
>> > would be rather funny)?
>> > At least they link to
>> >
>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have
>> any production servers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
>> it doesn't just vanish ;-)
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Greg Grossmeier-2
In reply to this post by Randall Farmer
Threw my title around, see if that helps. :)

<quote name="Randall Farmer" date="2013-08-21" time="09:02:01 -0700">

> Sadly they're moderating comments. I tweeted at the author, with links to
> WMF Ganglia as backup, and he definitely doesn't believe me; maybe
> something from a WMFer would help, if anyone thinks it's worth correcting:
> https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370090365354655744
>
> Going by the Ganglia pages, actual Wikipedia has at lesat >2x the *RAM*
> that their scenario has *disk*. Pretty fun. (If you're curious, Ganglia's
> front page says it's tracking 14,744 cores on 988 hosts and 40T of RAM.
> Their scenario has <20T disk. There may be additional capacity not in that
> Ganglia setup, though it seemed to cover the obvious stuff.)
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
> > > would be rather funny)?
> > > At least they link to
> > >
> > https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have
> > any production servers.
> >
> >
> >
> > Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
> > it doesn't just vanish ;-)
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
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| identi.ca: @greg                A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |

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OQ
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

OQ
In reply to this post by Tilman Bayer
Cloud Company posts blog about how you should move to the cloud; also,
water is wet, the sky is blue, more at 11.


On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370212655996235776 - he
> says that this was produced in collaboration with Wikimedian John
> Vandenberg (CC'ed), who might be able to provide more information on
> how the numbers were generated.
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Randall Farmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Sadly they're moderating comments. I tweeted at the author, with links to
> > WMF Ganglia as backup, and he definitely doesn't believe me; maybe
> > something from a WMFer would help, if anyone thinks it's worth
> correcting:
> > https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370090365354655744
> >
> > Going by the Ganglia pages, actual Wikipedia has at lesat >2x the *RAM*
> > that their scenario has *disk*. Pretty fun. (If you're curious, Ganglia's
> > front page says it's tracking 14,744 cores on 988 hosts and 40T of RAM.
> > Their scenario has <20T disk. There may be additional capacity not in
> that
> > Ganglia setup, though it seemed to cover the obvious stuff.)
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
> >> > would be rather funny)?
> >> > At least they link to
> >> >
> >>
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0("[...]
> that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have
> >> any production servers.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
> >> it doesn't just vanish ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> - d.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Tilman Bayer
> Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
> Wikimedia Foundation
> IRC (Freenode): HaeB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Annother recent publication that similarly used Wikipedia as an
example to simulate the alleged benefits of a different hosting model:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236942031_Symbiotic_Coupling_of_P2P_and_Cloud_Systems_The_Wikipedia_Case/file/5046351d1d1c3f051c.pdf
(covered in the July Wikimedia Research Newsletter)

It's by two German computer scientists who conclude that the Wikimedia
Foundation "can reduce the traffic needed for article lookups in case
of Wikipedia up to 72%" by having participants in a P2P network
storing and serving some articles from their machines, while still
also serving them from a central installation (cloud). I seem to
recall that this kind of proposal for Wikipedia was quite popular in
like the mid 2000s (when P2P was more in fashion and WMF had less
money), to the point that Brion or Tim or someone else involved with
the actual hosting wrote a rebuttal, which I can't find any more.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 7:44 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Analysts agree!
> http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud
>
>>_<
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



--
Tilman Bayer
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Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>

> http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud

How many machines do we have right now? Couple hundred?

What's a Win2008 server license going for?

What percentage of our budget is that, anyway?  50?

Cheers,
-- jra
--
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Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Michał Łazowik
In reply to this post by Randall Farmer
Wiadomość napisana przez Randall Farmer <[hidden email]> w dniu 21 sie 2013, o godz. 18:02:

> Sadly they're moderating comments. I tweeted at the author, with links to
> WMF Ganglia as backup, and he definitely doesn't believe me; maybe
> something from a WMFer would help, if anyone thinks it's worth correcting:
> https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370090365354655744
>
> Going by the Ganglia pages, actual Wikipedia has at lesat >2x the *RAM*
> that their scenario has *disk*. Pretty fun. (If you're curious, Ganglia's
> front page says it's tracking 14,744 cores on 988 hosts and 40T of RAM.
> Their scenario has <20T disk. There may be additional capacity not in that
> Ganglia setup, though it seemed to cover the obvious stuff.)
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 21 August 2013 16:12, hoo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Am I wrong or did they actually calculate that for labs only (which
>>> would be rather funny)?
>>> At least they link to
>>>
>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Ask/-5B-5BResource-20Type::instance-5D-5D/-3FInstance-20Name/-3FInstance-20Type/-3FProject/-3FImage-20Id/-3FFQDN/-3FLaunch-20Time/-3FPuppet-20Class/-3FModification-20date/-3FInstance-20Host/-3FNumber-20of-20CPUs/-3FRAM-20Size/-3FAmount-20of-20Storage/searchlabel%3Dinstances/offset%3D0("[...] that run on up to 385 instances [...]") which AFAIK doesn't have
>> any production servers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Heh. Please do post a comment of correction and post it here too, so
>> it doesn't just vanish ;-)
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>

Now there is an update [0] that says: "We learned today that the data set we used for this post might not be correct.".
No it's not like they've taken the wrong data - the data they've taken is not correct! Shame on you data!

Michał

[0] http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud-update
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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Tilman Bayer
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/370212655996235776 - he
> says that this was produced in collaboration with Wikimedian John
> Vandenberg (CC'ed), who might be able to provide more information on
> how the numbers were generated.
>
For some reason, that tweet seems to have been deleted within the last
hour, but there is some earlier discussion from that collaboration at
https://twitter.com/hassankhosseini/status/283944238473936897 , with
other interesting comments ("Running 450 servers for Wikipedia, 150
staff. On AWS you could run that with 2-4 sysadmins")

--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Marc-Andre
On 08/21/2013 01:24 PM, Tilman Bayer wrote:
> "Running 450 servers for Wikipedia, 150
> staff. On AWS you could run that with 2-4 sysadmins"

Obvious troll is obvious.

Anyone who says something this with a straight face is either insane or
has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.  The one thing that
always struck me the most about the Wikimedia projects is how incredible
that a top-10 website could survive which such a minuscule staff.

Mind you, we accumulated a technical debt by being so lean for so long,
and are only now catching up thanks to the focus on shoring up
engineering in the past two years.

-- Marc


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Re: You know, we really should shift to Windows

Martijn Hoekstra
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Jay Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/cloud-cost-analysis-how-much-could-wikipedia-save-cloud
>
> How many machines do we have right now? Couple hundred?
>
> What's a Win2008 server license going for?
>
> What percentage of our budget is that, anyway?  50?
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>


Without going in to all the ridiculousness posted by this silly blog, do
note that windows azure offers Linux VM's. This article is not actually
about a Windows infrastructure.



> --
> Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink
> [hidden email]
> Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA               #natog                      +1 727 647
> 1274
>
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