YouTube and Creative Commons

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YouTube and Creative Commons

Jon Harald Søby
With the news that YouTube will start letting users choose to upload their
videos under CC-by, what will be the way we deal with it? Should we open for
embedding videos directly from YouTube, or should they be uploaded to
Commons first? The only reason I can see for not allowing embedding is that
embedding would be promoting YouTube; but that is still much better than the
alternative, IMO, which would be a big hassle for editors, and could take a
huge chunk of our resources (and when there is a good alternative like in
this case, why should we burden ourselves with that?). Any thoughts?

--
mvh
Jon Harald Søby <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by>
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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Tanvir Rahman
We have uploaded images from Flickr, and Commons supports image formates
like, jpg, png, svg, and others, but for videos it supports only ogv
formate. So, I think most of the YouTube videos need to be converted to ogv
(from mpeg or flv). Can we do that automatically with script? Currently we
have Flickr upload tools and bots, can we have YouTube uploader bots?

Regards,

--
Tanvir Rahman
[[User:Wikitanvir]]
On Wikimedia Projects

2011/6/3 Jon Harald Søby <[hidden email]>

> With the news that YouTube will start letting users choose to upload their
> videos under CC-by, what will be the way we deal with it? Should we open
> for
> embedding videos directly from YouTube, or should they be uploaded to
> Commons first? The only reason I can see for not allowing embedding is that
> embedding would be promoting YouTube; but that is still much better than
> the
> alternative, IMO, which would be a big hassle for editors, and could take a
> huge chunk of our resources (and when there is a good alternative like in
> this case, why should we burden ourselves with that?). Any thoughts?
>
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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

David Gerard-2
On 3 June 2011 15:45, Tanvir Rahman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We have uploaded images from Flickr, and Commons supports image formates
> like, jpg, png, svg, and others, but for videos it supports only ogv
> formate. So, I think most of the YouTube videos need to be converted to ogv
> (from mpeg or flv). Can we do that automatically with script? Currently we
> have Flickr upload tools and bots, can we have YouTube uploader bots?


WebM videos on YouTube are in a free format. Do we accept WebM yet?


- d.

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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Tanvir Rahman
>
> WebM videos on YouTube are in a free format. Do we accept WebM yet?
>

From Commons page [1]: "WebM support will likely be added in the future. See
this bug report [2] for its current status and this test wiki [3] for
implementation tests."

So, as of now, we don't support WebM. :S

Regards,

--
Tanvir Rahman
[[User:Wikitanvir]]
On Wikimedia Projects

[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Video#Video_formats
[2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23888
[3] http://prototype.wikimedia.org/timedmedia/Main_Page
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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Mono mium
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
No, we don't. Our video support is laughable.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 8:09 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3 June 2011 15:45, Tanvir Rahman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We have uploaded images from Flickr, and Commons supports image formates
> > like, jpg, png, svg, and others, but for videos it supports only ogv
> > formate. So, I think most of the YouTube videos need to be converted to
> ogv
> > (from mpeg or flv). Can we do that automatically with script? Currently
> we
> > have Flickr upload tools and bots, can we have YouTube uploader bots?
>
>
> WebM videos on YouTube are in a free format. Do we accept WebM yet?
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Platonides
In reply to this post by Jon Harald Søby
Jon Harald Søby wrote:
> With the news that YouTube will start letting users choose to upload their
> videos under CC-by, what will be the way we deal with it? Should we open for
> embedding videos directly from YouTube, or should they be uploaded to
> Commons first? The only reason I can see for not allowing embedding is that
> embedding would be promoting YouTube; but that is still much better than the
> alternative, IMO, which would be a big hassle for editors, and could take a
> huge chunk of our resources (and when there is a good alternative like in
> this case, why should we burden ourselves with that?). Any thoughts?

We should not allow YouTube hotlinking.
That would be reliying on a third party for our contents.
We would need to differenciate between free/unfree videos before
allowing embedding.
Will they provide a history of license transitions? (how to check if a
video was ever free).
Too easy to slip a vandal video and embed it (eg. we can't block the
uploader).
A third party shall not be able to know what articles our visitors are
reading / watching (ie. privacy policy).
I am not aware of any limitation in our resources for serving the videos
ourselves.

On the other hand, we should help and encourage migration of free videos
to Wikimedia Commons.
Actually, there's nothing new in how to proceed, this is just the same
case as Flickr but with videos instead of images.


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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Jon Harald Søby
2011/6/3 Jon Harald Søby <[hidden email]>:
> The only reason I can see for not allowing embedding is that
> embedding would be promoting YouTube

Embedding YouTube videos in Wikimedia content would send IP addresses
and other information about Wikimedia users to Google.  This is
against Wikimedia's privacy policy, as I understand it, and it would
certainly upset a lot of people.  I think it's extremely unlikely to
happen.

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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Aude-2
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> 2011/6/3 Jon Harald Søby <[hidden email]>:
> > The only reason I can see for not allowing embedding is that
> > embedding would be promoting YouTube
>
> Embedding YouTube videos in Wikimedia content would send IP addresses
> and other information about Wikimedia users to Google.  This is
> against Wikimedia's privacy policy, as I understand it, and it would
> certainly upset a lot of people.  I think it's extremely unlikely to
> happen.
>

Aside from the very real privacy issue, YouTube videos can disappear at any
time.  I would much rather we host them on Commons.

A youtube2commons script is pretty easy to implement, but the big hindrance
is the 100 MB upload limit on Commons.  What are the plans (if any) to
increase this? or help facilitate us (e.g. via the api, from the toolserver,
...) in uploading video and files that exceed the limit?

Cheers,
Katie





>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] YouTube and Creative Commons

Brion Vibber
(I'm not sure offhand if I'm set up to cross-post to Foundation-l; if this
doesn't make it, somebody please CC a mention if necessary. Thanks!)

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:42 PM, aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aside from the very real privacy issue, YouTube videos can disappear at any
> time.  I would much rather we host them on Commons.
>
> A youtube2commons script is pretty easy to implement, but the big hindrance
> is the 100 MB upload limit on Commons.  What are the plans (if any) to
> increase this? or help facilitate us (e.g. via the api, from the
> toolserver,
> ...) in uploading video and files that exceed the limit?
>

There's been some ongoing work on TimedMediaHandler extension which will
replace the older OggHandler (this provides the nicer video player we've got
hacked in on Commons, and some automatic transcoding for different
resolutions in the free Theora & WebM formats). This still needs a little
more work, and probably some improvements on the actual transcoding
management and such, but this will help a bit in supporting larger files (eg
by transcoding high-res files to lower-res they're more easily viewable).
This isn't ready to go just yet though, and there's still the issue of
actually uploading the files.

Basic uploads by URL work in theory, but I'm not sure the deployment status.
Background large-file downloads are currently disabled in the latest code
and needs to be reimplemented if that's to be used.

For straight uploads, regular uploads of large files are a bit problematic
in general (they hit memory limits and such and have to make it through
caching proxies and whatnot), but there's also been some new work on
improved chunked uploads for FireFogg (and perhaps for general modern
browsers that can do fancier uploads). Michael Dale can probably give some
updates on this, but it'll be a bit yet before it's ready to go.

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] YouTube and Creative Commons

Michael Dale-4
Comments inline:

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (I'm not sure offhand if I'm set up to cross-post to Foundation-l; if this
> doesn't make it, somebody please CC a mention if necessary. Thanks!)
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:42 PM, aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Aside from the very real privacy issue, YouTube videos can disappear at
> any
> > time.  I would much rather we host them on Commons.
> >
> > A youtube2commons script is pretty easy to implement,
>


yes a basic youtube2commons script was posted by Jan on wikivideo-l list
recently:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikivideo-l/2011-May/000056.html But as
you point out we really need to work on increasing the upload size limit.



>
> There's been some ongoing work on TimedMediaHandler extension which will
> replace the older OggHandler
>


Yes, been hammering away on associated bugs. People can help by testing and
filing bugs :) thedj has helped file a lot of bugs, and Brion too recently
has been taking a look at the transcoding side of things and Roan did a good
first pass review and thous suggestions have since been integrated.  I hope
to have a new version up prototype soon that integrates all the known
requested features / bugs listed in bugzilla some time next week. (with the
exception of features tagged for version 1.1 like server side srt parsing
and timed wikitext -> html -> srt text with html tag removal )  Once I get
this update out to prototype I will try and do a blog post at that point to
invite people to put test it out.



> Basic uploads by URL work in theory, but I'm not sure the deployment
> status.
> Background large-file downloads are currently disabled in the latest code
> and needs to be reimplemented if that's to be used.
>


Yea we have bug:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20512tracking
re-enabling copy by url. Once we have webm TMH deployed it would
make for simple youtube cc content with importing without conversion :)


>
> For straight uploads, regular uploads of large files are a bit problematic
> in general (they hit memory limits and such and have to make it through
> caching proxies and whatnot), but there's also been some new work on
> improved chunked uploads for FireFogg (and perhaps for general modern
> browsers that can do fancier uploads). Michael Dale can probably give some
> updates on this, but it'll be a bit yet before it's ready to go.
>

Yes we are reimplementing the firefogg chunk uploading as ResumableUpload (
name of new extension ) in a way that allows both HTML5 XHR browsers to use
the chunk protocol in addition to firefogg ( if your converting video from a
proprietary source ). In addition we had disscutions at the Berlin
Hack-a-ton that cleared up some confusion about the concerns with the
firefogg protocol and modified it to explicitly state the byte ranges of
chunks in requests and server responses. Also had a brief chat with Russell
on IRC, so that we can support this append chunks system as we move to the
swiftMedia back end.

--michael
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Re: [Wikitech-l] YouTube and Creative Commons

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
A nice script to download YouTube videos is youtube-dl[1]. Link that with a
flv/mp4 -> ogg converter and an uploader to Commons is trivial.

[1] http://rg3.github.com/youtube-dl/

2011/6/4 Michael Dale <[hidden email]>

> Comments inline:
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > (I'm not sure offhand if I'm set up to cross-post to Foundation-l; if
> this
> > doesn't make it, somebody please CC a mention if necessary. Thanks!)
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:42 PM, aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Aside from the very real privacy issue, YouTube videos can disappear at
> > any
> > > time.  I would much rather we host them on Commons.
> > >
> > > A youtube2commons script is pretty easy to implement,
> >
>
>
> yes a basic youtube2commons script was posted by Jan on wikivideo-l list
> recently:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikivideo-l/2011-May/000056.html But
> as
> you point out we really need to work on increasing the upload size limit.
>
>
>
> >
> > There's been some ongoing work on TimedMediaHandler extension which will
> > replace the older OggHandler
> >
>
>
> Yes, been hammering away on associated bugs. People can help by testing and
> filing bugs :) thedj has helped file a lot of bugs, and Brion too recently
> has been taking a look at the transcoding side of things and Roan did a
> good
> first pass review and thous suggestions have since been integrated.  I hope
> to have a new version up prototype soon that integrates all the known
> requested features / bugs listed in bugzilla some time next week. (with the
> exception of features tagged for version 1.1 like server side srt parsing
> and timed wikitext -> html -> srt text with html tag removal )  Once I get
> this update out to prototype I will try and do a blog post at that point to
> invite people to put test it out.
>
>
>
> > Basic uploads by URL work in theory, but I'm not sure the deployment
> > status.
> > Background large-file downloads are currently disabled in the latest code
> > and needs to be reimplemented if that's to be used.
> >
>
>
> Yea we have bug:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20512tracking
> re-enabling copy by url. Once we have webm TMH deployed it would
> make for simple youtube cc content with importing without conversion :)
>
>
> >
> > For straight uploads, regular uploads of large files are a bit
> problematic
> > in general (they hit memory limits and such and have to make it through
> > caching proxies and whatnot), but there's also been some new work on
> > improved chunked uploads for FireFogg (and perhaps for general modern
> > browsers that can do fancier uploads). Michael Dale can probably give
> some
> > updates on this, but it'll be a bit yet before it's ready to go.
> >
>
> Yes we are reimplementing the firefogg chunk uploading as ResumableUpload (
> name of new extension ) in a way that allows both HTML5 XHR browsers to use
> the chunk protocol in addition to firefogg ( if your converting video from
> a
> proprietary source ). In addition we had disscutions at the Berlin
> Hack-a-ton that cleared up some confusion about the concerns with the
> firefogg protocol and modified it to explicitly state the byte ranges of
> chunks in requests and server responses. Also had a brief chat with Russell
> on IRC, so that we can support this append chunks system as we move to the
> swiftMedia back end.
>
> --michael
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: YouTube and Creative Commons

Mike DuPont
In reply to this post by Tanvir Rahman
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Tanvir Rahman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> formate. So, I think most of the YouTube videos need to be converted to ogv
> (from mpeg or flv). Can we do that automatically with script?

ffmpeg and or mencoder can do this,
in theory it could run on toolserver, but those tools burn cpu big time.
mike

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Re: [Wikitech-l] YouTube and Creative Commons

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Michael Dale-4
On 4 June 2011 17:47, Michael Dale <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> There's been some ongoing work on TimedMediaHandler extension which will
>> replace the older OggHandler

> Yes, been hammering away on associated bugs. People can help by testing and
> filing bugs :)


A question that wasn't clear from reading the bug: why is reading a
file format (WebM) blocked on the entire Timed Media Handler?


- d.

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