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bold and italic

Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu
Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text
and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this
problem?
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Re: bold and italic

Ryan Biesemeyer
Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running?
Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they could
be contributing factors.

You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like
#mediawiki on IRC:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC

On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a
> text
> and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this
> problem?
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: bold and italic

Alex Brollo
>
> On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a
> > text
> > and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this
> > problem?
>

This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about
server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like
<b>, </b>, <i>,</i> instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a
great advantage since they are "well-formed tags" (even if they are
"deprecated html tags"), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make
much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. Sometimes I found almost
impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian
texts by a script.
--
Alex
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Re: bold and italic

Platonides
Alex Brollo wrote:
>>
>> On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a
>>> text
>>> and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this
>>> problem?

Do you have magic quotes or another module "helpfully" trying to avoid
sql injections?


> This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about
> server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like
> <b>, </b>, <i>,</i> instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a
> great advantage since they are "well-formed tags" (even if they are
> "deprecated html tags"), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make
> much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts.

You can use <b> and <i> in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into
<b> and <i>.


> Sometimes I found almost
> impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian
> texts by a script.

Our rules to convert apostrophes are quite hard. The only way to do it
right would be to reinterpret Parser::doQuotes() in your script.




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Re: bold and italic

Svip
On 12 May 2010 13:33, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alex Brollo wrote:

>> This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about
>> server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like
>> <b>, </b>, <i>,</i> instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a
>> great advantage since they are "well-formed tags" (even if they are
>> "deprecated html tags"), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make
>> much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts.
>
> You can use <b> and <i> in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into
> <b> and <i>.

Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into <strong> and <em> or
better yet, <span style="font-weight: bold"> and <span
style="font-style: italic;"> ?

It could still accept <b> and <i>, but translate them into correct HTML tags.

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Re: bold and italic

Platonides
Svip wrote:

> On 12 May 2010 13:33, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Alex Brollo wrote:
>
>>> This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about
>>> server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like
>>> <b>, </b>, <i>,</i> instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a
>>> great advantage since they are "well-formed tags" (even if they are
>>> "deprecated html tags"), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make
>>> much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts.
>>
>> You can use <b> and <i> in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into
>> <b> and <i>.
>
> Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into <strong> and <em> or
> better yet, <span style="font-weight: bold"> and <span
> style="font-style: italic;"> ?
>
> It could still accept <b> and <i>, but translate them into correct HTML tags.

Because not all '' wants to emphasize nor all ''' to make it strong.
Old mediawiki did use <strong> and <em> but it was changed for the above
reasons.
You could use <span style="font-weight: bold">, but what's the point of
that?
Using <b> and <i> where what you really want is to make it bold and
italic isn't deprecated.



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Re: bold and italic

Svip
On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could use <span style="font-weight: bold">, but what's the point of
> that?

Because it would be correct HTML.

> Using <b> and <i> where what you really want is to make it bold and
> italic isn't deprecated.

Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the
HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content.
Let CSS take care of that.  Of course, you could do <span class="i">
and <span class="b"> instead, to make it neater.  And it would follow
the standard too.

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Re: bold and italic

Conrad Irwin-3


On 05/12/2010 01:11 PM, Svip wrote:
> On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You could use <span style="font-weight: bold">, but what's the point of
>> that?
>
> Because it would be correct HTML.

It's foul HTML... The whole point is that you say what you mean, not
what it should look like.

>
>> Using <b> and <i> where what you really want is to make it bold and
>> italic isn't deprecated.
>
> Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the
> HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content.
> Let CSS take care of that.  Of course, you could do <span class="i">
> and <span class="b"> instead, to make it neater.  And it would follow
> the standard too.

It isn't deprecated.

Conrad
>
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Re: bold and italic

Platonides
In reply to this post by Svip
Svip wrote:

> On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You could use <span style="font-weight: bold">, but what's the point of
>> that?
>
> Because it would be correct HTML.
>
>> Using <b> and <i> where what you really want is to make it bold and
>> italic isn't deprecated.
>
> Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the
> HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content.
> Let CSS take care of that.  Of course, you could do <span class="i">
> and <span class="b"> instead, to make it neater.  And it would follow
> the standard too.

{{reference needed}}

You should use CSS instead of <b> and <i> but if the meaning is "make
this bold" (as is the case from mediawiki, where we can't infer any more
relationship), it is perfectly fine to use <b>. As opposed to <s>, which
*is* deprecated.


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Re: bold and italic

Svip
In reply to this post by Conrad Irwin-3
On 12 May 2010 14:24, Conrad Irwin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/12/2010 01:11 PM, Svip wrote:
>> On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> You could use <span style="font-weight: bold">, but what's the point of
>>> that?
>>
>> Because it would be correct HTML.
>
> It's foul HTML... The whole point is that you say what you mean, not
> what it should look like.

How is bold and italic things you say?  Maybe my own language isn't
that nuanced.

>>> Using <b> and <i> where what you really want is to make it bold and
>>> italic isn't deprecated.
>>
>> Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the
>> HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content.
>> Let CSS take care of that.  Of course, you could do <span class="i">
>> and <span class="b"> instead, to make it neater.  And it would follow
>> the standard too.
>
> It isn't deprecated.

Okay, correct, but it is 'discouraged'.  They even removed them in
XHTML 2.0, not that anyone uses that.  Though, I don't think it is
going out of HTML5.

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Re: bold and italic

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Svip
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about
> server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like
> <b>, </b>, <i>,</i> instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''?

No, it's much easier.  <b> and <i> are handled in one pass with all
the other HTML elements, ''' and '' require their own horrible hacky
unpredictable pass in the parser.  ''' and '' are intended to be more
user-friendly, not more robot-friendly.  If we could kill them now,
I'd be all in favor, but it's way too late for that.

> The former have a
> great advantage since they are "well-formed tags"

They don't have to be well-formed.  <b><i>Hi there!</b></i> is "valid"
wiki markup, in that it will do what you want and nothing complains
about it.  You can also omit closing tags.

> (even if they are "deprecated html tags"),

<b> and <i> are not deprecated in any standard we care about.

> while wiki markup is not at all; this would make
> much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. Sometimes I found almost
> impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian
> texts by a script.

Yes, it's pretty terrible.  Your only reliable bet is to
reverse-engineer doQuotes() from includes/parser/Parser.php.  Although
of course that's run after various other passes are already done,
particularly preprocessing, so even then it won't be totally reliable.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into <strong> and <em>

This is completely wrong.  <b>/<i> originally meant "make this
bold/italic, for no particular reason".  This is what people actually
mean when they type '' and ''', so pretending they necessarily want
emphasis is wrong.  Wordpress does this -- they have buttons that look
like the bold/italic buttons from Word or whatnot, but actually create
<strong> and <em>.  That defeats the entire point of using
<strong>/<em> instead of <b>/<i>.  It's standards cargo-culting.

> or
> better yet, <span style="font-weight: bold"> and <span
> style="font-style: italic;"> ?

These have the exact same semantics as <b> and <i>, but are much
longer, so there's no point in any practical sense.  We should try to
follow standards even if they don't make much sense (as long as
they're not too harmful), just to be supportive and pro-standards and
whatever.  But we don't need to do stupid things that *aren't*
actually required by standards, and this isn't.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Svip <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Okay, correct, but it is 'discouraged'.  They even removed them in
> XHTML 2.0, not that anyone uses that.  Though, I don't think it is
> going out of HTML5.

<b> and <i> are not deprecated or removed or discouraged in HTML5, or
in XHTML 1.0 Transitional, which are the standards we use.  You can
read the HTML5 definitions at
<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-i-element>.
 They're cleverly defined to be semantic elements whose semantics are
"whatever people use bold or italics for":

"The i element represents a span of text in an alternate voice or
mood, or otherwise offset from the normal prose, such as a taxonomic
designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another
language, a thought, a ship name, or some other prose whose typical
typographic presentation is italicized."

"The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset
from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as
key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other
spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened."

See, it's semantic!  :P  The examples there (for both elements) do
highlight a lot of cases where you really do need bold or italics but
it's not for emphasis or anything else we have an actual tag for.
Using <span style="whatever"> in all those cases would be silly.

According to the HTML5 spec, authors SHOULD use (or are encouraged to
consider using) <b>/<i> only when there's no more suitable replacement
like <strong> or <em>.  They MUST not use <strong> or <em> for
anything other than emphasis (see
<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#semantics-0>).
 But we can't enforce either of those at the software level, so it's
up to users to comply themselves.  If they don't, we should at least
have them violate the SHOULD/"encouraged to consider" instead of the
MUST, if you want to do standards-lawyering.

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Re: bold and italic

Alex Brollo
In reply to this post by Svip
Well, as some of you told before, wiki software converts bold and italic
markup into <b> and <i> tags; my suggestion is to use them as largely as
possible if they don't overload the server, and if particular use of
apostrophes into a particular language (as Italian) raises any trouble.

If they are "deprecated" or "discouraged", they could be converted in CSS by
the software, if really needed.


--
Alex
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Re: bold and italic

Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu
In reply to this post by Ryan Biesemeyer
Media Wiki Version 1.15.1

Extensions installed - Wikilog, External Data, Parser Functions and Custom
Title.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Ryan Bies <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running?
> Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they could
> be contributing factors.
>
> You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like
> #mediawiki on IRC:
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC
>
> On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a
> > text
> > and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this
> > problem?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: bold and italic

Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu
Thanks everyone i used the html tags <b> and <i> and it seems to have solved
the problem for now. Great discussion though on the use of quotes and tags.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Media Wiki Version 1.15.1
>
> Extensions installed - Wikilog, External Data, Parser Functions and Custom
> Title.
>
>   On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Ryan Bies <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running?
>> Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they
>> could
>> be contributing factors.
>>
>> You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like
>> #mediawiki on IRC:
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC
>>
>> On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a
>> > text
>> > and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across
>> this
>> > problem?
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
>
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