changing edit summaries

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changing edit summaries

Amir E. Aharoni
In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
lot of users asked for it.

Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?

I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
look well enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.

So is there any reason not to do it?

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: changing edit summaries

John Doe-27
Its the same reason you cannot go back and modify changes to a revision.
Subsequent changes create new revisions, because edit summaries are not
versioned its not possible to change them and maintain the chain

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
> lot of users asked for it.
>
> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
>
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
>
> So is there any reason not to do it?
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: changing edit summaries

Petr Bena
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
It's not possible because nobody implemented it :)

From technical point of view I see no reason for it not to be
possible, but on other hand, I believe that revisions, once you save
them were designed to be "untouchable" including all of their parts.

There is suppress feature that allows edit summary to be hidden from
regular users. I am not sure if "edit" summary feature wouldn't be
used by trolls or bad useres to alter old summaries in order to abuse
them for some sort of vandalism (if private data were inserted to old
revision summary there is high chance that it would be overlooked,
unlike in case of new revision)

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
> lot of users asked for it.
>
> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
>
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
>
> So is there any reason not to do it?
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: changing edit summaries

Petr Bena
In reply to this post by John Doe-27
I disagree. There is no "chain" made of summaries. They are just a
text in a table that can be altered. It's just that there is no
feature which would allow that.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:27 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Its the same reason you cannot go back and modify changes to a revision.
> Subsequent changes create new revisions, because edit summaries are not
> versioned its not possible to change them and maintain the chain
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
>> lot of users asked for it.
>>
>> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
>>
>> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
>> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
>> look well enough.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
>> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
>>
>> So is there any reason not to do it?
>>
>> --
>> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>> ‪“We're living in pieces,
>> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: changing edit summaries

John Doe-27
The lack of historical changes in an edit summary is a critical issue if we
are going to enable modification of them.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Petr Bena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I disagree. There is no "chain" made of summaries. They are just a
> text in a table that can be altered. It's just that there is no
> feature which would allow that.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:27 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Its the same reason you cannot go back and modify changes to a revision.
> > Subsequent changes create new revisions, because edit summaries are not
> > versioned its not possible to change them and maintain the chain
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting
> after a
> >> lot of users asked for it.
> >>
> >> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
> >>
> >> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug
> for
> >> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I
> didn't
> >> look well enough.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they
> can't
> >> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
> >>
> >> So is there any reason not to do it?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> >> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> >> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> >> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: changing edit summaries

James Forrester-4
On 13 November 2014 13:40, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The lack of historical changes in an edit summary is a critical issue if we
> are going to enable modification of them.
>

​Just to be very clear,​ there is no way we'd allow history-less editing of
edit summaries in MediaWiki; it's fundamentally against the ethos of the
software. This conversation is getting seriously ahead of itself.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

[hidden email] | @jdforrester
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Re: changing edit summaries

Yusuke Matsubara
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.

A bit different, but there is an extension that enables
"supplementing" additional non-modifiable edit summaries:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:RevisionCommentSupplement

It was contributed (without a Bugzilla request) by Burthsceh, a
volunteer at Japanese Wikipedia, prompted by the necessity to fix
attributions made in edit summaries (for reused texts). [1]  I don't
think it has been extensively reviewed, though.

With that approach, you could effectively modify an edit summary by
appending a modified one and rev-deleting the original one.

[1] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E4%BA%95%E6%88%B8%E7%AB%AF/subj/%E5%B1%A5%E6%AD%B4%E3%83%9A%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%81%AE%E5%80%8B%E3%80%85%E3%81%AE%E7%89%88%E3%81%AB%E5%AF%BE%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E8%BF%BD%E5%8A%A0%E3%81%AE%E3%82%B3%E3%83%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%82%92%E8%A1%A8%E7%A4%BA%E3%81%99%E3%82%8B%E6%96%B9%E6%B3%95%E3%81%AE%E5%B0%8E%E5%85%A5%E3%81%AE%E6%8F%90%E6%A1%88

Best,
Yusuke

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
> lot of users asked for it.
>
> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
>
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
>
> So is there any reason not to do it?
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: changing edit summaries

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Le 13/11/2014 13:15, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :

> In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after a
> lot of users asked for it.
>
> Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
>
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
>
> So is there any reason not to do it?

I am not sure there is any point in adding a summary history for each
revision.  That sounds like a useless overhead for a corner case usage.

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: changing edit summaries

Amir E. Aharoni
2014-11-13 17:16 GMT+02:00 Antoine Musso <[hidden email]>:

> Le 13/11/2014 13:15, Amir E. Aharoni a écrit :
> > In Facebook it's possible to edit posts and comments after posting after
> a
> > lot of users asked for it.
> >
> > Why isn't it possible to change MediaWiki edit summaries after posting?
> >
> > I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug
> for
> > it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> > look well enough.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they
> can't
> > be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
> >
> > So is there any reason not to do it?
>
> I am not sure there is any point in adding a summary history for each
> revision.  That sounds like a useless overhead for a corner case usage.
>

Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.

Is it about tracking and preventing vandalism, or is it something deeper?
Vandalism would be a big deal if everybody could edit everybody's
summaries, but if a user can only edit one's own summaries, this shouldn't
be a problem. (And maybe sysops could edit everybody's summaries.)

This little change in the "ethos" doesn't seem like a serious price to pay
for giving a good-faith user an opportunity to fix a spelling error that
she noticed a moment after pushing "Save". Don't Wikipedians love fixing
spelling errors, especially their own? :)
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Re: changing edit summaries

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
subsequent dummy edit.

Nemo

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Re: changing edit summaries

Derric Atzrott
> Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.

I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
are to be modified then they need a revision history.

> Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
> subsequent dummy edit.

I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.

For me it's less about vandalism et al. and more about the principle
of revision tracking and audit trails.  When you make an edit that
revision is fixed and should not be able to be modified.  This is
one of the core principles that makes wikis work.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: changing edit summaries

Helder .
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried looking for it in Bugzilla; I expected to find a two-digit bug for
> it, but I couldn't find any at all. Of course it's possible that I didn't
> look well enough.
I found these:
WONTFIX: Allow editing of edit summaries after the fact
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10105
NEW: Correcting edit summaries (if own, last, & recent)
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13937

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Edit_summary just says that they can't
> be changed, but doesn't link to a discussion.
Now we have links to the bugs above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=633672398

Best regards,
Helder

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Re: changing edit summaries

Helder .
In reply to this post by Derric Atzrott
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Derric Atzrott
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
>
> I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> are to be modified then they need a revision history.
>
>> Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
>> subsequent dummy edit.
>
> I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
> really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
> Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.
This would work a little better if we had the feature requested on
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33943
(Grouping edit history). But I don't see a reason against
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13937
(Correcting edit summaries (if own, last, & recent))

Helder

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Re: changing edit summaries

Justin Folvarcik
As a longtime administrator of a MediaWiki site, I do not endorse this in
any way. There is absolutely no legitimate need to change edit summaries,
and the potential for this to be used for vandalism and trolling is
extensive. This is why users are encouraged to preview their edits, and I
see no reason to make provisions for people who refuse to do so.

----
Justin Folvarcik

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Helder . <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Derric Atzrott
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
> >
> > I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> > are to be modified then they need a revision history.
> >
> >> Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
> >> subsequent dummy edit.
> >
> > I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
> > really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
> > Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.
> This would work a little better if we had the feature requested on
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33943
> (Grouping edit history). But I don't see a reason against
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13937
> (Correcting edit summaries (if own, last, & recent))
>
> Helder
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: changing edit summaries

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Derric Atzrott
On Nov 13, 2014 11:43 AM, "Derric Atzrott" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
>
> I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> are to be modified then they need a revision history.
>
> > Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
> > subsequent dummy edit.
>
> I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
> really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
> Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.
>
> For me it's less about vandalism et al. and more about the principle
> of revision tracking and audit trails.  When you make an edit that
> revision is fixed and should not be able to be modified.  This is
> one of the core principles that makes wikis work.
>
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
>
>
>

+1. An edit summary represents something at a specific point in time. Its
important to know the context of an edit at that time. Editing edit
summaries allows someone to revise the context.

For comparision, how many revision control systems allow editing commit
messages.

--bawolff
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Re: changing edit summaries

Kevin Wayne Williams
In reply to this post by Derric Atzrott
Derric Atzrott schreef op 2014/11/13 8:42:
>> Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
>
> I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> are to be modified then they need a revision history.
>

I don't know if they need an edit history per se. A log of changes would
be sufficient.

KWW


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Re: changing edit summaries

Chad
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
On Thu Nov 13 2014 at 8:27:08 AM Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 13, 2014 11:43 AM, "Derric Atzrott" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
> >
> > I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> > are to be modified then they need a revision history.
> >
> > > Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
> > > subsequent dummy edit.
> >
> > I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
> > really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
> > Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.
> >
> > For me it's less about vandalism et al. and more about the principle
> > of revision tracking and audit trails.  When you make an edit that
> > revision is fixed and should not be able to be modified.  This is
> > one of the core principles that makes wikis work.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Derric Atzrott
> >
> >
> >
>
> +1. An edit summary represents something at a specific point in time. Its
> important to know the context of an edit at that time. Editing edit
> summaries allows someone to revise the context.
>
> For comparision, how many revision control systems allow editing commit
> messages.
>
>
Git does. Of course it comes with all kinds of warning messages about
how if you're working with others this is a terrible thing to do :)

-Chad
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Re: changing edit summaries

Steve Summit
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
bawolff wrote:
> For comparision, how many revision control systems allow editing commit
> messages.

Perforce does.

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Re: changing edit summaries

Nathan Awrich
I can see it being useful in two circumstances:

1) As part of the oversight right, in order to edit an edit summary without
hiding the entire revision
2) A right of a user to edit their own edit summaries, if the edit summary
is blank

Since it's possible and at least some people are interested in it, I don't
see the downside of making it available in MediaWiki even if most Wikimedia
projects might not use it.
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Re: changing edit summaries

James Forrester-4
In reply to this post by Helder .
On 13 November 2014 16:03, Helder . <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Derric Atzrott
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Indeed - I am somewhat surprised by James's firm opposition.
> >
> > I tend to agree with James on this one in that if the edit summaries
> > are to be modified then they need a revision history.
>

​Indeed; that's the core tenet of​ how MediaWiki is designed. All changes
are open. All changes are logged. Al(most al)l logs are visible. Changes
can't be redacted, except by super-power-users (sysops) who understand what
they're doing. Changes can't be removed from the records, except by
super-ultra-mega-power users (developers) who have database access and have
a really good reason.



> >> Typos in edit summary are fixed by releasing an errata corrige in a
> >> subsequent dummy edit.
> >
> > I question whether or not the ability to change edit summaries is
> > really a needed feature though.  I would prefer the approach that
> > Nemo recommend of making a dummy edit.
> This would work a little better if we had the feature requested on
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33943
> (Grouping edit history). But I don't see a reason against
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13937
> (Correcting edit summaries (if own, last, & recent))
>

Thanks for those links. However, for a change like this, I would expect (at
a minimum) a MediaWiki.org RfC. A bug isn't sufficient discussion, really.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

[hidden email] | @jdforrester
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