contacting schools

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contacting schools

audevivere
Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and can
offer advice/best practices?

I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I attended
school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down which
student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school can do
to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of other
kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the school.  Does
that sound reasonable?

The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some are
constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on our
end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.

What other things can the school network administrator and staff do?  Any
suggestions?

--Aude
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Re: contacting schools

Pilotguy
Why not file a report or ask someone over at WP:ABUSE? They usually have
experience in handling these types of situations.

On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and can
> offer advice/best practices?
>
> I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> attended
> school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> which
> student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school can
> do
> to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> other
> kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> school.  Does
> that sound reasonable?
>
> The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> are
> constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on our
> end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
>
> What other things can the school network administrator and staff do?  Any
> suggestions?
>
> --Aude
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilotguy
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Re: contacting schools

audevivere
The talk page there seems rather inactive, though I notice that Durova has
contacted schools with some success.  I'll see what Durova suggests, though
welcome any other advice on what schools realistically can do, short of
asking for an anon. only block on the IP.

I'd be curious to know how many different kids are responsible for vandalism
incidents from the IP.  If it's just a small number of kids, maybe something
more specific can be done without affecting the rest of the school.  Though,
I'm not sure what.  Not sure a teacher or anyone could really convince a
student to behave while on the computer.  Or if some technical restrictions
can be in place for specific kids.

-Aude

On 5/1/07, Pilotguy <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Why not file a report or ask someone over at WP:ABUSE? They usually have
> experience in handling these types of situations.
>
> On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and
> can
> > offer advice/best practices?
> >
> > I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> > attended
> > school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> > which
> > student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school
> can
> > do
> > to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> > other
> > kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> > school.  Does
> > that sound reasonable?
> >
> > The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> > are
> > constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on
> our
> > end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> > many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> > blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
> >
> > What other things can the school network administrator and staff
> do?  Any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > --Aude
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pilotguy
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilotguy
> --
> Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org
> ---
> Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by a Wikimedia
> contributor,
> and responses are not to be considered an official statement of the
> Wikimedia Foundation. For official correspondence, you may contact the
> site
> operators at <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Aude
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Re: contacting schools

Todd Allen
If I remember correctly, in some cases, the school's network admin has
specifically requested that the IP be long-term blocked from anonymous
editing. I haven't done any abuse reporting here, but I've done so in
some other cases. Schools tend to be pretty responsive and helpful, in
my experience.

On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The talk page there seems rather inactive, though I notice that Durova has
> contacted schools with some success.  I'll see what Durova suggests, though
> welcome any other advice on what schools realistically can do, short of
> asking for an anon. only block on the IP.
>
> I'd be curious to know how many different kids are responsible for vandalism
> incidents from the IP.  If it's just a small number of kids, maybe something
> more specific can be done without affecting the rest of the school.  Though,
> I'm not sure what.  Not sure a teacher or anyone could really convince a
> student to behave while on the computer.  Or if some technical restrictions
> can be in place for specific kids.
>
> -Aude
>
> On 5/1/07, Pilotguy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Why not file a report or ask someone over at WP:ABUSE? They usually have
> > experience in handling these types of situations.
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and
> > can
> > > offer advice/best practices?
> > >
> > > I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> > > attended
> > > school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> > > which
> > > student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school
> > can
> > > do
> > > to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> > > other
> > > kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> > > school.  Does
> > > that sound reasonable?
> > >
> > > The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> > > are
> > > constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on
> > our
> > > end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> > > many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> > > blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
> > >
> > > What other things can the school network administrator and staff
> > do?  Any
> > > suggestions?
> > >
> > > --Aude
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pilotguy
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilotguy
> > --
> > Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org
> > ---
> > Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by a Wikimedia
> > contributor,
> > and responses are not to be considered an official statement of the
> > Wikimedia Foundation. For official correspondence, you may contact the
> > site
> > operators at <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Aude
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


--
Freedom is the right to know that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.

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Fwd: contacting schools

audevivere
In reply to this post by audevivere
Follow up here...  I have looked through each individual contribution from
the school and do see repeat offenders, with similar edits on different
days.  The student did insert a bunch of names as part of the vandalism, one
which could be the specific kid responsible.  I think the school might be
able to deal with or maybe restrict the specific student(s) from using
Wikipedia.  (is that possible?)

I also looked at meta:XFF Project<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/XFF_Project>,
though don't see any schools listed there. Not sure if that's something they
can do.  If schools can qualify as a "trusted XFF", I can suggest that,
should the problem continue and they want to try using XFF.

-Aude

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Aude <[hidden email]>
Date: May 1, 2007 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] contacting schools
To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>

The talk page there seems rather inactive, though I notice that Durova has
contacted schools with some success.  I'll see what Durova suggests, though
welcome any other advice on what schools realistically can do, short of
asking for an anon. only block on the IP.

I'd be curious to know how many different kids are responsible for vandalism
incidents from the IP.  If it's just a small number of kids, maybe something
more specific can be done without affecting the rest of the school.  Though,
I'm not sure what.  Not sure a teacher or anyone could really convince a
student to behave while on the computer.  Or if some technical restrictions
can be in place for specific kids.

-Aude

On 5/1/07, Pilotguy <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Why not file a report or ask someone over at WP:ABUSE? They usually have
> experience in handling these types of situations.
>
> On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and
> can
> > offer advice/best practices?
> >
> > I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> > attended
> > school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> > which
> > student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school
> can
> > do
> > to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> > other
> > kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> > school.  Does
> > that sound reasonable?
> >
> > The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> > are
> > constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on
> our
> > end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> > many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> > blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
> >
> > What other things can the school network administrator and staff
> do?  Any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > --Aude
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pilotguy
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pilotguy
> --
> Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org
> ---
> Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by a Wikimedia
> contributor,
> and responses are not to be considered an official statement of the
> Wikimedia Foundation. For official correspondence, you may contact the
> site
> operators at <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Aude

--
Aude
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Re: contacting schools

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by audevivere
On 5/2/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What other things can the school network administrator and staff do?  Any
> suggestions?

They could probably provide information about the internal IP
structure of the institution. I'm not sure if by "school" you're
mainly referring to high schools or universities, but they could
possibly tell us which IP ranges are used by staff, and hence
shouldn't be blocked, for example.

Do we have an effective mechanism for saying "Sorry, your IP comes
from a network known for anonymous vandalism. If you'd like to edit
Wikipedia, you'll need to create an account"? I know in the past we
couldn't do that, but seem to recall things changing. Perhaps we could
even enforce the use of email addresses in such instances? There
should be no shame in upping our hurdle to contribution for networks
with a long history of vandalism.

Steve

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Re: contacting schools

audevivere
I've spent the last hour looking at this some more.  I've looked at schools
in these categories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High_schools_in_Fairfax_County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Public_schools_in_Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aude/schools - Results show most other
schools in these systems are much worse offenders and have experienced
long-term blocks (3, 6 months or so).  One was even indefinite, which I'm
not sure is okay?

There appears to be one proxy server per school, thus one IP address per
high school in these jurisdictions.  So by "school", I mean each high
school.  I should note that not all school systems are set-up this way.  In
contrast, Arlington County, VA doesn't do that.  They have multiple IP
addresses for each school.  I'm not sure about others. Prince George's
County (MD) also has multiple IP addresses per school, though each there has
been blocked ~3-5 times.  For some reason I can't figure out,  I haven't
come across vandalism from/to public schools in Washington D.C. (even though
I also watchlist them)

Anyway, a long-term block might be in order for the specific school in
question.  This essentially does the "Sorry, your IP comes from a network
know for anonymous vandals..." and we have {{schoolblock}} template.

Though, the vandalism does appear to come from just one or two students.  If
there was another way of dealing with the problem, such as restricting
specific students from accessing Wikipedia (if that is any good?) from
school.  Don't think it can 100% be stopped, but would vandalism from the
school be significantly curtailed? I think it would be interesting to find
out if the school can do this and if it would help.  If these kids were
blocked from Wikipedia (including for doing homework, and all) would this be
enough to convince them to stop? or maybe these kids don't care about
homework?  Or this might be too optimistic.

-Aude
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Re: contacting schools

David Goodman
I do not see why we should be at all reluctant to use anon only blocks
for a school address. it will not interfere with legitimate editing,
and it will discourage the worst of the vandalism, though of course
not all. I'd think it should be an early measure, and shouldn't
require contact the school at all. Of course, I am talking through my
hat, not having first hand experience with this. DGG

On 5/2/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've spent the last hour looking at this some more.  I've looked at schools
> in these categories
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High_schools_in_Fairfax_County
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Public_schools_in_Montgomery_County%2C_Maryland
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aude/schools - Results show most other
> schools in these systems are much worse offenders and have experienced
> long-term blocks (3, 6 months or so).  One was even indefinite, which I'm
> not sure is okay?
>
> There appears to be one proxy server per school, thus one IP address per
> high school in these jurisdictions.  So by "school", I mean each high
> school.  I should note that not all school systems are set-up this way.  In
> contrast, Arlington County, VA doesn't do that.  They have multiple IP
> addresses for each school.  I'm not sure about others. Prince George's
> County (MD) also has multiple IP addresses per school, though each there has
> been blocked ~3-5 times.  For some reason I can't figure out,  I haven't
> come across vandalism from/to public schools in Washington D.C. (even though
> I also watchlist them)
>
> Anyway, a long-term block might be in order for the specific school in
> question.  This essentially does the "Sorry, your IP comes from a network
> know for anonymous vandals..." and we have {{schoolblock}} template.
>
> Though, the vandalism does appear to come from just one or two students.  If
> there was another way of dealing with the problem, such as restricting
> specific students from accessing Wikipedia (if that is any good?) from
> school.  Don't think it can 100% be stopped, but would vandalism from the
> school be significantly curtailed? I think it would be interesting to find
> out if the school can do this and if it would help.  If these kids were
> blocked from Wikipedia (including for doing homework, and all) would this be
> enough to convince them to stop? or maybe these kids don't care about
> homework?  Or this might be too optimistic.
>
> -Aude
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.

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Re: contacting schools

Death Phoenix
In reply to this post by audevivere
I have some success with Lancaster University. I originally slapped one of
their proxies with a 6 month AO block due to persistent, long term
vandalism, but one of the sysadmins contacted me and told me they have XFF
headers. After some fruitful discussion/negotiation, I removed the block and
put up a header on the talk pages for their four proxies asking anyone who
blocks the IP (or issues a warning) to also send an email to their abuse
email, or to ask me to send and email. FYI, I have links to the four proxies
at [[User talk:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]] (the IP talk page header is at
[[User:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]]).

Lancaster's IT department has been quite good at identifying vandals and
forwarding the cases to their internal departments. Quite a number of
student-vandals have had stern talking-tos from the head of their User
Services department, and they have all been quite repentant once they
realise that they are NOT anonymous.

My suggestions for the school network admins and staff would be:

1. Implement XFF headers and make sure students have to log in using a
unique user ID (easiest would be based on student number) before using
school computers.
2. Have an easy-to-contact abuse email address that we can slap on the IP
talk page, asking people to forward vandalism diffs.
3. Act promptly to reports sent to the abuse email address and (optionally)
let the abuse reporter know when the vandal is identified and if any action
has been taken.

Cheers,

DP

On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and can
> offer advice/best practices?
>
> I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> attended
> school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> which
> student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school can
> do
> to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> other
> kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> school.  Does
> that sound reasonable?
>
> The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> are
> constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on our
> end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
>
> What other things can the school network administrator and staff do?  Any
> suggestions?
>
> --Aude
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: contacting schools

audevivere
The same student vandalized again today.  Exact same editing pattern, same
time of day, etc.

The school network admin has replied to me and will try to find the
student.  It seems to be the one student responsible for this, over the past
1-2 months and the 1,999 other students there are not a problem.  If one or
the few students responsible can be stopped, I think it would largely take
care of the problem.

I also suggested XFF, which I'm willing to work with them on, and willing to
be diligent and keep track of the IP.

-Aude

On 5/2/07, Deathphoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I have some success with Lancaster University. I originally slapped one of
> their proxies with a 6 month AO block due to persistent, long term
> vandalism, but one of the sysadmins contacted me and told me they have XFF
> headers. After some fruitful discussion/negotiation, I removed the block
> and
> put up a header on the talk pages for their four proxies asking anyone who
> blocks the IP (or issues a warning) to also send an email to their abuse
> email, or to ask me to send and email. FYI, I have links to the four
> proxies
> at [[User talk:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]] (the IP talk page header is at
> [[User:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]]).
>
> Lancaster's IT department has been quite good at identifying vandals and
> forwarding the cases to their internal departments. Quite a number of
> student-vandals have had stern talking-tos from the head of their User
> Services department, and they have all been quite repentant once they
> realise that they are NOT anonymous.
>
> My suggestions for the school network admins and staff would be:
>
> 1. Implement XFF headers and make sure students have to log in using a
> unique user ID (easiest would be based on student number) before using
> school computers.
> 2. Have an easy-to-contact abuse email address that we can slap on the IP
> talk page, asking people to forward vandalism diffs.
> 3. Act promptly to reports sent to the abuse email address and
> (optionally)
> let the abuse reporter know when the vandal is identified and if any
> action
> has been taken.
>
> Cheers,
>
> DP
>
> On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and
> can
> > offer advice/best practices?
> >
> > I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> > attended
> > school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> > which
> > student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school
> can
> > do
> > to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> > other
> > kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> > school.  Does
> > that sound reasonable?
> >
> > The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but some
> > are
> > constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on
> our
> > end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea how
> > many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> > blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
> >
> > What other things can the school network administrator and staff
> do?  Any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > --Aude
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Aude
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Re: contacting schools

Death Phoenix
Sounds good. XFF would go a long way towards making it easier to deal with
future vandals. How many computers do they have in this particular school?

On 5/2/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The same student vandalized again today.  Exact same editing pattern, same
> time of day, etc.
>
> The school network admin has replied to me and will try to find the
> student.  It seems to be the one student responsible for this, over the
> past
> 1-2 months and the 1,999 other students there are not a problem.  If one
> or
> the few students responsible can be stopped, I think it would largely take
> care of the problem.
>
> I also suggested XFF, which I'm willing to work with them on, and willing
> to
> be diligent and keep track of the IP.
>
> -Aude
>
> On 5/2/07, Deathphoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have some success with Lancaster University. I originally slapped one
> of
> > their proxies with a 6 month AO block due to persistent, long term
> > vandalism, but one of the sysadmins contacted me and told me they have
> XFF
> > headers. After some fruitful discussion/negotiation, I removed the block
> > and
> > put up a header on the talk pages for their four proxies asking anyone
> who
> > blocks the IP (or issues a warning) to also send an email to their abuse
> > email, or to ask me to send and email. FYI, I have links to the four
> > proxies
> > at [[User talk:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]] (the IP talk page header is at
> > [[User:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]]).
> >
> > Lancaster's IT department has been quite good at identifying vandals and
> > forwarding the cases to their internal departments. Quite a number of
> > student-vandals have had stern talking-tos from the head of their User
> > Services department, and they have all been quite repentant once they
> > realise that they are NOT anonymous.
> >
> > My suggestions for the school network admins and staff would be:
> >
> > 1. Implement XFF headers and make sure students have to log in using a
> > unique user ID (easiest would be based on student number) before using
> > school computers.
> > 2. Have an easy-to-contact abuse email address that we can slap on the
> IP
> > talk page, asking people to forward vandalism diffs.
> > 3. Act promptly to reports sent to the abuse email address and
> > (optionally)
> > let the abuse reporter know when the vandal is identified and if any
> > action
> > has been taken.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > DP
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have experience contacting schools regarding vandalism and
> > can
> > > offer advice/best practices?
> > >
> > > I had to block one of the schools one of the jurisdictions where I
> > > attended
> > > school, and comfortable contacting them.  They can possibly track down
> > > which
> > > student did the latest vandalism, but not really sure what the school
> > can
> > > do
> > > to stop them.  I only speculate that it's a relatively small number of
> > > other
> > > kids responsible for previous incidents of vandalism from the
> > > school.  Does
> > > that sound reasonable?
> > >
> > > The majority of edits from the school IP are not constructive, but
> some
> > > are
> > > constructive.  The volume of vandalism is moderate, but manageable (on
> > our
> > > end) and not high as I've seen with other schools.  And have no idea
> how
> > > many students and staff there edit with accounts.  I prefer not simply
> > > blocking the whole school because of some bad kids.
> > >
> > > What other things can the school network administrator and staff
> > do?  Any
> > > suggestions?
> > >
> > > --Aude
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Aude
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: contacting schools

audevivere
Not sure how many computers, but there are ~2000 students which is typical
for high schools in the local area.

Montgomery County is one of the more affluent jurisdictions in the U.S., so
I expect they have well-equiped computer labs.  This particular school is
not more than 10 years old.  Who knows, but maybe some students have their
own laptops and use wi-fi at the school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hubert_Blake_High_School

As an aside, I'm having trouble figuring out why I'm not seeing similar
vandalism patterns for city schools in Washington, D.C.  I wonder if
students don't have the same access to computers or what's going on that
accounts for this difference.

-Aude

On 5/2/07, Deathphoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sounds good. XFF would go a long way towards making it easier to deal with
> future vandals. How many computers do they have in this particular school?
>
>
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XFF headers (was: contacting schools)

Ilmari Karonen
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
Deathphoenix wrote:

> I have some success with Lancaster University. I originally slapped one of
> their proxies with a 6 month AO block due to persistent, long term
> vandalism, but one of the sysadmins contacted me and told me they have XFF
> headers. After some fruitful discussion/negotiation, I removed the block and
> put up a header on the talk pages for their four proxies asking anyone who
> blocks the IP (or issues a warning) to also send an email to their abuse
> email, or to ask me to send and email. FYI, I have links to the four proxies
> at [[User talk:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]] (the IP talk page header is at
> [[User:Deathphoenix/Lancaster]]).
>
  [snip]
>
> My suggestions for the school network admins and staff would be:
>
> 1. Implement XFF headers and make sure students have to log in using a
> unique user ID (easiest would be based on student number) before using
> school computers.

On the subject of XFF ("X-Forwarded-For") headers, I'd like to note a
few important technical details that one should keep in mind:

1. Having a proxy provide XFF headers isn't enough; the address of the
proxy also needs to be added to the list of trusted proxies that
Wikimedia servers will accept such headers from.  That's because such
headers would otherwise be trivially easy to fake.  To get an address
added to the list, you can post a request on [[meta:Talk:XFF project]]
or contact a developer with shell access (such as Tim Starling, who's
been doing most of the work on the XFF project) directly.

2. One of the requirements for getting a proxy added to the trusted list
is that the individual computers behind it have public IP addresses of
their own.  If the school network is using [[private IP addresses]]
internally, XFF headers won't help.

3. Once the address of a proxy has been added to the trusted XFF list,
no edits should be seen from that address ever again, and blocking the
address of the proxy should have no effect.  That's because, as far as
MediaWiki is concerned, the edits made via that proxy will no longer be
seen as coming from the proxy, but from the IP address of the computer
behind the proxy.

I'll repeat that, since it's important: Once a proxy is on the trusted
XFF list, *any blocks on it will have no effect*.

4. If the computers behind the proxy are public workstations in, say, a
school computer lab, XFF headers may not help prevent vandalism much.
By making edits from different workstations be seen as coming from
different IPs, they may reduce collateral damage from blocking one
workstation; but if the vandals can just switch to another computer,
this may end up doing more harm than good.  At best, they may make
tracking down the vandals easier, if the school requires users to log in
to workstations and keeps logs of who used which workstation when; this
may often be true at college level schools, but much less so at high
schools or even elementary schools.

That last point is also important; to catch vandals, it's not enough
that students log in, it's also necessary to keep a log of who used
which workstation when _and_ to make said log available to whoever is
tasked with handling network abuse issues.  Of course, there are
significant privacy issues here that need to be considered too.

So, to summarize, XFF headers are only useful for catching school
vandals if the school has:

1. their proxy/ies listed in the trusted XFF list,
2. public IP addresses for each workstation,
3. workstations requiring students to log in to use them,
4. a log of who was using which workstation when, and
5. a person with access to said log who can handle complaints.

Of course, it should go without saying that the contact information for
the person or department responsible for handling net abuse issues must
also be easy to find, if it's to do anyone any good.

(This is all based on my understanding of the XFF implementation in
MediaWiki as it was when I last looked at it.  If you find any incorrect
or outdated information above, please correct me.  To increase the odds
of this happening, I've crossposted this to wikitech-l in addition to
wikien-l.)

--
Ilmari Karonen

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Re: XFF headers (was: contacting schools)

audevivere
I did read the meta page, but your explanation is much better and very
helpful.  Of course, the student can go log into another computer.  That
might be more annoying for us to deal with, or require a range block.  At
the same time, if the school is willing to find the students, then XFF might
help.  In this case, it sounds like they may be able to find the student
anyway.

If the school is interested in XFF, I can provide them with these specifics.

Thanks again for this info.

-Aude

On 5/2/07, Ilmari Karonen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >
> > My suggestions for the school network admins and staff would be:
> >
> > 1. Implement XFF headers and make sure students have to log in using a
> > unique user ID (easiest would be based on student number) before using
> > school computers.
>
> On the subject of XFF ("X-Forwarded-For") headers, I'd like to note a
> few important technical details that one should keep in mind:
>
> 1. Having a proxy provide XFF headers isn't enough; the address of the
> proxy also needs to be added to the list of trusted proxies that
> Wikimedia servers will accept such headers from.  That's because such
> headers would otherwise be trivially easy to fake.  To get an address
> added to the list, you can post a request on [[meta:Talk:XFF project]]
> or contact a developer with shell access (such as Tim Starling, who's
> been doing most of the work on the XFF project) directly.
>
>   [snip]


(This is all based on my understanding of the XFF implementation in

> MediaWiki as it was when I last looked at it.  If you find any incorrect
> or outdated information above, please correct me.  To increase the odds
> of this happening, I've crossposted this to wikitech-l in addition to
> wikien-l.)
>
> --
> Ilmari Karonen
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Aude
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Re: contacting schools

Death Phoenix
In reply to this post by audevivere
Not sure why, but some high schools have a lot of vandals, while others have
none. As a more affluent jurisdiction, and a school <10 years old, I'd agree
that they would have well-equipped computer labs, perhaps with a younger
staff, so maybe they'd be open to implementing XFF. Does this school require
students to log in to use the computers, or are the computers all publicly
accessible.

On 5/2/07, Aude <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Not sure how many computers, but there are ~2000 students which is typical
> for high schools in the local area.
>
> Montgomery County is one of the more affluent jurisdictions in the U.S.,
> so
> I expect they have well-equiped computer labs.  This particular school is
> not more than 10 years old.  Who knows, but maybe some students have their
> own laptops and use wi-fi at the school.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hubert_Blake_High_School
>
> As an aside, I'm having trouble figuring out why I'm not seeing similar
> vandalism patterns for city schools in Washington, D.C.  I wonder if
> students don't have the same access to computers or what's going on that
> accounts for this difference.
>
> -Aude
>
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