could we please have a community-l?

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could we please have a community-l?

Brianna Laugher
I want a community-l list for much of the discussion that currently
has nowhere to go but foundation-l. I would like to keep foundation-l
for things like Board-initiated discussions and issues that people
want Board input on. (of course people will overpost there but it
can't be any worse than it is right now.) foundation-l has too many
purposes crammed into one list and I think the high traffic
discourages people from getting involved.

I also feel strange posting to foundation-l when I know I really just
want to say "community-l" (and I expect the Board would often read
there out of interest, but they wouldn't HAVE to).

cheers,
Brianna

--
They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
http://modernthings.org/

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Sydney Poore
No harm in giving "community-l" a try. May or may not work but I think that
there is merit to dividing out the Foundation board related discussion from
the rest of the topics on this list.

Sydney Poore aka FloNight


On 8/10/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I want a community-l list for much of the discussion that currently
> has nowhere to go but foundation-l. I would like to keep foundation-l
> for things like Board-initiated discussions and issues that people
> want Board input on. (of course people will overpost there but it
> can't be any worse than it is right now.) foundation-l has too many
> purposes crammed into one list and I think the high traffic
> discourages people from getting involved.
>
> I also feel strange posting to foundation-l when I know I really just
> want to say "community-l" (and I expect the Board would often read
> there out of interest, but they wouldn't HAVE to).
>
> cheers,
> Brianna
>
> --
> They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
> http://modernthings.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Brianna Laugher
On 8/10/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I want a community-l list for much of the discussion that currently
> has nowhere to go but foundation-l.

That's a bit limited of a definition. ;-) Could you make a bullet
point list of example topics and where they should go in such a setup?
E.g., "new project proposal", "chapter report", "fundraising idea" ...
It seems that unless we can well-specify what the topics of each list
would be, it would be an arbitrary split which would mean that
interested people would be subscribed to both lists, anyway.
--
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Gianluigi Gamba
2007/8/10, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]>:
>
> ...It seems that unless we can well-specify what the topics of each list
> would be, it would be an arbitrary split which would mean that
> interested people would be subscribed to both lists, anyway.


Please, let's be careful not to create too many communications channels to
be watched.
The idea of a new list doesn't turn me on that much. But if it's considered
useful, ok.

G.

"too much information running through my brain
too much information driving me insane"
(the Police, 1981)
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Dan Rosenthal

On Aug 10, 2007, at 12:55 PM, Gianluigi Gamba wrote:

> 2007/8/10, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> ...It seems that unless we can well-specify what the topics of  
>> each list
>> would be, it would be an arbitrary split which would mean that
>> interested people would be subscribed to both lists, anyway.
>
>
> Please, let's be careful not to create too many communications  
> channels to
> be watched.
> The idea of a new list doesn't turn me on that much. But if it's  
> considered
> useful, ok.
>
> G.
>
> "too much information running through my brain
> too much information driving me insane"
> (the Police, 1981)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

I agree with Gianluigi. I think the idea of a community-l list is  
probably a good thing, but for the life of me I can't think of a good  
definition of what should be on that list, other than "community  
related things that don't directly refer to the foundation, so  
shouldn't be on foundation-l." and I am rather uncomfortable with the  
idea of a list so generally defined, for the sake of having a list.  
But if someone can come up with a good definition for it I'd be all  
for it.

-dan

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Mitchell-15
How about "Topics corresponding to Wikimedia projects in general, but not
decisions related to the Wikimedia Foundation"? Also, would a better name
for this list be wikimedia-l?

____________________
Mitch D.
(Greeves on all English Wikimedia projects)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dan Rosenthal
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] could we please have a community-l?

I agree with Gianluigi. I think the idea of a community-l list is  
probably a good thing, but for the life of me I can't think of a good  
definition of what should be on that list, other than "community  
related things that don't directly refer to the foundation, so  
shouldn't be on foundation-l." and I am rather uncomfortable with the  
idea of a list so generally defined, for the sake of having a list.  
But if someone can come up with a good definition for it I'd be all  
for it.

-dan

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Judson Dunn-2
On 8/10/07, Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How about "Topics corresponding to Wikimedia projects in general, but not
> decisions related to the Wikimedia Foundation"? Also, would a better name
> for this list be wikimedia-l?

Hey, Japanese wikipedia, what are your experiences with non-free media
content? Do you allow it? Roughly what percentage of images would you
say are non-free?

There's a good example of a real question I would like to ask :)

Judson
[[:en:User:Cohesion]]

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Luna-4
On 8/10/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey, Japanese wikipedia, what are your experiences with non-free media
> content? Do you allow it? Roughly what percentage of images would you
> say are non-free?
>

I think it'll be hard to find a useful distinction, but threads like that
might make sense going into another mailing list. They *work* here, but I
can see how they drift a bit off the usual flavor. We do have an
interproject mailing list at wikipedia-l (and probably a few others),
perhaps such threads could be directed there, or that list could be renamed
and refactored? Just a thought.

-Luna
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
The Wikipedia-l is an inter language list. It is not an inter project list.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 8/10/07, Luna <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 8/10/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hey, Japanese wikipedia, what are your experiences with non-free media
> > content? Do you allow it? Roughly what percentage of images would you
> > say are non-free?
> >
>
> I think it'll be hard to find a useful distinction, but threads like that
> might make sense going into another mailing list. They *work* here, but I
> can see how they drift a bit off the usual flavor. We do have an
> interproject mailing list at wikipedia-l (and probably a few others),
> perhaps such threads could be directed there, or that list could be
> renamed
> and refactored? Just a thought.
>
> -Luna
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Luna-4
On 8/10/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Wikipedia-l is an inter language list. It is not an inter project
> list.
>

I tend to think of the various languages (en.wikipedia and de.wikipedia, for
example) as distinct projects, even if they are more closely related in some
ways to each other than to, say, Wikinews. Looks like we use the terms
differently -- though I apologize if I caused any offense.

-Luna
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On 10/08/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hoi,
> The Wikipedia-l is an inter language list. It is not an inter project list.
> Thanks,

This does seem to be splitting hairs a bit...

Taking the definition of "project" as "Wikipedia, Wikibooks, etc",
then no it isn't. Taking the (fairly commonly used) definition of
"project" as a specific single wiki - Japanese Wikipedia, English
Wikibooks - then yes, it is an interproject list, just one dealing
with a restricted set of projects.

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Casey Brown-3
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
I agree with you here.  Various things need *both* community and board
involvement, like "new projects" and "fundraising ideas".  That is the
problem, Wikimedia and the Foundation do, most of the time (as they should)
go hand-in-hand.  I wouldn't mind a new list, but I don't feel that we
completely need one.

On 8/10/07, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 8/10/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I want a community-l list for much of the discussion that currently
> > has nowhere to go but foundation-l.
>
> That's a bit limited of a definition. ;-) Could you make a bullet
> point list of example topics and where they should go in such a setup?
> E.g., "new project proposal", "chapter report", "fundraising idea" ...
> It seems that unless we can well-specify what the topics of each list
> would be, it would be an arbitrary split which would mean that
> interested people would be subscribed to both lists, anyway.
> --
> Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
> Erik
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
> the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Note:  This e-mail address is used for mailing lists.  Personal emails sent
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Brianna Laugher
In reply to this post by Judson Dunn-2
On 11/08/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/10/07, Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > How about "Topics corresponding to Wikimedia projects in general, but not
> > decisions related to the Wikimedia Foundation"? Also, would a better name
> > for this list be wikimedia-l?
>
> Hey, Japanese wikipedia, what are your experiences with non-free media
> content? Do you allow it? Roughly what percentage of images would you
> say are non-free?
>
> There's a good example of a real question I would like to ask :)

Yes. And not just Japanese Wikipedia - any project.

- Hi, I'm trying to help my wiki in language X grow, do you have any
ideas about how to do it?
- Hi Wikimedians, do you think 3RR should be a policy on every wiki?
Why or why not?
- Hi other projects, I'm curious to get impressions about how other
projects deal with 'difficult users'. We have a user who does X and we
don't quite want to block him, because he makes useful edits, but the
way he relates to other people is causing friction. any ideas?

Actually I think the question is what should go on the foundation-l
list, not the other way around. Of the last 20 topics or so only a few
should really be for the Board: EDP, paypal, checkuser stuff.

Brianna

--
They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
http://modernthings.org/

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Angela-5
Brianna wrote:
> - Hi, I'm trying to help my wiki in language X grow, do you have any
> ideas about how to do it?
> - Hi Wikimedians, do you think 3RR should be a policy on every wiki?
> Why or why not?
> - Hi other projects, I'm curious to get impressions about how other
> projects deal with 'difficult users'. We have a user who does X and we
> don't quite want to block him, because he makes useful edits, but the
> way he relates to other people is causing friction. any ideas?

If you were going to ask those questions on a wiki, it would be
meta.wikimedia.org, so perhaps the right mailing list for that is also
the meta mailing list rather than community-l? There's a
not-yet-official list for Meta at
<http://mail.lists.wikipedia.be/mailman/listinfo/meta-l_lists.wikipedia.be>.
It hasn't been widely promoted and only has 29 subscribers so far.

There's a request for Wikimedia to host that list at
<http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10098>.

Angela

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Brianna Laugher
On 11/08/07, Angela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you were going to ask those questions on a wiki, it would be
> meta.wikimedia.org, so perhaps the right mailing list for that is also
> the meta mailing list rather than community-l? There's a
> not-yet-official list for Meta at
> <http://mail.lists.wikipedia.be/mailman/listinfo/meta-l_lists.wikipedia.be>.
> It hasn't been widely promoted and only has 29 subscribers so far.
>
> There's a request for Wikimedia to host that list at
> <http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10098>.

Well that's fine. The name is not of great importance to me. I just
want some infrastructure to exist.

Brianna

--
They've just been waiting in a mountain for the right moment:
http://modernthings.org/

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
On 8/11/07, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/08/07, Angela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If you were going to ask those questions on a wiki, it would be
> > meta.wikimedia.org, so perhaps the right mailing list for that is also
> > the meta mailing list rather than community-l? There's a
> > not-yet-official list for Meta at
> > <http://mail.lists.wikipedia.be/mailman/listinfo/meta-l_lists.wikipedia.be>.
> > It hasn't been widely promoted and only has 29 subscribers so far.
> >
> > There's a request for Wikimedia to host that list at
> > <http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10098>.
>
> Well that's fine. The name is not of great importance to me. I just
> want some infrastructure to exist.
>

Hi. I've been mulling over your suggestion, and not only do I
find it a capital idea, but actually I would humbly suggest that
the name *does* matter.

If the name was community-l, it might attract the kind of
"silent knowledge", tradition not policy, discussion.

That is to say not "thou shalt not" type
Mosaic law type process/policy wonking discussion,
but (and I know people do feel "clue" can not be
legislated) the kind of discussion that might impart
through gentle instruction the best practises of the
community as a whole and accross projects.

It could also serve as a timebinding tool, enmeshing the
varying generations of wikimedians together more
fully in a more perfect union. I have long been thinking
it would be a useful thing if the newer wikipedians
had at the very least an understanding of the more
seasoned veteran wikipedians mindset, and a better
historical perspective. More and more clashes onwiki
appear to stem from the disparity of culture between
those who have been with us for long, and those who
are doing the work enthusiastically with the exuberance
of just discovering wikimedia.

--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Gianluigi Gamba
In reply to this post by Brianna Laugher
2007/8/11, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]>:
>
> ...Well that's fine. The name is not of great importance to me. I just
> want some infrastructure to exist.


In a sense, it already does exist.

The "village pumps" and the "embassies" (or their equivalent) of every
wikiproject are the right place for posting questions about policy
comparisons, suggestion about wiki-activities, and so on... meta itself *is*
the place where try to coordinate globally.

The main difference is that such wiki-spaces are completely public and
trasparent, meanwhile a mailing list requires a subscription. But the topics
given as example IMHO do not require secrecy. Should a topic be handled in a
non-wholly-public place, there are the already existing mailing lists...

Bye,
G.
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
There are too many "village pumps" there are fewer embassies. By sending to
a mailing list you reach the people who have indicated to be interested in
the subjects a mailing list stands for.

I disagree that the mailing list are less public or transparent then the
"village pumps", they reach a different public. When a specific thread is of
sufficient interest, it can be referred to. The archives are open to all. I
would even argue the opposite; when you post on more then two "village
pumps" most people will not know what is said elsewhere and consequently it
is impossible to reach a consensus.

Thanks,
     GerardM

On 8/11/07, Gianluigi Gamba <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 2007/8/11, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > ...Well that's fine. The name is not of great importance to me. I just
> > want some infrastructure to exist.
>
>
> In a sense, it already does exist.
>
> The "village pumps" and the "embassies" (or their equivalent) of every
> wikiproject are the right place for posting questions about policy
> comparisons, suggestion about wiki-activities, and so on... meta itself
> *is*
> the place where try to coordinate globally.
>
> The main difference is that such wiki-spaces are completely public and
> trasparent, meanwhile a mailing list requires a subscription. But the
> topics
> given as example IMHO do not require secrecy. Should a topic be handled in
> a
> non-wholly-public place, there are the already existing mailing lists...
>
> Bye,
> G.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Gianluigi Gamba
2007/8/11, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
>
> ... I would even argue the opposite; when you post on more then two
> "village
> pumps" most people will not know what is said elsewhere and consequently
> it
> is impossible to reach a consensus.


And this is reciprocally valid for what said on a mailing list I'm not
registered on.
I'm not against a new communication channel "per se" - I just wonder how
wisely and efficiently we use the ones we already have.
Creating a new mailing list is not difficult and might have sense. I'd
almost certainly subscribe it. But it's also another path on which
discussions fork on and disperse.

Perplexed. Bye,
G.
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Re: could we please have a community-l?

Sydney Poore
In reply to this post by Angela-5
Angela and Brianna,

The Meta mailing list would be perfect. I think the description of the list
should include the word community to help get the point accross that it is
for broad community discussions.

Thinking about this more since Brianna suggested it, I think re-focusing the
Foundation mailing list toward Board related matter would be a good idea.
Since the list has served a broader purpose up to now, I'm not completely
sure  will happen as old habits are hard to break. But I think it is worth a
try.

Sydney


On 8/11/07, Angela <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Brianna wrote:
> > - Hi, I'm trying to help my wiki in language X grow, do you have any
> > ideas about how to do it?
> > - Hi Wikimedians, do you think 3RR should be a policy on every wiki?
> > Why or why not?
> > - Hi other projects, I'm curious to get impressions about how other
> > projects deal with 'difficult users'. We have a user who does X and we
> > don't quite want to block him, because he makes useful edits, but the
> > way he relates to other people is causing friction. any ideas?
>
> If you were going to ask those questions on a wiki, it would be
> meta.wikimedia.org, so perhaps the right mailing list for that is also
> the meta mailing list rather than community-l? There's a
> not-yet-official list for Meta at
> <http://mail.lists.wikipedia.be/mailman/listinfo/meta-l_lists.wikipedia.be
> >.
> It hasn't been widely promoted and only has 29 subscribers so far.
>
> There's a request for Wikimedia to host that list at
> <http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10098>.
>
> Angela
>
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