hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
160 messages Options
1234 ... 8
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Amir E. Aharoni
Hello,

For part 1, see [1].

In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".

Is there any data about their usage since the switch to Vector?

[1]
http://www.mail-archive.com/wikipedia-l@.../msg00461.html
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_experience_feedback

--
אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Gregory Maxwell
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> For part 1, see [1].
>
> In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
> links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".
>
> Is there any data about their usage since the switch to Vector?


Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
occupied is filled with nothing now.

They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.

Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
foreign language box.

In my opinion, the world is not best served by hyper-optimizing for
the most frequent and shallow interests of the largest majorities.  I
think that extreme inclusiveness of all kinds of interests, often at a
small expense to the most common cases was previously a core design
value for the site, but that doesn't really seem to be the case
anymore... just like the main site is still unbrowsable on blackberry
(formally some 14 million page views per day, for those playing the
numbers game) or PS3.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Fajro
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
> links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".

Hiding interlanguage links by default is simply annoying, especially
if you translate articles or you're a curious polyglot.

--
Fajro

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Gregory Maxwell
2010/6/2 Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]>

>
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > For part 1, see [1].
> >
> > In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
> > links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".
> >
> > Is there any data about their usage since the switch to Vector?
>
> They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
> and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.
>
> Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
> discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
> following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
> language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
> to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
> foreign language box.
>
> In my opinion, the world is not best served by hyper-optimizing for
> the most frequent and shallow interests of the largest majorities.

That's exactly my opinion, too. I am trying to back it with data.

--
אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Gregory Maxwell
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
> occupied is filled with nothing now.

Interface clutter is not psychologically free.  Empty space is better
than space filled with mostly-useless controls.  Whether these
particular controls are worth it I don't know, but the general
principle of hiding seldom-used things is sound.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
I would like to know as follows
* the data mentioned
* differences between language groups: does every  language group use
interlanguage links rarely or some of them use it often? For instance,
in a small wikis?
* Is there any way to choose if those hiding-by-default boxes are
visible by user preferences?

Honestly I am surprised this change which wasn't so during the beta
test, and personally as an multilingual, slightly annoyed by an
increased number of clicks,
I know it makes a sense to weigh the majority's preferences, but if
there is no other options, it reduces usability for me as individual.

Cheers,

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 4:10 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/6/2 Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > For part 1, see [1].
>> >
>> > In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
>> > links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".
>> >
>> > Is there any data about their usage since the switch to Vector?
>>
>> They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
>> and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.
>>
>> Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
>> discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
>> following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
>> language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
>> to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
>> foreign language box.
>>
>> In my opinion, the world is not best served by hyper-optimizing for
>> the most frequent and shallow interests of the largest majorities.
>
> That's exactly my opinion, too. I am trying to back it with data.
>
> --
> אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>
> "We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
I would like to know as follows
* the data mentioned
* differences between language groups: does every  language group use
interlanguage links rarely or some of them use it often? For instance,
in a small wikis?
* Is there any way to choose if those hiding-by-default boxes are
visible by user preferences?

Honestly I am surprised this change which wasn't so during the beta
test, and personally as an multilingual, slightly annoyed by an
increased number of clicks,
I know it makes a sense to weigh the majority's preferences, but if
there is no other option, it reduces usability for me as individual.

Cheers,

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 4:10 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/6/2 Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > For part 1, see [1].
>> >
>> > In his reply to User experience feedback [2], Howief says: "the language
>> > links were used relatively infrequently based on tracking data".
>> >
>> > Is there any data about their usage since the switch to Vector?
>>
>> They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
>> and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.
>>
>> Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
>> discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
>> following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
>> language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
>> to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
>> foreign language box.
>>
>> In my opinion, the world is not best served by hyper-optimizing for
>> the most frequent and shallow interests of the largest majorities.
>
> That's exactly my opinion, too. I am trying to back it with data.
>
> --
> אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>
> "We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Gregory Maxwell
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
>> occupied is filled with nothing now.
>
> Interface clutter is not psychologically free.  Empty space is better
> than space filled with mostly-useless controls.  Whether these
> particular controls are worth it I don't know, but the general
> principle of hiding seldom-used things is sound.


Mostly-useless is not the same as infrequent.

I think that this is a critical error people make when trying to be
data-driven. (I strongly support and promote data driven decision
making, but also fear that it can be so frequently misused)

For example, the stats show 14 million page views a day from
blackberry.  14m is not frequent compared to 3.6billion.  (0.0038 BB
users per user), and yet that number represents an enormous number of
people in _absolute terms_ whos ability to use Wikipedia may be
degraded, disrupted, or completely inhibited right now.

Likewise, I do not doubt that only "One in big_number" followed an
interwiki link, but the fact that more people use the site doesn't
remove the value received by the smaller group ... which, because of
the size of the site, might still consist of a hundred thousand
people.


You can attempt a weighted cost comparison:    Num_interwiki_users *
Cost_of_hiding   vs   Everyone_else * Cost_of_clutter.    But even
that will inevitably lead to bad conclusions for some issues because
the costs are usually not linear things:   A tiny benefit to a hundred
million people wouldn't justify making wikipedia very hard to use for
a hundred thousand,  ... because a zillion tiny benefits can often
never really offset a smaller number of big costs.

Contention about applying linear costing to things with non-linear or
outright incomparable values is why people get worked up when deaths
get imported into a cost/benefit analysis.   It is somewhat crude of
me to compare killing someone with inhibiting their use of Wikipedia,
but I think the same problem with cost/benefit analysis exists there—
if only in a very reduced form.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Pronoein
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

When you enter your car and drive to your destination, you make hundreds
of gestures but use only once the key, at the beginning. Yet without an
easy, obvious access to the keyhole, you wouldn't drive at all.
My point? Frequency of click is not the ultimate criterium. Some links
are required to be easily and immediately available because of their
importance (they may even be a requisite) and order of use.

A probable scenario: people reaching wikipedia on a foreign language
click just once on the correct language, then may browse hundreds of
articles without changing the language again.
Since their first need may be to define the language, it should be
obviously available and just one click away.



On 02/06/2010 21:48, Aryeh Gregor wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
>> occupied is filled with nothing now.
>
> Interface clutter is not psychologically free.  Empty space is better
> than space filled with mostly-useless controls.  Whether these
> particular controls are worth it I don't know, but the general
> principle of hiding seldom-used things is sound.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMBtrwAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6L1ScIAL7gDStxV+L9w02yHPtWEQ/h
gSdL0ka+k9hXWKaZQGyRx9bBT9KFxbPCEfuJ0HgY8ioYUvQvxcP+ArblHfNsqnK7
4ULxQBijsrkorf7Uo/s3jZ9xMOPdtKag604riI1CKmbE1z7WJR/kqnqsiylVp2F1
nT6i6IYCSRcGFd6wkV+wA841YRIRVwNLCD2esQvi/s4r0H2RV2u0vavmLNHWNieZ
vRPAmNw5Gdhtfgf6FSLBiV0IwdNA9md18KuKH52rkOIK7aqXa15BOzWhy/TAdPip
4JYIoCOgZ6XAk4vpL4skC7RENyOGv1ftJXYXno6XrSmrt9KHM70zdkj9nkudKIQ=
=xoan
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Gregory Maxwell
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You can attempt a weighted cost comparison:    Num_interwiki_users *
> Cost_of_hiding   vs   Everyone_else * Cost_of_clutter.    But even
> that will inevitably lead to bad conclusions for some issues because
> the costs are usually not linear things:   A tiny benefit to a hundred
> million people wouldn't justify making wikipedia very hard to use for
> a hundred thousand,  ... because a zillion tiny benefits can often
> never really offset a smaller number of big costs.

They can't?  Why not?

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Aryeh Gregor
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You can attempt a weighted cost comparison:    Num_interwiki_users *
>> Cost_of_hiding   vs   Everyone_else * Cost_of_clutter.    But even
>> that will inevitably lead to bad conclusions for some issues because
>> the costs are usually not linear things:   A tiny benefit to a hundred
>> million people wouldn't justify making wikipedia very hard to use for
>> a hundred thousand,  ... because a zillion tiny benefits can often
>> never really offset a smaller number of big costs.
>
> They can't?  Why not?

. . . well, I can expand on this a bit.  Wikipedia's goals can be
summarized as "Give people access to free knowledge".  This can be
measured lots of different ways, of course.  But I see no reason why
they shouldn't all scale more or less linearly in the number of people
affected.  If we can get an extra piece of useful information to a
billion people over the course of a year, why isn't that a billion
times better on average than getting an extra piece of useful
information to one person, for any definition of "useful"?  If it
isn't exactly a billion times, why should we believe that it's less
than a billion (as you seem to suggest) rather than more?

Cost-benefit analyses involving death are the same.  People would like
to claim that lives and money are incommensurable, say, but that's
patently false.  No one would advocate spending a trillion dollars to
save one person's life -- if nothing else, you could save many
people's lives for the same amount.  Even if your only goal is to save
lives in the short term, a life is worth *at most* X dollars, because
you can straightforwardly exchange dollars for lives saved.  In
practice, X is probably less than 1,000 if you spend it right.

When you deal with everyday situations, then saying "lives and money
are incommensurable" is a good enough approximation.  It doesn't work
if you have lots of lives, or lots of money, or ways to exchange lives
and money that don't come up in everyday situations.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Noein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When you enter your car and drive to your destination, you make hundreds
> of gestures but use only once the key, at the beginning.

And it would be a mistake to omit the keyhole altogether, or to make
it hard to find if you look.  But there's no need to make it as
obtrusive and easy to reach as the steering wheel or the pedals.
Indeed, you shouldn't, because that would take away attention and
space from things that are more often used.

> A probable scenario: people reaching wikipedia on a foreign language
> click just once on the correct language, then may browse hundreds of
> articles without changing the language again.

Is this probable?  What are people's reasons for using interlanguage
links?  How many people miss them now that they're collapsed -- among
the readership as a whole, not the extremely vocal and committed
editors who read foundation-l and will find them easily anyway?

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

James Alexander-3
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]<Simetrical%[hidden email]>
> wrote:

> Is this probable?  What are people's reasons for using interlanguage
> links?  How many people miss them now that they're collapsed -- among
> the readership as a whole, not the extremely vocal and committed
> editors who read foundation-l and will find them easily anyway?
>

I have no factual info at all but enough people know I'm active in Wikipedia
that they tell me things about it (sometimes to an annoying level) and I've
had at least 5 ask me why we eliminated the language links in the redo. I
know that Casey said the same thing in a comment on the bug asking for this
to be changed (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23497) so
while I have nothing concrete about it I do think it is a problem.


James Alexander
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Austin Hair
In reply to this post by Gregory Maxwell
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
> occupied is filled with nothing now.
>
> They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
> and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.
>
> Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
> discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
> following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
> language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
> to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
> foreign language box.

I agree with every one of these points, and want to emphasize the
last—a person may be able to recognize the word for his language in
another random language, but he probably won't recognize the word for
"language" itself.  (I think I can recognize it in most European
languages and maybe a handful of others, but that's still assuming I
was actively looking for it in the first place.)

Last night I was discussing this with Finne (henna), and she proposed
that we might show a default list based on the user's most likely
language(s), while still keeping the others collapsed by default.

This could be done using the HTTP accept-language header—which would,
at the very least, show you your native language.  (And perhaps, if
someone's feeling adventurous, augment that using a GeoIP system.
There are lots of possibilities.)

But I'm not volunteering to code it, and I'm not asking anyone else
to.  I'd be happy if we just returned to the previous, useful
behavior.

Austin

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Fajro
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Austin Hair <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Who cares if people click them a lot?  The space they formally
>> occupied is filled with nothing now.
>>
>> They were equally valuable as a marketing statement about the breadth
>> and inclusiveness of our project as they were as a navigational tool.
>>
>> Concealing them behind the languages box also significantly reduces
>> discoverability for the people who need it most: Someone who, through
>> following links, ends up on a wikipedia which is not in their primary
>> language. Before they needed to scroll down past a wall of difficult
>> to read foreign language, now they need to do that and expand some
>> foreign language box.
>
> I agree with every one of these points, and want to emphasize the
> last—a person may be able to recognize the word for his language in
> another random language, but he probably won't recognize the word for
> "language" itself.

Maybe we should support the "Language Icon" idea:

http://languageicon.org/index-icon.php

--
Fajro

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Erik Moeller-4
2010/6/3 Fajro <[hidden email]>:
> Maybe we should support the "Language Icon" idea:
>
> http://languageicon.org/index-icon.php

That icon seems about as intuitive as the name "Hyperion
Frobnosticating Endoswitch" for FlaggedRevs. The only relevant mental
association that comes to mind is "robot tongue".
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Austin Hair
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Austin Hair <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Last night I was discussing this with Finne (henna), and she proposed
> that we might show a default list based on the user's most likely
> language(s), while still keeping the others collapsed by default.
>
> This could be done using the HTTP accept-language header—which would,
> at the very least, show you your native language.  (And perhaps, if
> someone's feeling adventurous, augment that using a GeoIP system.
> There are lots of possibilities.)

This is a good idea.  It could be easily done in JavaScript without
affecting cacheability, at least if you just use language info
available to JS.  (The collapsing is only done using JS to begin
with.)  But the content language in the browser is often unreliable,
I've been told, so it's not a complete solution.  Geolocation would be
more reliable -- especially if we can pick the most likely few
languages to display -- but much harder to implement properly.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Austin Hair
2010/6/3 Austin Hair <[hidden email]>:
> Last night I was discussing this with Finne (henna), and she proposed
> that we might show a default list based on the user's most likely
> language(s), while still keeping the others collapsed by default.

Yes, we discussed this internally as well as a better path to exposse
Wikipedia's multilingual nature than to dump a long list of native
language names in the sidebar (we might have an expansion link such as
"Show X other languages" to indicate the large number of language
versions available). I hope this is a path to an acceptable
compromise. I support the rationale behind collapsing the full list:
the vast majority of the information in it tends to be noise to the
average user.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Michael Snow-3
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
Erik Moeller wrote:

> 2010/6/3 Fajro <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> Maybe we should support the "Language Icon" idea:
>>
>> http://languageicon.org/index-icon.php
>>    
> That icon seems about as intuitive as the name "Hyperion
> Frobnosticating Endoswitch" for FlaggedRevs. The only relevant mental
> association that comes to mind is "robot tongue".
>  
As a sports fan, to me it looks like the backboard of a basketball hoop.
I actually rather liked "Hyperion Frobnosticating Endoswitch", but such
a wonderful name deserves to find a more worthy home than the MediaWiki
pending changes feature.

--Michael Snow

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

James Alexander-3
We have a couple threads on this issue but picking the most recent :). It
appears that this has now been changed (
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23497 ) and so once the next
revision is pushed live the interwikis would be visible by default.

James Alexander
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

Fajro
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> http://languageicon.org/index-icon.php
>
> That icon seems about as intuitive as the name "Hyperion
> Frobnosticating Endoswitch" for FlaggedRevs.

We could make a different icon, the idea is having a single symbol for
"language".

>The only relevant mental
> association that comes to mind is "robot tongue".

Then it is quite intuitive.  :P

Anyway, I prefer to have the language list as before.

--
Fajro

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
1234 ... 8