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multilingual mailing list

John Mark Vandenberg
was: Steward election issues

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Thomas Goldammer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why don't we just write in our respective native language, all of us.
> XD Would make communication much funnier, I guess. :p

I agree, that it would be funnier, but I doubt most folk on
foundation-l will agree.

Do we have a multilingual mailing list?

I think it would be a good idea to have a general discussion list
where anyone, especially newbies, can write in their preferred
language.
Someone in our community is sure to understand and be able to respond.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Casey Brown-5
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:17 PM, John Vandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Thomas Goldammer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Why don't we just write in our respective native language, all of us.
>> XD Would make communication much funnier, I guess. :p
>
> I agree, that it would be funnier, but I doubt most folk on
> foundation-l will agree.
>
> Do we have a multilingual mailing list?
>
> I think it would be a good idea to have a general discussion list
> where anyone, especially newbies, can write in their preferred
> language.
> Someone in our community is sure to understand and be able to respond.

This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.  The
issue with Meria's messages have been that she's just been saying the
same thing over and over again:  "please write in Spanish".  If she
wanted to respond to something in Spanish, that would have been fine.

What Thomas says may seem like a joke, but it's actually something
that's happened on this list in the past. :-)  I remember a thread
where I was talking with someone in English while they responded in
German.  We used Google Translate to figure out what each other was
saying and then we responded in our own language.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: multilingual mailing list

John Mark Vandenberg
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Casey Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:17 PM, John Vandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Thomas Goldammer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Why don't we just write in our respective native language, all of us.
>>> XD Would make communication much funnier, I guess. :p
>>
>> I agree, that it would be funnier, but I doubt most folk on
>> foundation-l will agree.
>>
>> Do we have a multilingual mailing list?
>>
>> I think it would be a good idea to have a general discussion list
>> where anyone, especially newbies, can write in their preferred
>> language.
>> Someone in our community is sure to understand and be able to respond.
>
> This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.

While they are welcome, they are typically shoveled away to another
list very quickly.

A multilingual space is one where English is not the principle
language, and/or people are not expected to use English if they can.
foundation-l *does* expect people to use English if they can.
My guess is that English is not the preferred language for over 50% of
the regular posters on foundation-l, and yet they use English.

Pedro's assessment is the reality:

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2011/3/8 Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>:
>> Lo sentimos, pero el Inglés es el idioma principal en esta lista.
>
> :Not only is english the main idioma, dare I say the only one (any
> thread started on another language would raise complains and quickly
> turned into english)

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Huib Laurens
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-5
2011/3/8 Casey Brown <[hidden email]>

> \
> What Thomas says may seem like a joke, but it's actually something
> that's happened on this list in the past. :-)  I remember a thread
> where I was talking with someone in English while they responded in
> German.  We used Google Translate to figure out what each other was
> saying and then we responded in our own language.
>

I remember a French case also :-)

--
Regards,
Huib "Abigor" Laurens



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Re: multilingual mailing list

Austin Hair
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-5
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Casey Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:17 PM, John Vandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Do we have a multilingual mailing list?
>>
>> I think it would be a good idea to have a general discussion list
>> where anyone, especially newbies, can write in their preferred
>> language.
>> Someone in our community is sure to understand and be able to respond.
>
> This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.  The
> issue with Meria's messages have been that she's just been saying the
> same thing over and over again:  "please write in Spanish".  If she
> wanted to respond to something in Spanish, that would have been fine.

Casey's right—this is, in fact, the official policy of the list. You
can write in whatever language you want, just don't expect much of a
reply if you do it in a language that only three other people on the
list understand.

My reply to Maria was overly simplistic and dismissive, but only
because (a) she was just writing "I don't speak English, Spanish
please," and (b) she did it like six times. If my head were back in
California, I could perhaps have given her a better reply, and it's
somewhat regrettable that my Spanish skills went down the toilet when
I moved to the (no longer Spanish) Netherlands.

(As an aside, does anyone know the appropriate Spanish verb for "to
moderate" in this context? I didn't actually ban her, I just couldn't
come up with a better word.)

Austin

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Casey Brown-5
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Austin Hair <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (As an aside, does anyone know the appropriate Spanish verb for "to
> moderate" in this context? I didn't actually ban her, I just couldn't
> come up with a better word.)

I'm pretty sure that it's "moderar".
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moderar>  That seems to be the
translate that mailman uses too.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Victor Vasiliev
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-5
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Casey Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:>
> This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.

Ты это серьёзно? Мне кажется, письме на двадцатом Google Translate
всем изрядно надоест. К тому же как быть с просторечиями и
фразеологизмами, на которых автоматические переводчики постоянно
спотыкаются?

-Виктор Васильев
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Re: multilingual mailing list

Casey Brown-5
2011/3/8 Victor Vasiliev <[hidden email]>:
> Ты это серьёзно? Мне кажется, письме на двадцатом Google Translate
> всем изрядно надоест. К тому же как быть с просторечиями и
> фразеологизмами, на которых автоматические переводчики постоянно
> спотыкаются?

It's not perfect, but it's better than saying "Victor, speak English
or stfu." :-)  You use it to get a basic idea of what was said and
then respond based on that.  In the few times that we've tried it, it
hasn't been that much of an issue.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
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Re: multilingual mailing list

Thomas Goldammer
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-5
>
> What Thomas says may seem like a joke, but it's actually something
> that's happened on this list in the past. :-)  I remember a thread
> where I was talking with someone in English while they responded in
> German.  We used Google Translate to figure out what each other was
> saying and then we responded in our own language.
>

It was only half a joke. ;) I did really want to suggest that other
languages are allowed on the list, but this is obviously already the
case, so it's fine with me. :) María may use Google Translate to get
the important points, and answer in Spanish if she so wishes. Most
people who have learnt any of the Romance languages or Latin can make
some sense of Spanish anyway so that there is no real problem. ;)

Th.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

metasj
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
John Vandenberg writes:
>> This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.
>
> While they are welcome, they are typically shoveled away to another
> list very quickly.
>
> A multilingual space is one where English is not the principle
> language, and/or people are not expected to use English if they can.
> foundation-l *does* expect people to use English if they can.

I don't want to anthropomorphize the list, but it's certainly true
that having 99 out of 100 messages in English makes people who want to
write in other languages feel shy.

Most of the deeply eloquent people whose posts I enjoy reading on
lists in other languages do not post here; possibly because they don't
care for the topic but possibly because it takes more effort to be
eloquent in English. And presumably this assumption makes some people
not sign up at all.

It might not be a bad idea to have a multilingual foundation list
where the expectation is inverted -- that most people won't use
English unless it is their best language, or they find it necessary to
communicate.

--
Samuel Klein          identi.ca:sj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
Zen is very good way to contemplate limitations of human nature.

One of the limitations is very limited ability to learn languages.
There are more than 5000 languages in the world and just extraordinary
individuals are able to speak more than 10. And when I say "speak", my
ru-2 is not counted.

Because of that genetically inherited disability, humans tend to learn
one language common for the cultural context in which they live, which
is called "lingua franca". With some pauses, from ~100BC to 1900 it
was Latin in Western Europe. In Eastern and Central Africa it is
Swahili. And today it is English in the world. Or at least on
Internet.

So, there are a couple of options: (1) Change gravitational constant
locally with the aim to catapult all English language out of Earth.
(2) Learn all languages of the world. (3) Invent new lingua franca and
teach everybody to use it.

Or just try Zen. It is not American, you are safe.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

phoebe ayers-3
In reply to this post by Casey Brown-5
2011/3/8 Casey Brown <[hidden email]>:

> 2011/3/8 Victor Vasiliev <[hidden email]>:
>> Ты это серьёзно? Мне кажется, письме на двадцатом Google Translate
>> всем изрядно надоест. К тому же как быть с просторечиями и
>> фразеологизмами, на которых автоматические переводчики постоянно
>> спотыкаются?
>
> It's not perfect, but it's better than saying "Victor, speak English
> or stfu." :-)  You use it to get a basic idea of what was said and
> then respond based on that.  In the few times that we've tried it, it
> hasn't been that much of an issue.

I know not everyone uses Gmail, but for those that do: the labs
"message translation" extension rocks my world.

And yes, please, please write in the language you are most comfortable
in (which is English for me, so it's hard for me to lead by example in
promoting a multilingual list!)

-- phoebe

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Re: multilingual mailing list

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On 8 March 2011 23:03, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Because of that genetically inherited disability, humans tend to learn
> one language common for the cultural context in which they live, which
> is called "lingua franca". With some pauses, from ~100BC to 1900 it
> was Latin in Western Europe. In Eastern and Central Africa it is
> Swahili. And today it is English in the world. Or at least on
> Internet.


"Karibu foundation-l. Lugha rasmi hapa ni Kiswahili na Kiingereza."


- d.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Alison M. Wheeler

----- "David Gerard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Karibu foundation-l. Lugha rasmi hapa ni Kiswahili na Kiingereza."

Nini ni lugha ya si Kiklingoni? Ingekuwa kwamba kuwa sawa na haki kwa wote. Au Kiesperanto labda?

Alison

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Re: multilingual mailing list

David Gerard-2
2011/3/9 Alison M. Wheeler <[hidden email]>:
> ----- "David Gerard" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> "Karibu foundation-l. Lugha rasmi hapa ni Kiswahili na Kiingereza."

> Nini ni lugha ya si Kiklingoni? Ingekuwa kwamba kuwa sawa na haki kwa wote. Au Kiesperanto labda?


Hovercraft yangu ni kamili ya Eles.


- d.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Thomas Goldammer
Kusema Kiswahili ni kuzuri! Kutoka leo tunataka kuandika Kiswahilini.
Huko munakupendeza.

Th.

2011/3/10 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:

> 2011/3/9 Alison M. Wheeler <[hidden email]>:
>> ----- "David Gerard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> "Karibu foundation-l. Lugha rasmi hapa ni Kiswahili na Kiingereza."
>
>> Nini ni lugha ya si Kiklingoni? Ingekuwa kwamba kuwa sawa na haki kwa wote. Au Kiesperanto labda?
>
>
> Hovercraft yangu ni kamili ya Eles.
>

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
2011/3/9 phoebe ayers <[hidden email]>:
> I know not everyone uses Gmail, but for those that do: the labs
> "message translation" extension rocks my world.

Thanks for the recommendation. I've just turned it on and this thread
now makes far more sense!

That said, it still doesn't make much sense. Automatic translators are
getting quite good, but they still aren't really ready for this kind
of use. The chance of misunderstanding someone is very high and,
especially on a list like this one where emotions tend to run high,
that can be very bad. Even those of us that speak fluent English have
difficulty understanding each other quite often on this list!

If you want an annoucement list or a simple Q&A list, then everyone
posting in their own language works reasonably well. If you want a
genuine *discussion* list, then I think you do need to use a language
that everyone speaks. Unfortunately, that isn't possible, so we have
to do the next best thing and use the language which the most people
speak, which is English.

I have no objection to people using this list for announcements and
Q&As, but if people are wanting proper discussion then I strongly
recommend sticking to English.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

mike.wikipedia@gmail.com
In reply to this post by John Mark Vandenberg
> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 01:05:59 +0300
> From: Victor Vasiliev <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] multilingual mailing list
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>        <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTingbZREF8n5A-yhjsh7+igUH3TSCMCjKtpRSE=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Casey Brown <[hidden email]>
> wrote:>
> > This *is* a multilingual list. ?All languages are welcome here.
>
> ?? ??? ????????? ??? ???????, ?????? ?? ????????? Google Translate
> ???? ??????? ???????. ? ???? ?? ??? ???? ? ????????????? ?
> ???????????????, ?? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? ?????????
> ????????????
>
> -?????? ????????
>
>
And with some luck, the foundation-l Digest could even include non-ascii
characters in the mail aggregation, instead of the sequence of question
marks I see above :)
This is of course also a problem for English texts that reference e.g. names
with accented characters and the like (and yes, I do know about the
work-around of going via http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l).

\Mike
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Re: multilingual mailing list

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
2011/3/9 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:
> I have no objection to people using this list for announcements and
> Q&As, but if people are wanting proper discussion then I strongly
> recommend sticking to English.

I have no objection to people having discussions on this list in any
language, and I'm not sure why you would. Unfortunately, it seems like
for most languages that would be a bit of an exercise in futility as
all active members are fluent in English, but only a fraction of us
are fluent in any other given language. If someone makes a post in
Serbian expecting an active and vibrant discussion here, they'll
probably be disappointed as we don't have a whole lot of Serbian
speakers here, and if just one is not interested in that particular
topic, it'll die pretty quickly.

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Re: multilingual mailing list

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Austin Hair
Austin Hair, 08/03/2011 23:01:
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Casey Brown wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:17 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
>>> Do we have a multilingual mailing list? [...]
>>
>> This *is* a multilingual list.  All languages are welcome here.  [...]
>
> Casey's right—this is, in fact, the official policy of the list.

Another list where this is official policy (and more clearly stated) is
Internal-l (for those who are subscribed: check the first messages).
A really (and not only formally) multilingual list is the new iberocoop
list, started after the last Wikimania
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Iberocoop ).

Nemo

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