new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

WikiMedia Commons mailing list
Hi everyone!

George Oates, the designer behind Flickr, Flickr Commons and Open Library (among others) has looked at Wikimedia Commons and gives tips from her perspective how it can be improved.


The interview is also cross-posted to Medium, where you can leave comments:


There's also discussion about this post going on at the Wikimedia Commons village pump, and in the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group.



Cheers! Sandra

--
Sandra Fauconnier
Program Officer, GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation
Twitter: @glamwiki

How Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums work with Wikimedia communities: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM

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Re: [GLAM] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Does anyone else feel weird seeing the Wikimedia Foundation
encouraging its volunteers to go to Medium and Facebook to give
feedback?

Medium and Facebook are commercial platforms with Medium using
paywalls to force visitors to pay to read. Promoting these sites using
WMF funded content seems to go directly against the stated WMF top
level values.

Thanks
Fae

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 08:58, Sandra Fauconnier
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone!
>
> George Oates, the designer behind Flickr, Flickr Commons and Open Library (among others) has looked at Wikimedia Commons and gives tips from her perspective how it can be improved.
>
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/2018/10/29/george-oates-conversation/
>
> The interview is also cross-posted to Medium, where you can leave comments:
>
> https://medium.com/freely-sharing-the-sum-of-all-knowledge/how-could-wikimedia-commons-be-improved-a-conversation-with-designer-george-oates-f67debbafe44
>
> There's also discussion about this post going on at the Wikimedia Commons village pump, and in the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Blog_post:_interview_with_George_Oates_about_Wikimedia_Commons
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1879946208719868/
>
> Cheers! Sandra
>
> --
> Sandra Fauconnier
> Program Officer, GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation
> Twitter: @glamwiki
>
> How Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums work with Wikimedia communities: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM
> _______________________________________________
> GLAM mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/glam

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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In reply to this post by WikiMedia Commons mailing list
Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> Medium, where you can leave comments:

It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
proprietary platform.

Federico

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
>> Medium, where you can leave comments:
>
> It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> proprietary platform.

Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.

I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.

Regards,
Iván
--
Iván Hernández Cazorla
Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
Miembro de Wikimedia España
https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Agree with Federico.


Additionally:

Wondering why a single person is getting consulted, generally onwiki is the best way to get feedback (at least it was done so for over a decade). Imho the blogpost is biased, i don't agree with everything what is written there.  Is she even active on commons?


I thought a while what to write here, honesty ... i was a bit upset after reading the Blogpost. 


"How could Wikimedia Commons be improved?" This is something... which the community who created Wikimedia Commons should be asked.


https://wikimediafoundation.org/2018/10/29/george-oates-conversation/


--Steinsplitter
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Steinsplitter/






Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 14:08
An: Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 
Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> Medium, where you can leave comments:

It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
proprietary platform.

Federico

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Sorry, i have to correct: everything  --> a few things

[Edit button missing ;)]



Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Steinsplitter Wiki via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 14:22
An: Wikimedia Commons Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 

Agree with Federico.


Additionally:

Wondering why a single person is getting consulted, generally onwiki is the best way to get feedback (at least it was done so for over a decade). Imho the blogpost is biased, i don't agree with everything what is written there.  Is she even active on commons?


I thought a while what to write here, honesty ... i was a bit upset after reading the Blogpost. 


"How could Wikimedia Commons be improved?" This is something... which the community who created Wikimedia Commons should be asked.


https://wikimediafoundation.org/2018/10/29/george-oates-conversation/


--Steinsplitter
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Steinsplitter/






Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 14:08
An: Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 
Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> Medium, where you can leave comments:

It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
proprietary platform.

Federico

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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In reply to this post by WikiMedia Commons mailing list
I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are.  

Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant 


On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
>> Medium, where you can leave comments:
>
> It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> proprietary platform.

Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.

I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.

Regards,
Iván
--
Iván Hernández Cazorla
Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
Miembro de Wikimedia España
https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
_______________________________________________
Commons-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


--
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.


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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are.  
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Some quick thoughts from me.

I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.

As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are. 
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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>>I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.


I see Sara posted it on the VP as well: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Blog_post:_interview_with_George_Oates_about_Wikimedia_Commons


:)


>>As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.



This is true as well.

BTW: If my initial post sounded a bit rude, please excuse for that. 😊

--Steinsplitter


Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Magnus Manske via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 15:43
An: Walter Siegmund; Wikimedia Commons Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 
Some quick thoughts from me.

I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.

As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are. 
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

WikiMedia Commons mailing list
Hi everyone,

I did indeed include the link to the Village Pump discussion in my original post, but not in the best or most visible/encouraging way. My apologies. It's not at all my intention to force anyone to use a platform they don't like, and I apologize again if I gave that impression.

Many people in our communities discuss very actively and constructively on Facebook, and increasingly on Telegram, and probably on quite a few other platforms that may or may not be aligned with our values as much as we would like. As a long-time Wikimedian in my free time, I'm a strong open source and OpenGLAM advocate and fan, but I will be the first to admit I'm not a purist, I do indeed use Facebook and a few of these other Evil Places, and I don't mind tracking (and pointing to) conversations happening elsewhere. I do feel conflicted about this (like about many other things in that complicated thing called life) but I give priority to hearing more voices here.

The interview is indeed intended as a 'fresh' perspective from an informed outsider. While we may not agree with everything George says, hopefully there are nuggets of interesting feedback that we can use to our benefit. This is not meant to replace the community's ideas, needs and vision at all. It's additional to it.

Cheers, Sandra

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 3:48 PM Steinsplitter Wiki via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:


>>I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.


I see Sara posted it on the VP as well: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Blog_post:_interview_with_George_Oates_about_Wikimedia_Commons


:)


>>As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.



This is true as well.

BTW: If my initial post sounded a bit rude, please excuse for that. 😊

--Steinsplitter


Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Magnus Manske via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 15:43
An: Walter Siegmund; Wikimedia Commons Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 
Some quick thoughts from me.

I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.

As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are. 
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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--
Sandra Fauconnier
Program Officer, GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation
Twitter: @glamwiki

How Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums work with Wikimedia communities: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

WikiMedia Commons mailing list
So, no learning points from this expensive feedback, cost measured in volunteer time and damage to good will from the most active and committed volunteers.

Sorry, do not expect me to believe in future political statements of values and ethics from the WMF, when they are thrown away at any slight inconvenience. 

Fae

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 15:23 Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

I did indeed include the link to the Village Pump discussion in my original post, but not in the best or most visible/encouraging way. My apologies. It's not at all my intention to force anyone to use a platform they don't like, and I apologize again if I gave that impression.

Many people in our communities discuss very actively and constructively on Facebook, and increasingly on Telegram, and probably on quite a few other platforms that may or may not be aligned with our values as much as we would like. As a long-time Wikimedian in my free time, I'm a strong open source and OpenGLAM advocate and fan, but I will be the first to admit I'm not a purist, I do indeed use Facebook and a few of these other Evil Places, and I don't mind tracking (and pointing to) conversations happening elsewhere. I do feel conflicted about this (like about many other things in that complicated thing called life) but I give priority to hearing more voices here.

The interview is indeed intended as a 'fresh' perspective from an informed outsider. While we may not agree with everything George says, hopefully there are nuggets of interesting feedback that we can use to our benefit. This is not meant to replace the community's ideas, needs and vision at all. It's additional to it.

Cheers, Sandra

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 3:48 PM Steinsplitter Wiki via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:


>>I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.


I see Sara posted it on the VP as well: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Blog_post:_interview_with_George_Oates_about_Wikimedia_Commons


:)


>>As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.



This is true as well.

BTW: If my initial post sounded a bit rude, please excuse for that. 😊

--Steinsplitter


Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Magnus Manske via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 15:43
An: Walter Siegmund; Wikimedia Commons Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
 
Some quick thoughts from me.

I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.

As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are. 
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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[hidden email]
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--
Sandra Fauconnier
Program Officer, GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation
Twitter: @glamwiki

How Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums work with Wikimedia communities: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM
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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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Michael 

On 31 Oct 2018, at 15:43, Magnus Manske via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some quick thoughts from me.

I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.

As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.

Cheers,
Magnus

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.

Best wishes,
Walter

> On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are. 
>
> Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
> > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
> >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
> >
> > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
> > proprietary platform.
>
> Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>
> I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
> the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>
> Regards,
> Iván
> --
> Iván Hernández Cazorla
> Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
> Miembro de Wikimedia España
> https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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In reply to this post by WikiMedia Commons mailing list
Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 17:23:
> It's not at all my intention to force anyone to use a platform they
> don't like, and I apologize again if I gave that impression.
> [...] I don't mind tracking (and pointing to)
> conversations happening elsewhere.

One thing is to "track" on proprietary platforms, another to encourage
them, and yet another to strong-arm people out of free software
alternatives (e.g. by shutting them down).

A post that is meant for an internal audience, to ignite discussion, has
no excuse whatsoever to be published on Medium.

Federico

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Re: new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons

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There is a detailed and factual post released today on Medium about
how poor a reader experience Medium is for blog posts, due to
tracking, profiling and banner advertising.[1]

For those that recall discussion in response to the WMF choice of
Facebook and Medium to communicate the report from George Oates last
month, this seems a decently factual summary of some of the reasons
why this is a poor practical choice for comms, as well as an ethical
issue when calmly measured against our open movement values.

The conclusion should ring alarm bells for any WMF staffer with
responsibility for Communications and is still tempted to promote
Medium by posting or cross-posting there, or indeed any other platform
which uses the same commercial techniques:
"Basically, you’re selling readers to aggressive Medium
self-advertising so that Medium could make laughably small money from
a miserable fraction of them. And annoy the hell out of everyone
else."

Links:
1. https://medium.com/@nikitonsky/medium-is-a-poor-choice-for-blogging-bb0048d19133

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 15:33, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> So, no learning points from this expensive feedback, cost measured in volunteer time and damage to good will from the most active and committed volunteers.
>
> Sorry, do not expect me to believe in future political statements of values and ethics from the WMF, when they are thrown away at any slight inconvenience.
>
> Fae
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 15:23 Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I did indeed include the link to the Village Pump discussion in my original post, but not in the best or most visible/encouraging way. My apologies. It's not at all my intention to force anyone to use a platform they don't like, and I apologize again if I gave that impression.
>>
>> Many people in our communities discuss very actively and constructively on Facebook, and increasingly on Telegram, and probably on quite a few other platforms that may or may not be aligned with our values as much as we would like. As a long-time Wikimedian in my free time, I'm a strong open source and OpenGLAM advocate and fan, but I will be the first to admit I'm not a purist, I do indeed use Facebook and a few of these other Evil Places, and I don't mind tracking (and pointing to) conversations happening elsewhere. I do feel conflicted about this (like about many other things in that complicated thing called life) but I give priority to hearing more voices here.
>>
>> The interview is indeed intended as a 'fresh' perspective from an informed outsider. While we may not agree with everything George says, hopefully there are nuggets of interesting feedback that we can use to our benefit. This is not meant to replace the community's ideas, needs and vision at all. It's additional to it.
>>
>> Cheers, Sandra
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 3:48 PM Steinsplitter Wiki via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >>I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.
>>>
>>>
>>> I see Sara posted it on the VP as well: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Blog_post:_interview_with_George_Oates_about_Wikimedia_Commons
>>>
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>>
>>> >>As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is true as well.
>>>
>>> BTW: If my initial post sounded a bit rude, please excuse for that.
>>>
>>> --Steinsplitter
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Von: Commons-l <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Magnus Manske via Commons-l <[hidden email]>
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 15:43
>>> An: Walter Siegmund; Wikimedia Commons Discussion List
>>> Betreff: Re: [Commons-l] new blog post: interview with designer George Oates about Wikimedia Commons
>>>
>>> Some quick thoughts from me.
>>>
>>> I, too, find the Facebook/Medium discussion reroute unfortunate (I'm not even on Facebook), though it might help attract some more newcomers. I'm sure we can find a suitable place to discuss this on-wiki, and there should be an appropriate link for that.
>>>
>>> As for the actual topic of the interview, I am glad to see an outside opinion from someone who has experience with large, community-driven media repositories. I might not agree with all the sentiments, and structured data and out Next Big Thing did not exactly feature prominently, but I find it refreshing to leave the echo chamber once in a while.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:23 PM Walter Siegmund via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why should we Commons contributors participate in a discussion on Facebook, a corporation that has generated great wealth for its founder by distributing advertising that includes democracy-destroying and hate-filled propaganda? It is antithetical to the principles of most of our participants. I’m profoundly disappointed that a discussion on Facebook would be promoted by the office of GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Walter
>>>
>>> > On Oct 31, 2018, at 6:41 AM, Gnangarra via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I too dislike the idea of having to pay to contribute to a discussion about Wikimedia Commons.  I also see some irony in advice from a platform that being generous can be described as having lost its way many years ago, yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. As others have said collectively we are capable of amazing things, we are doing something special as we look forward we mustn't lose sight what our purpose is and our goals are.
>>> >
>>> > Dont forget https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Structured_data will have impact so much of what is spoken about wont be relevant
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 21:15, Iván Hernández Cazorla via Commons-l <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > On 31/10/18 13:08, Federico Leva (Nemo) via Commons-l wrote:
>>> > > Sandra Fauconnier via Commons-l, 31/10/2018 10:58:
>>> > >> Medium, where you can leave comments:
>>> > >
>>> > > It's truly terrible if we're now outsourcing comments to an external
>>> > > proprietary platform.
>>> >
>>> > Totally agree with both of you, Federico and Fae.
>>> >
>>> > I don't understand the outsourcing of comments nor the promotion from
>>> > the Wikimedia Foundation of services as Facebook.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Iván
>>> > --
>>> > Iván Hernández Cazorla
>>> > Historiador e interesado en las humanidades digitales
>>> > Miembro de Wikimedia España
>>> > https://ivanhercaz.com | https://keybase.io/ivanhercaz
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Commons-l mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > GN.
>>> > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
>>> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>> > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here.
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Commons-l mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sandra Fauconnier
>> Program Officer, GLAM and Structured Data, Wikimedia Foundation
>> Twitter: @glamwiki
>>
>> How Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums work with Wikimedia communities: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM
>> _______________________________________________
>> Commons-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l

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