non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

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non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Amir E. Aharoni
Hi,

In MediaWiki, the <nowiki> tag was created for writing characters without
having them interpreted as wiki syntax. An obvious and direct use case for
this is writing help pages about editing wiki pages in wiki syntax, for
example:

Writing <nowiki>'''words between three apostrophes'''</nowiki> will show
them in bold font: '''words between three apostrophes'''.

Another related use case is demonstrating how templates work:

<nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
2018}}</nowiki>

However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a part
of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum".
It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
"nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This use
is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the German
language, which has a lot of long compound words.

Are there other languages where comparable hacks with <nowiki> exist,
dictated by the nature of the language or by any local policies?

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Bináris
Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):

>
> <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
> 2018}}</nowiki>
>
> However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
> as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a part
> of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum".
> It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This use
> is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the German
> language, which has a lot of long compound words.
>

We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Amir E. Aharoni
Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?

בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<[hidden email]>:

> Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
>
> >
> > <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
> > 2018}}</nowiki>
> >
> > However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
> > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a
> part
> > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki
> />reichtum".
> > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This
> use
> > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> German
> > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> >
>
> We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
> eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Bináris
Here is a list of removals. :-)
https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot&offset=20180912205000&target=BinBot&limit=28


Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):

> Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
>
> בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<[hidden email]>:
>
> > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> >
> > >
> > > <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> sentence|date=October
> > > 2018}}</nowiki>
> > >
> > > However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the
> same
> > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a
> > part
> > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki
> > />reichtum".
> > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This
> > use
> > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> > German
> > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > >
> >
> > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
> > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

C. Scott Ananian
https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid&diff=prev&oldid=20406147
illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where this
string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
`-<nowiki/>{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can cause
problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
`{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-<nowiki/>{bar}}`, even if
LanguageConverter is not enabled.

Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
dewiki, instead of using `<nowiki/>`?  What are cases where they *do* want
the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
distinguished?
 --scott

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a list of removals. :-)
>
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot&offset=20180912205000&target=BinBot&limit=28
>
>
> Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
>
> > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> >
> > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont:
> 2018.
> > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > >
> > > >
> > > > <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > sentence|date=October
> > > > 2018}}</nowiki>
> > > >
> > > > However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the
> > same
> > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking
> a
> > > part
> > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki
> > > />reichtum".
> > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the
> word
> > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words.
> This
> > > use
> > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> > > German
> > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided
> to
> > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Bináris
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



--
(http://cscott.net)
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Amir E. Aharoni
I'm really not an expert on German. However, I have been slowly analyzing
common trails in some other languages with purpose of doing smarter link
trailing some day. It's a very crazy and long term pet project :) In
theory, I could do it for German, too.

בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 18:39, מאת C. Scott Ananian ‏<
[hidden email]>:

>
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid&diff=prev&oldid=20406147
> illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where this
> string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
> `-<nowiki/>{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
> this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can cause
> problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
> `{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-<nowiki/>{bar}}`, even if
> LanguageConverter is not enabled.
>
> Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> dewiki, instead of using `<nowiki/>`?  What are cases where they *do* want
> the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
> distinguished?
>  --scott
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a list of removals. :-)
> >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot&offset=20180912205000&target=BinBot&limit=28
> >
> >
> > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> > okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
> >
> > > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> > >
> > > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<[hidden email]
> >:
> > >
> > > > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont:
> > 2018.
> > > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > > sentence|date=October
> > > > > 2018}}</nowiki>
> > > > >
> > > > > However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite
> the
> > > same
> > > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is
> linking
> > a
> > > > part
> > > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki
> > > > />reichtum".
> > > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the
> > word
> > > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words.
> > This
> > > > use
> > > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of
> the
> > > > German
> > > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just
> decided
> > to
> > > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bináris
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> (http://cscott.net)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Lucas Werkmeister
I’m not an expert on dewiki, but I assume they still want word-ending links
for simple stuff like [[Gesetz]]e (plural), [[Finger]]s (genitive). I would
guess these cases are still more common than the long compound words where
the <nowiki/> trick is used.

Am Do., 4. Okt. 2018 um 17:44 Uhr schrieb Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]>:

> I'm really not an expert on German. However, I have been slowly analyzing
> common trails in some other languages with purpose of doing smarter link
> trailing some day. It's a very crazy and long term pet project :) In
> theory, I could do it for German, too.
>
> בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 18:39, מאת C. Scott Ananian ‏<
> [hidden email]>:
>
> >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid&diff=prev&oldid=20406147
> > illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where
> this
> > string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
> > `-<nowiki/>{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
> > this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can
> cause
> > problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
> > `{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-<nowiki/>{bar}}`, even if
> > LanguageConverter is not enabled.
> >
> > Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> > dewiki, instead of using `<nowiki/>`?  What are cases where they *do*
> want
> > the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
> > distinguished?
> >  --scott
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Here is a list of removals. :-)
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot&offset=20180912205000&target=BinBot&limit=28
> > >
> > >
> > > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont:
> 2018.
> > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
> > >
> > > > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> > > >
> > > > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont:
> > > 2018.
> > > > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <nowiki>This sentence shows the template used at the
> end.{{Citation
> > > > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > > > sentence|date=October
> > > > > > 2018}}</nowiki>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, <nowiki> has less trivial use cases, that are not quite
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is
> > linking
> > > a
> > > > > part
> > > > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]<nowiki
> > > > > />reichtum".
> > > > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack:
> the
> > > word
> > > > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound
> words.
> > > This
> > > > > use
> > > > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of
> > the
> > > > > German
> > > > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just
> > decided
> > > to
> > > > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bináris
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > (http://cscott.net)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



--
Lucas Werkmeister
Software Developer (working student)

Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
https://wikimedia.de

Imagine a world, in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That‘s our commitment.

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Thiemo Kreuz
In reply to this post by C. Scott Ananian
Hey!

The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
<span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".

Not long ago <b/> was often used. This became a problem with the
recent parser updates. All <b/> got replaced with <nowiki />, as far
as I'm aware of.

> in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki, instead of using `<nowiki/>`? What are cases where they *do* want the link to include the entire word?

The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
[[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
linktrail to 2 characters.

Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?

Best
Thiemo

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern

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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Amir E. Aharoni
I once wrote some very, very silly code that kind of works for Hebrew, and
could possibly be adapted to other languages:

https://github.com/amire80/znavot

Pull requests welcome :)


בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 19:59, מאת Thiemo Kreuz ‏<
[hidden email]>:

> Hey!
>
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".
>
> Not long ago <b/> was often used. This became a problem with the
> recent parser updates. All <b/> got replaced with <nowiki />, as far
> as I'm aware of.
>
> > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki,
> instead of using `<nowiki/>`? What are cases where they *do* want the link
> to include the entire word?
>
> The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> linktrail to 2 characters.
>
> Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
>
> Best
> Thiemo
>
> [1]
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Bináris
In reply to this post by Thiemo Kreuz
The problem with all anti-linktrail practices is that they make search (or
search and replace) in the source very hard. This relies both to bot owners
and humans who use the insource: regex search engine.
I think a brand new approach would be necessary.
For example, [[foo]]bar would behave as now, generate a linktrail, while
[[foo]|]bar (a pipe character between the ckets) not. Another idea would be
]]] (3 ckets), but it could conflict with embedded brackets suchs as an
image description with linked text.
Thus all antisemantic workarounds for avoiding linktrailing would be
unnecessary.
We should always keep in mind that we try to approach a semantic wiki
(although this is partial except Wikibase).
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Daniel Kinzler-3
In reply to this post by Lucas Werkmeister
Am 04.10.2018 um 18:24 schrieb Lucas Werkmeister:
> I’m not an expert on dewiki, but I assume they still want word-ending links
> for simple stuff like [[Gesetz]]e (plural), [[Finger]]s (genitive). I would
> guess these cases are still more common than the long compound words where
> the <nowiki/> trick is used.

Well, linktrail is a regex, it could be changed to only match up to a certain
length :)

But what length is tricky to decide, and the effect may be surprising /
unpredictable. Limiting it to one letter is certainly not enough, what with
about  [[Heimat]]losigkeit and such....

All silliness aside: while dewiki has many uses for only linking part of a
compound, it has MANY MORE uses for linking all of it.

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Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Daniel Kinzler-3
In reply to this post by Thiemo Kreuz
Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".

We could introduce new syntax for this, such as &nope; or even &nowiki;.

Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"? But if
that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For better
or worse...

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Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

C. Scott Ananian
-{}- is already commonly used on LanguageConverter wikis for "this is a
syntactic element but does nothing except separate a word".
The preprocessor already understands it on all wikis, as well.  (But then
we explicitly serialize it to literally `-{}-` if your content language
doesn't have variants defined.)
  --scott

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 5:25 PM Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".
>
> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as &nope; or even &nowiki;.
>
> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> But if
> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> better
> or worse...
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



--
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Thiemo Kreuz
We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is almost
always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all cases I
have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.

Some examples on what insanity users write
- [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
- [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
- [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]

From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
- ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]<nowiki/>e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
- og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]<nowiki/>t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]

I have no clue what the previous means…

Things like the following is quite common
- [[Alexander Kielland]]<nowiki/>s
- [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]<nowiki/>s

Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
VE, but was told "no".

Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…


On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hey!
>
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".
>
> Not long ago <b/> was often used. This became a problem with the
> recent parser updates. All <b/> got replaced with <nowiki />, as far
> as I'm aware of.
>
> > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki,
> instead of using `<nowiki/>`? What are cases where they *do* want the link
> to include the entire word?
>
> The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> linktrail to 2 characters.
>
> Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
>
> Best
> Thiemo
>
> [1]
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Roul P.
Interesting, today this was topic in the German main forum:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#Anwendung_von_&shy;_in_Bildunterschriften

Today there are also more than one user indefinite blocked, which only
removed <nowiki/> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Entgr%C3%A4ten40

Am Fr., 5. Okt. 2018 um 00:29 Uhr schrieb John Erling Blad <[hidden email]
>:

> We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is almost
> always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
> composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all cases I
> have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.
>
> Some examples on what insanity users write
> - [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
> - [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
> - [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]
>
> From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
> - ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]<nowiki/>e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
> - og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]<nowiki/>t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]
>
> I have no clue what the previous means…
>
> Things like the following is quite common
> - [[Alexander Kielland]]<nowiki/>s
> - [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]<nowiki/>s
>
> Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
> VE, but was told "no".
>
> Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey!
> >
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".
> >
> > Not long ago <b/> was often used. This became a problem with the
> > recent parser updates. All <b/> got replaced with <nowiki />, as far
> > as I'm aware of.
> >
> > > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> dewiki,
> > instead of using `<nowiki/>`? What are cases where they *do* want the
> link
> > to include the entire word?
> >
> > The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> > same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> > [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> > language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> > linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> > always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> > surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> > would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> > down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> > linktrail to 2 characters.
> >
> > Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> > linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
> >
> > Best
> > Thiemo
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

John Erling Blad
Only thing more dangerous than running a bot on nowiki is running a bot on
dewiki.
Nope, newer touches dewiki.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:49 AM Roul P. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Interesting, today this was topic in the German main forum:
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#Anwendung_von_&shy;_in_Bildunterschriften
>
> Today there are also more than one user indefinite blocked, which only
> removed <nowiki/> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Entgr%C3%A4ten40
>
> Am Fr., 5. Okt. 2018 um 00:29 Uhr schrieb John Erling Blad <
> [hidden email]
> >:
>
> > We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is
> almost
> > always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
> > composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all
> cases I
> > have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.
> >
> > Some examples on what insanity users write
> > - [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
> > - [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
> > - [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]
> >
> > From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
> > - ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]<nowiki/>e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
> > - og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]<nowiki/>t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]
> >
> > I have no clue what the previous means…
> >
> > Things like the following is quite common
> > - [[Alexander Kielland]]<nowiki/>s
> > - [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]<nowiki/>s
> >
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
> in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
> > Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey!
> > >
> > > The syntax "[[Schnee]]<nowiki />reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > > <span /> or &shy; can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > example, "[[Bund]]<nowiki />estag" must become "[[Bund]]es&shy;tag".
> > >
> > > Not long ago <b/> was often used. This became a problem with the
> > > recent parser updates. All <b/> got replaced with <nowiki />, as far
> > > as I'm aware of.
> > >
> > > > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> > dewiki,
> > > instead of using `<nowiki/>`? What are cases where they *do* want the
> > link
> > > to include the entire word?
> > >
> > > The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> > > same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> > > [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> > > language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> > > linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> > > always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> > > surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> > > would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> > > down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> > > linktrail to 2 characters.
> > >
> > > Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> > > linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Thiemo
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by Daniel Kinzler-3
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?


Just make a template with a nice name ( {{~}} or something) and put the
nowiki in that.
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
> VE, but was told "no".
>

I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
Could you link to the task for this request? There is T128060
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128060> from early 2016 ("VisualEditor
makes it easy to create partially linked words, when the user expects a
fully linked one") but I don't see you on there, and I want to make sure I
understand your request.

Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
which presently have no links:

   - If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
   and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
   - If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
   highlighted text.

How would you propose this feature be changed?

Thanks,
Dan

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Lead Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

Amir E. Aharoni
‫בתאריך יום ו׳, 5 באוק׳ 2018 ב-16:59 מאת ‪Dan Garry‬‏ <‪[hidden email]
‬‏>:‬
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors
are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
>
> I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.

This is very frequent. I know that in the Hebrew Wikipedia it happens up to
20 times a day (I actually counted this for many months), and this is never
intentional or desirable. Never, ever. 100% of cases. The same must be true
for many other languages, but probably not for all. In wikis bigger than
the Hebrew Wikipedia it probably happens much more often than 20 times a
day.

It is possibly the most frequent reason for automatic insertion of <nowiki>
tags (although this may be different by language).

How does it happen? Several ways:
* People add a word ending to an existing link. English has very few word
endings (-s, -ing, -ed, -able, and not much more), but many other languages
have more.
* People highlight only a part of a word when they add a link, even though
they should have highlighted the whole word.
* In particular, people highlight the part of the word without an ending.
For example, "Dogs" is written, and people highlight "Dog".
* People sometimes actually want to write two separate words and forget to
write a space. (This may sound silly, but I saw this happening very often.)
* People write a compound word and link a part of the word. Sometimes it's
intentional, although as we can see in other emails in this thread not
everybody agrees about the desirability of this. This works very
differently in different languages. German has a lot of them, English has
much less, Hebrew has almost zero.

It's worth running proper user testing

> Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
> which presently have no links:
>
>    - If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
>    and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
>    - If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
>    highlighted text.

I know this, and I like how it works, but the fact is that there are many
other users who don't know this. Simply searching wikitext for
"]]<nowiki/>" will show how often does this happen.

> How would you propose this feature be changed?

One possibility is to not add <nowiki/> after a link. I proposed it, but it
was declined: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T141689 . The declining
comment links to T128060, which you mentioned in your email, and it's still
not resolved.

Other than fully stopping to do it, I cannot think of many other
possibilities. Maybe we could show a warning, although I suspect that many
users will ignore it or find it unnecessarily intrusive. I'm not a real
designer, and it's possible that a real designer can come with something
better.

Another thing we could consider is to link the whole word *by default*, and
to add another function that separates a link from the trail. I'd further
suggest the separation be done internally not by "<nowiki/>", but by some
other syntax that looks more semantic, for example "{{#sep}}" (this should
be a magic word and not a template!). My educated guess is that separating
the word from the link is much less frequent than wanting to link the whole
word. Part of my motivation for starting this thread was to understand how
does this work in different languages.
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Re: non-obvious uses of <nowiki> in your language

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Dan Garry
T129778

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 3:59 PM Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
> in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
>
> I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
> Could you link to the task for this request? There is T128060
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128060> from early 2016 ("VisualEditor
> makes it easy to create partially linked words, when the user expects a
> fully linked one") but I don't see you on there, and I want to make sure I
> understand your request.
>
> Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
> which presently have no links:
>
>    - If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
>    and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
>    - If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
>    highlighted text.
>
> How would you propose this feature be changed?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Editing
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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