ordered lists starting at a certain number

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ordered lists starting at a certain number

jidanni
Gentlemen, In wikitext I want to do <ol start="6101">
 <li>a
 <li>b
</ol>
but http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html says that is
deprecated. In fact I really want to just use "#" and have that
start at 6101.  OK, I'll just hard wire them into the page 6101. a
6102. b

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– Fixing {val}

Greg L
All,

Can anyone figure out how to fix {{tl|val}} so an expression like

{{val|0.55007|e=6}}

…works properly?

Greg L

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Re: – Fixing {val}

Platonides
Greg L wrote:
> All,
>
> Can anyone figure out how to fix {{tl|val}} so an expression like
>
> {{val|0.55007|e=6}}
>
> …works properly?
>
> Greg L


You can't figure out what it should do just from the description.
I imagine you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Val "Set of
templates that can be used to easily present values in scientific
notation, including uncertainty"
Another ugly template...


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Re: – Fixing {val}

Greg L
Yes, {val} is a tool for making attractive and convenient scientific  
notation. The look of {{tl|val}} was discussed at length on both  
WT:MOSNUM and WT:MOS and achieved broad support for how it works and  
renders numbers. It delimits numbers with narrow spaces that aren’t  
really “spaces”; they use CSS <span> tags to move characters. Thus,  
the significands can be copied and pasted into Excel where they will  
be treated as real numbers without the need to first hand-delete spaces.

The problem with it {val} is outlined here at…

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=260819871 
  -
Developer_support_for_parser_function

In a nutshell, about 5 to 10% of the time, {val} gives rounding  
errors. For instance, the expression  {{val|0.55007|e=6}} will return  
a significand of 0.550069.

This is the product of the buggy math-based parser functions it must  
use. To date, notwithstanding that Jimbo is solidly behind this, and  
that Erik supports the production of the required parser function, no  
volunteer developer has stepped up to the plate with a parser function  
that can character-counting parser function.

Greg


On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Platonides wrote:

Greg L wrote:
> All,
>
> Can anyone figure out how to fix {{tl|val}} so an expression like
>
> {{val|0.55007|e=6}}
>
> …works properly?
>
> Greg L


You can't figure out what it should do just from the description.
I imagine you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Val "Set of
templates that can be used to easily present values in scientific
notation, including uncertainty"
Another ugly template...


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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Chad
In reply to this post by jidanni
Try using counters in CSS.

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html#counters

-Chad

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:23 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gentlemen, In wikitext I want to do <ol start="6101">
>  <li>a
>  <li>b
> </ol>
> but http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html says that is
> deprecated. In fact I really want to just use "#" and have that
> start at 6101.  OK, I'll just hard wire them into the page 6101. a
> 6102. b
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: – Fixing {val}

Platonides
In reply to this post by Greg L
Greg L wrote:

> Yes, {val} is a tool for making attractive and convenient scientific  
> notation. The look of {{tl|val}} was discussed at length on both  
> WT:MOSNUM and WT:MOS and achieved broad support for how it works and  
> renders numbers. It delimits numbers with narrow spaces that aren’t  
> really “spaces”; they use CSS <span> tags to move characters. Thus,  
> the significands can be copied and pasted into Excel where they will  
> be treated as real numbers without the need to first hand-delete spaces.
>
> The problem with it {val} is outlined here at…
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=260819871 
>   -
> Developer_support_for_parser_function
>
> In a nutshell, about 5 to 10% of the time, {val} gives rounding  
> errors. For instance, the expression  {{val|0.55007|e=6}} will return  
> a significand of 0.550069.
>
> This is the product of the buggy math-based parser functions it must  
> use. To date, notwithstanding that Jimbo is solidly behind this, and  
> that Erik supports the production of the required parser function, no  
> volunteer developer has stepped up to the plate with a parser function  
> that can character-counting parser function.
>
> Greg

{{val}} is just a presentational template. It's trivial to create an
equivalent, fixed, parserfunction.


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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by jidanni
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:23 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gentlemen, In wikitext I want to do <ol start="6101">
>  <li>a
>  <li>b
> </ol>
> but http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html says that is
> deprecated.

It's been un-deprecated in HTML5, for what that's worth.  I don't know
whether XHTML2 has done so as well.

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Re: – Fixing {val}

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Platonides
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
> {{val}} is just a presentational template. It's trivial to create an
> equivalent, fixed, parserfunction.

We do not want to create a new parser function for every
presentational template people come up with.

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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Platonides
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Aryeh Gregor wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:23 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Gentlemen, In wikitext I want to do <ol start="6101">
>>  <li>a
>>  <li>b
>> </ol>
>> but http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html says that is
>> deprecated.
>
> It's been un-deprecated in HTML5, for what that's worth.  I don't know
> whether XHTML2 has done so as well.

IMHO it should be allowed to do
<ol start="6101">
# a
# b
</ol>

instead of having to revert to html to do this -otherwise not too
uncommon- action.


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Re: – Fixing {val}

Bugzilla from andrew@epstone.net
In reply to this post by Greg L
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Greg L <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is the product of the buggy math-based parser functions it must
> use. To date, notwithstanding that Jimbo is solidly behind this, and
> that Erik supports the production of the required parser function, no
> volunteer developer has stepped up to the plate with a parser function
> that can character-counting parser function.

Jimmy has absolutely no authority or expertise on technical matters
such as this. His opinion on the best way to implement such
presentational templates is, with respect, not necessarily informed
and not binding in any way, as he does not deal with site operations
or software development at this time.

While Erik may have authority over technical matters (he is Brion's
boss), I would imagine that, like in any organisation, he delegates
final decisions on matters such as this to Brion, who is, after all,
CTO.

The approach we want to take isn't exactly clear at this time -- this
discussion is being had in multiple places, and it basically boils
down to a wide expansion of parser functionality (i.e. inline LUA), or
the greater use of in-built parser functions for the *end* *result*,
rather than for the intermediate steps required. The current approach
of providing "building block" functions has been known to be
reasonably untenable for some time, for performance and usability
reasons (see a few threads up, Domas' rant about Cite).

--
Andrew Garrett

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Re: -- Fixing {val}

Platonides
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Platonides wrote:
>> {{val}} is just a presentational template. It's trivial to create an
>> equivalent, fixed, parserfunction.
>
> We do not want to create a new parser function for every
> presentational template people come up with.

I know, that's the problem of such approach.
Although it could be worth to parserify a set of stable core templates.
Not only would they be faster, they would be more readable.


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Re: – Fixing {val}

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Greg L
This discussion is getting side tracked.

The real complaint here is that

{{#expr:(0.00007 * 1000 * 1000) mod 1000}} is giving 69 when it should give 70.

This is NOT a formatting issue, but rather it is bug in the #expr
parser function, presumably caused by some kind of round-off error.

-Robert Rohde


On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Greg L <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, {val} is a tool for making attractive and convenient scientific
> notation. The look of {{tl|val}} was discussed at length on both
> WT:MOSNUM and WT:MOS and achieved broad support for how it works and
> renders numbers. It delimits numbers with narrow spaces that aren't
> really "spaces"; they use CSS <span> tags to move characters. Thus,
> the significands can be copied and pasted into Excel where they will
> be treated as real numbers without the need to first hand-delete spaces.
>
> The problem with it {val} is outlined here at…
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=260819871
>  -
> Developer_support_for_parser_function
>
> In a nutshell, about 5 to 10% of the time, {val} gives rounding
> errors. For instance, the expression  {{val|0.55007|e=6}} will return
> a significand of 0.550069.
>
> This is the product of the buggy math-based parser functions it must
> use. To date, notwithstanding that Jimbo is solidly behind this, and
> that Erik supports the production of the required parser function, no
> volunteer developer has stepped up to the plate with a parser function
> that can character-counting parser function.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Platonides wrote:
>
> Greg L wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> Can anyone figure out how to fix {{tl|val}} so an expression like
>>
>> {{val|0.55007|e=6}}
>>
>> …works properly?
>>
>> Greg L
>
>
> You can't figure out what it should do just from the description.
> I imagine you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Val "Set of
> templates that can be used to easily present values in scientific
> notation, including uncertainty"
> Another ugly template...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: – Fixing {val}

Aryeh Gregor
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This discussion is getting side tracked.
>
> The real complaint here is that
>
> {{#expr:(0.00007 * 1000 * 1000) mod 1000}} is giving 69 when it should give 70.
>
> This is NOT a formatting issue, but rather it is bug in the #expr
> parser function, presumably caused by some kind of round-off error.

$ php -r 'echo (0.00007 * 1000 * 1000) % 1000 . "\n";'
69
$ php -r 'echo (int)(0.00007 * 10000000) . "\n";'
699

The issue is bog-standard floating-point error.  If PHP has a decent
library for exact-precision arithmetic, we could probably use that.
Otherwise, template programmers will have to learn how floating-point
numbers work just like all other programmers in the universe.

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Re: -- Fixing {val}

Greg L
In reply to this post by Platonides
Aryeh, this reaction of “We do not want to create a new parser  
function for every presentational template people come up with” is  
understandable. However, I understand that a character-counting parser  
function in another form has been in the works for a long time but  
hasn’t proven to be reliable enough to be released into the wild.

If someone could finally develop a bullet-proof character-counting  
parser function, I’m quite certain that a number of valuable uses  
could be found for it. That is why I encourage the writing of a parser  
function over the effort of writing a developer’s version of a  
template that doesn’t work very well. The only reason {val} doesn’t  
work well is because it must rely upon math-based parser functions  
that produce rounding errors. Having said that…

The MOS and MOSNUM community has waited seven months for a version of  
{val} that works well for all numbers—even ones that are really big.  
Any developer who is willing to tackle this issue, regardless of  
whether it is a parser function or a revised version of {val}, would  
be most welcome. However, both Jimbo Wales (in particular) as well as  
Erik seemed to think the best way to leverage developer effort would  
be to produce the character-counting parser function as this would  
enable the production of template tools we haven’t even conceived of  
yet.

On Jan 31, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Platonides wrote:

Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Platonides wrote:
>> {{val}} is just a presentational template. It's trivial to create an
>> equivalent, fixed, parserfunction.
>
> We do not want to create a new parser function for every
> presentational template people come up with.

I know, that's the problem of such approach.
Although it could be worth to parserify a set of stable core templates.
Not only would they be faster, they would be more readable.


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Re: -- Fixing {val}

Aryeh Gregor
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:53 PM, greg_l_at_wikipedia
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Aryeh, this reaction of "We do not want to create a new parser
> function for every presentational template people come up with" is
> understandable. However, I understand that a character-counting parser
> function in another form has been in the works for a long time but
> hasn't proven to be reliable enough to be released into the wild.

It would be trivial to write up such a function, and in fact plenty of
people have.  I could add it right now in five minutes.  The question
is whether it's desirable to make templates into more of a
full-fledged programming language than they already are.  There's been
reluctance on many people's part to do that.  Personally, I think
they're close enough anyway so that you may as well give them some
basic string functions like {{#len:}}, if the Lua proposal isn't
accepted.

> The only reason {val} doesn't
> work well is because it must rely upon math-based parser functions
> that produce rounding errors.

As I said in my other response, the exact same errors occur in PHP,
and the same type of error occurs in all programming languages.  If
you aren't familiar with floating-point calculations, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point#Accuracy_problems

In a real programming language, of course, there would be workarounds
like defining new data types, whereas in template programming that
would be tricky.

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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Daniel Friesen
In reply to this post by Platonides
Someone needs to read a good WP article before they start mentioning
(X)HTML version numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML

HTML5 and XHTML5, called HTML5 as a general but like HTML4 and XHTML1.x
they are basically the same API with different tag parsing flavors. You
don't need to drop from XHTML into HTML to get v5 support.
As for XHTML2. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because XHTML was
v1 they're going to use sane numbers and move up to HTML5 and XHTML2
because the previous names were HTML4 and XHTML1. Nope, instead they've
made numbers parallel and the successors to HTML4 and XHTML1 are HTML5
and XHTML5.

XHTML2 is a completely different specification which is not backwards
compatible with old XHTML1 documents. Though it does look interesting,
going from a XHTML <a href="http://example.com"><img src="img.png"
alt="alt text" /></a> ^_^ and instead using <img src="img.png"
href="http://example.com">Alt text <em>With Emphasis!</em></img>, heh.

~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://nadir-seen-fire.com]
-Nadir-Point (http://nadir-point.com)
-Wiki-Tools (http://wiki-tools.com)
-MonkeyScript (http://monkeyscript.nadir-point.com)
-Animepedia (http://anime.wikia.com)
-Narutopedia (http://naruto.wikia.com)
-Soul Eater Wiki (http://souleater.wikia.com)



Platonides wrote:

> Aryeh Gregor wrote:
>  
>> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:23 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> Gentlemen, In wikitext I want to do <ol start="6101">
>>>  <li>a
>>>  <li>b
>>> </ol>
>>> but http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html says that is
>>> deprecated.
>>>      
>> It's been un-deprecated in HTML5, for what that's worth.  I don't know
>> whether XHTML2 has done so as well.
>>    
>
> IMHO it should be allowed to do
> <ol start="6101">
> # a
> # b
> </ol>
>
> instead of having to revert to html to do this -otherwise not too
> uncommon- action.
>  


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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Aryeh Gregor
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Daniel Friesen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Someone needs to read a good WP article before they start mentioning
> (X)HTML version numbers:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML

Both HTML5 and XHTML2 are successors to HTML4.  That's all that's
really relevant here.  HTML5 has un-deprecated the "start" attribute
of <ol>, so nobody should be worrying about HTML4's deprecation of it.
 (XHTML2 does appear to have removed the attribute, so I guess you
could worry about it if you plan to move to XHTML2 in the future.  But
probably nobody is going to use XHTML2, and MediaWiki almost certainly
isn't.)

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Re: – Fixing {val}

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This discussion is getting side tracked.
>>
>> The real complaint here is that
>>
>> {{#expr:(0.00007 * 1000 * 1000) mod 1000}} is giving 69 when it should give 70.
>>
>> This is NOT a formatting issue, but rather it is bug in the #expr
>> parser function, presumably caused by some kind of round-off error.
>
> $ php -r 'echo (0.00007 * 1000 * 1000) % 1000 . "\n";'
> 69
> $ php -r 'echo (int)(0.00007 * 10000000) . "\n";'
> 699
>
> The issue is bog-standard floating-point error.  If PHP has a decent
> library for exact-precision arithmetic, we could probably use that.
> Otherwise, template programmers will have to learn how floating-point
> numbers work just like all other programmers in the universe.

In r46671 I have added an explicit test for floating point numbers
that are within 1 part in 10^10 of integers before performing
round-off sensitive conversions and comparisons.

This should eliminate these errors in many cases.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: ordered lists starting at a certain number

Daniel Friesen
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
(X)HTML5 is the accepted successor to (X)HTML [HTML4/XHTML1.x]
XHTML2 is a branch standard of XHTML (there is no HTML equiv to it) with
different goals, purposes, and isn't even widely implemented enough to
be considered something viable for use. It's unlikely many browser
vendors are even going to implement support for it. But it is afact that
something called XHTML2 exists and it has nothing to do with HTML5.
I'm just piping up against the misnomer of using the name "XHTML2" when
you are actually referring to "XHTML5".


Though on the note... as I believe when it comes to it the doctype and
what kind of stuff you use/the browser uses have little to do with each
other.
Using an old (X)HTML doctype, I believe browsers that support it will
still make use of the <canvas /> element even though you're /supposed/
to use a (X)HTML5 doctype.
The DOCTYPE merely controls validation, and what browsers you want in
quirksmode, almost-standards, or standards mode. It might control
parsing a little, but to be honest the content-type is really the only
thing that at least Firefox considers for that. Even using a XHTML
doctype Firefox still parses your document using loose HTML rules. It
doesn't parse it with an XML parser unless you use application/xhtml+xml.

To be honest I've been on the personal debate lately on whether XHTML is
really viable. Or if it's better to just have my applications start
spitting out clean HTML with a HTML doctype rather than using XHTML.
Most browsers don't bother with the XML factor of XHTML, the fancy parts
of XHTML (like inline svg or more importantly, your own custom
namespaces) aren't widely supported enough, CSS can't style namespaced
nodes (Except in IE, which is strange because IE is the single browser
that makes the whole XHTML as XML factor lag), using an actual XML
generator to output your XHTML pages can cause invalid pages to be
outputted (script tags may likely  be outputted as <script src="..."/>
which breaks in all browsers except FF2 (FF3 purposefully makes that
break for it now), and an empty span as <span/> which can cause issues
when the browser doesn't parse the document using pure XML), and it's
actually fairly trivial to take a generated XML document and modify it
to be HTML.

~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://nadir-seen-fire.com]
-Nadir-Point (http://nadir-point.com)
-Wiki-Tools (http://wiki-tools.com)
-MonkeyScript (http://monkeyscript.nadir-point.com)
-Animepedia (http://anime.wikia.com)
-Narutopedia (http://naruto.wikia.com)
-Soul Eater Wiki (http://souleater.wikia.com)



Aryeh Gregor wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Daniel Friesen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Someone needs to read a good WP article before they start mentioning
>> (X)HTML version numbers:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML
>>    
>
> Both HTML5 and XHTML2 are successors to HTML4.  That's all that's
> really relevant here.  HTML5 has un-deprecated the "start" attribute
> of <ol>, so nobody should be worrying about HTML4's deprecation of it.
>  (XHTML2 does appear to have removed the attribute, so I guess you
> could worry about it if you plan to move to XHTML2 in the future.  But
> probably nobody is going to use XHTML2, and MediaWiki almost certainly
> isn't.)
>  


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Re: -- Fixing {val}

Platonides
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
> The issue is bog-standard floating-point error.  If PHP has a decent
> library for exact-precision arithmetic, we could probably use that.
> Otherwise, template programmers will have to learn how floating-point
> numbers work just like all other programmers in the universe.

http://www.php.net/bc


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