"Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

R.O.C
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "中文維基年會" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

在 2006/3/16,Anthere <[hidden email]> 撰寫:
> KJ wrote:
> > 關於大家的問題,我稍微跟大家做一下說明。
> >
> >
第一,為什麼我們要辦中文年會?根據淡江大學的研究指出,參與中文維基的人主要來自中國大陸、台灣,還有香港,世界各地也有許多華文使用人口在參與中文維基的計畫。我們來自不同國家,大家平常主要以各種即時通訊軟體聯絡,非常希望能見面,這是第一個目的,並希望藉由中文維基年會來解決華文環境所遇到的問題。
> >
> >
第二,為什麼我們的時間選得和2006國際維基媒體大會那麼近?這是考慮到並非所有的中文維基人都有能力--特別是經濟方面--去參加國際維基媒體大會,所以我們將時間定在國際維基媒體大會之後,加上考慮到大部分中文維基人都是沒有經濟能力的學生,因此將時間定於暑假期間。舉辦的確切時間並非籌備小組自行決定,而是開放讓所有維基人投票選出的時間。而選在國際維基媒體大會之後,也正好可以讓有能力去國際維基媒體大會的維基人們,來和無法參與的維基人們分享經驗。
> >
> >
第三,是否結合中文維基人的力量來幫忙國際維基媒體大會,會是節省人力的方法?我的回答是,今天即使中文維基人參與了國際維基媒體大會的籌備工作,我們仍然會舉辦中文的維基年會。
> >
> > 第四,關於所有的中文維基年會籌辦過程和會議記錄,完全公開在維基百科上。
> >
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
> >
> > 我預計會去參加波士頓的國際維基媒體大會,非常期待與大家見面,希望大家能給中文維基年會更多建議。謝謝。
> >
> > PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the
reasons

> > why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
> >
> >
> > --
> > KaurJmeb(KJ)
>
> KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
> conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
> united enough to do one.
> Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
> conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are done
> nearly at the same time.
>
> At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
> and more frequent as time.
> Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
> editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
> meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
> (in french)...
> Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
>
> Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
> Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
> In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
> myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
> Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
> english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
> where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
> are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help bridge
> between communities.
>
> I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
> often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
> and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
> same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
>
> ant
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Patrick, Brad
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-2
R.O.C.:

Thank you for this excellent summary.

In answer to the one question you ask about "Wikimedia" - this is also a trademark of the Foundation.  It is usually used in this sense to mean more than just Wikipedia, the encyclopedia project.  Of course, one of the major advances of zh. Is the new Chinese Wikinews site, so it is entirely appropriate for the conference to give people interested in any wiki issues the opportunity to communicate about any project.

I am absolutely not the right person to make any decisions about the use of trademarks; my strict legal opinion is that the Foundation does own the marks and is within its rights to license their use.  Personally, I can think of nothing better to help advance Wikiprojects in Chinese than allowing for the use of these marks to promote the sites.  I leave it to those closest to the conference on the Chinese side and the Chapter Coordinator/Wikimania project leader and her associates to work out the details of this.  The trademark committee knows it has my meager legal blessing in proceeding with a license for the August 2006 HK event at full speed.

I can't thank you enough for your eloquent and obviously heart-felt interest in bridging the gap between these two populations.  You are to be congratulated.

-BradP

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of R.O.C
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources, neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the chinese projects together with the foundation and the international community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese conference will probably target largely on local or chinese firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese conference is "中文�S基年��" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

在 2006/3/16,Anthere <[hidden email]> 撰��:
> KJ wrote:
> > �P於大家的���},我稍微跟大家做一下�f明。
> >
> >
第一,�槭颤N我��要�k中文年��?根��淡江大�W的研究指出,�⑴c中文�S基的人主要�碜灾��大�、台�常��有香港,世界各地也有�S多�A文使用人口在�⑴c中文�S基的���。我���碜圆煌���家,大家平常主要以各�N即�r通���w��j,非常希望能�面,�@是第一��目的,�K希望藉由中文�S基年���斫�Q�A文�h境所遇到的���}。
> >
> >
第二,�槭颤N我��的�r�g�x得和2006���H�S基媒�w大��那�N近?�@是考�]到�K非所有的中文�S基人都有能力--特�e是���方面--去�⒓���H�S基媒�w大��,所以我����r�g定在���H�S基媒�w大��之後,加上考�]到大部分中文�S基人都是�]有���能力的�W生,因此��r�g定於暑假期�g。�e�k的�_切�r�g�K非�I�湫〗M自行�Q定,而是�_放�所有�S基人投票�x出的�r�g。而�x在���H�S基媒�w大��之後,也正好可以�有能力去���H�S基媒�w大��的�S基人��,�砗�o法�⑴c的�S基人��分享��。
> >
> >
第三,是否�Y合中文�S基人的力量��兔���H�S基媒�w大��,��是�省人力的方法?我的回答是,今天即使中文�S基人�⑴c了���H�S基媒�w大��的�I�涔ぷ鳎�我��仍然���e�k中文的�S基年��。
> >
> > 第四,�P於所有的中文�S基年���I�k�^程和���h��,完全公�_在�S基百科上。
> >
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
> >
> > 我�A���去�⒓硬ㄊ款D的���H�S基媒�w大��,非常期待�c大家�面,希望大家能�o中文�S基年��更多建�h。�x�x。
> >
> > PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the
reasons

> > why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
> >
> >
> > --
> > KaurJmeb(KJ)
>
> KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
> conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
> united enough to do one.
> Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
> conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are
> done nearly at the same time.
>
> At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
> and more frequent as time.
> Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
> editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
> meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as
> well (in french)...
> Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
>
> Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
> Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
> In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
> myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
> Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
> english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
> where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
> are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help
> bridge between communities.
>
> I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
> often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
> and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do
> the same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
>
> ant
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by SJ-5
On 3/16/06, SJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In the beginning there were Logos,

And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Patrick, Brad
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-2
And it was good.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
Kong"

On 3/16/06, SJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In the beginning there were Logos,

And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message.

If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time and additional fees involved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A., and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

effeietsanders-list
Wow, what a lot of emails :)

Firstly I want to wish the Chinese a lot of succes with organizing their
conference, and I think it is a very good idea indeed. I myself came with an
idea for a wikimedia conference, then under the working name wikimania
reloaded, but now under the proposed name Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland,
WCN in the Netherlands. The main idea was that it should not be a conpetetor
of "Boston", but it should complete it. It should be a conference where
people could discuss the lectures of wikimania with eachother, but where
some lectures were repeated and even some new lectures maybe. In my original
idea it was about 50% discussiongroups and 50% lectures for probably just
one day (instead of Boston's three days?).
Because I am not orginizing it totally by myself, it wouldn't be very odd if
there come some changes in that idea though. It will indeed be in Dutch (at
least for the most part), primarily to the members of the Vereniging. (But
others will probably be welcome as well). I am very glad we have support
from Kennisnet, that already said that they want to be our main sponsor, and
will even help to set ip up.
I certainly hope that most ducth will, when they can afford it, go to both
conferences. The nice thing of NL is that we are reletively small, so
travellingcosts are not that high in NL itself. To Boston however we are
already soon speaking about €500 just for travel. Count then the nightings,
eating, conference-costs and (for students at least) you'll pay a fortune.
So it just will not be possible for a lót of people to go anyway. I guess
it's the same for china, danmark, poland, afrika, all over the world almost.
So it seems very logical to me that people start as well, beside not instead
of, their own conference. I would, if payable, prefer by far the boston
conference, and I think a lot of other people do as well. I think that most
people will try very hard to go to both national as international
conference.
Well, probably a lot of words, and little meaning. Just think it is the
language that is the problem here ;) And people, don't be afraight. People
really DO want to go to wikimania. Also when there is a national conf. It's
just something totally different!

Effeietsanders

ps: see for a (still very) short story about WCN:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN and http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN (in
dutch). Feedback is very welcome, please give it at the talkpage in the
dutch wikimedia-WCN-page or give me a mail.


2006/3/16, Patrick, Brad <[hidden email]>:

>
> And it was good.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
> Kong"
>
> On 3/16/06, SJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > In the beginning there were Logos,
>
> And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?
>
> --
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

SJ-5
In reply to this post by Titan Deng
On 3/16/06, THD <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why hold Chinese meetup just 3 weeks after the 2006 Wikimania?
Because
> we assume that there will be someone attending 2006 wikimania, and we
> want that one to share what he heard and saw in Boston with local
> wikipedians in OUR OWN LANGUAGE. If considerate enough, you shall know
> that it's not easy for people from PRC to go to the United States.

Hello again,

This makes perfect sense.  I am not concerned that this will detract
from Wikimania in any way; I think it will strengthen it.  Having
these conferences around the same time, paying attention to one
another, will be a Good Thing.


Delphine writes:
> 1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
be impeeded by other conferences around the world, because it:
> a) spreads the attendance
> b) spreads the sponsors
> c) spreads the speakers
> d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)

I actually think this will work out fine.  We expect to have to limit
Wikimania attendance; and the sponsors and speakers for the different
events seem unlikely to overlap (aside from which, Wikimania proper is
a much larger event than the others).

As effeitsanders notes, a national event is very different from a
worldwide event; and those who are planning on travelling far to make
it to the international Wikimedia Conference will likely still come
and also gladly attend a local event close to home.  The idea of
holding these satellite events after the international one, so that
great ideas and initiatives can be reprised or passed on, sounds cool
and workable to me.

Cheers and all success,
   SJ
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Jakob Voss-2
In reply to this post by R.O.C
R.O.C wrote:

> 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
> the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
> chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
> names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
> conference is "中文年維基會" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
> annual conference").

Is it

    chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?

I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:

Wiki: 維基
Wikipedia: 维基百科
Wikimedia: 維基媒體
Wikimania: 維基媒體國際大會

IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
problem with the English translation:

維基年會 is not "Wikimania" but just call it

"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".

> 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
> like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
> regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
> projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.

> 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
> been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
> be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
> wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
> conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
> of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
維基年會 is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So 維基年會 is
not Wikimania.

Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / 反證法)

1. Assume 維基年會 is Wikimania
2. Then 維基年會 is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But 維基年會 is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation

I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)

> hope that this is helpful.

Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)

Greetings,
Jakob

P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Titan Deng
THD wrote:

>Chinese wikipedia community is still young and small. Chinese
>wikipedians are seperated by historic and political factors. Taking me
>as an example, in the past, I couldn't imagine I can join a project
>and work together with people from the "Hostile the Other side of the
>Strait". Then, we argued and had many conflicts in the Chinese
>Wikipedia. And now, we are trying to see each other to make friends,
>to share the knowledge of intellectual property rights, the new
>discoveries of wiki technologies, and to exchange opinions of managing
>and promoting the wikipedia and all the projects which Wikimedia
>foundation hosts, in our conservative society and even in an
>environment where PRC government banned Wikipedia.
>
This is what it is all about!

While I do not agree with the actions of the PRC government in this, I
can understand why they might be doing it.  It is still better than in
North Korea where as far as I can tell they avoid the problem by having
no public access to the internet at all.  During the time of the Shu
Jing the government could feel secure through it's control of the
calendar.  Being unable to control the public's access to information
can be very scary for governments who no longer would have the ability
to control the results.  When  the people cpme to an understanding by
themselves without the help of government, what need do we have of
governments?

>I admit the importance to work together. But I don't think we should
>do the same thing together all the time. After the wikimania in
>Boston, it's time to spread to strenthen the power of Wikimedia.
>
That's for the affected people to resolve.  I will not be attending this
event in Hong Kong, so my opinion does not matter.

Ec

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Jakob Voss-2
Hi all,

I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)

Here's some observations:

- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "中文�S基年��" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.

-Andrew

On 3/17/06, Jakob Voss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> R.O.C wrote:
>
> > 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
> > the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
> > chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
> > names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
> > conference is "中文年�S基��" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
> > annual conference").
>
> Is it
>
>     chinese language wikipedia annual conference
> or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
> or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
>
> I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:
>
> Wiki: �S基
> Wikipedia: 维基百科
> Wikimedia: �S基媒�w
> Wikimania: �S基媒�w���H大��
>
> IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
> problem with the English translation:
>
> �S基年�� is not "Wikimania" but just call it
>
> "Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
>
> > 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
> > like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
> > regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
> > projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
>
> Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
> Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
> you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
> official and will keep this discussion going on.
>
> > 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
> > been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
> > be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
> > wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
> > conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
> > of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
>
> Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
> �S基年�� is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So �S基年�� is
> not Wikimania.
>
> Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / 反�C法)
>
> 1. Assume �S基年�� is Wikimania
> 2. Then �S基年�� is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
> 3. But �S基年�� is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
>
> I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
> philosophy ;-)
>
> > hope that this is helpful.
>
> Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
> to understand from the european point of view :-)
>
> Greetings,
> Jakob
>
> P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
> interwiki links :-)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
Anthere wrote:

>At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
>and more frequent as time.
>Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
>editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
>meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
>(in french)...
>Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
>
>Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
>Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
>In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
>myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
>Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
>english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
>where many people do not speak english at all.
>
>French people generally are *bad* in english.
>
English people are even worse in French

>I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
>often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
>and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
>same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
>
World and national (or regional) meetings serve completely different
purposes. It's perfectly understandable that very few people from China
appeared at the Frankfurt Wikimania. By having these national meetings
soon after Wikimania it gives those who attended Wikimania an
opportunity to share their experiences with their colleagues that
couldn't make the trip to the other side of the world.

On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?

Ec (Ray)


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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

SJ-5
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia).  Good
luck with your move!

--SJ

PS -  Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...


On 3/16/06, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
> between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
> the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
> even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
>
> Here's some observations:
>
> - Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
> it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
> complete freedom of speech here.
> - The name, if translated literally, for "中文�S基年��" (zhong wen wei ji
> nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
> - I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
> internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
> Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
> Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
> - Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
> me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
> to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On 3/17/06, Jakob Voss <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > R.O.C wrote:
> >
> > > 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
> > > the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
> > > chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
> > > names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
> > > conference is "中文年�S基��" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
> > > annual conference").
> >
> > Is it
> >
> >     chinese language wikipedia annual conference
> > or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
> > or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
> >
> > I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:
> >
> > Wiki: �S基
> > Wikipedia: 维基百科
> > Wikimedia: �S基媒�w
> > Wikimania: �S基媒�w���H大��
> >
> > IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
> > problem with the English translation:
> >
> > �S基年�� is not "Wikimania" but just call it
> >
> > "Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
> >
> > > 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
> > > like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
> > > regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
> > > projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
> >
> > Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
> > Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
> > you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
> > official and will keep this discussion going on.
> >
> > > 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
> > > been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
> > > be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
> > > wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
> > > conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
> > > of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
> >
> > Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > �S基年�� is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So �S基年�� is
> > not Wikimania.
> >
> > Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / 反�C法)
> >
> > 1. Assume �S基年�� is Wikimania
> > 2. Then �S基年�� is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
> > 3. But �S基年�� is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
> > philosophy ;-)
> >
> > > hope that this is helpful.
> >
> > Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
> > to understand from the european point of view :-)
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Jakob
> >
> > P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
> > interwiki links :-)
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

--
++SJ

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

R.O.C
thank you very much for those friendly and supportive messages. it is great
to learn about WCN, which i think has similar goals as the chinese
conference. i think that these events are helpful, constructive, and
beneficial, and i believe that all the three conferences will be blessed.

regarding the chinese name, i see a similar case here in which "維基年會" might
have been misunderstood. "維基年會" is not and shall not be called "wikimania".
to put long explanations/reasons about the two languages short, here is the
cheat sheet:

"wikimania" = "維基媒體國際大會" (literally, "wikimedia international conference")
or if it'll be held annually "維基媒體國際年會" (literally, "wikimedia international
annual conference")

"wiki" = "圍紀" (similar pronunciation with "維基", literally "order and
organized by (working) together") or "維客"

"維基" functions as an adjective or defining noun, meaning any project
sponsored by wikimedia foundation, it is also used informally as a short
form of "維基百科" (wikipedia) or "中文維基百科" (chinese wikipedia). several chinese
users have warned that "維基" need to be treated as a trading name for
projects of wikimedia, and "wiki" should not be translated as "維基" (use "圍紀"
instead). the interwiki link in en.wikipedia seems misplaced.

"wikimedia" = "維基媒體"

"wikipedia" = "維基百科"

that being said, the "維基" in the name of chinese conference "中文維基年會" means
both wikipedia and wikimedia.

the reason why "chinese wikipedia conference" or "chinese wikipedian
conference" is disfavored is that, there are chinese projects on wikisource,
wikibooks, wikiquotes, wikitionary, wikispecies, and the recently opened
(yeah~~) wikinews. the conference will not limit topics on chinese
wikipedia, and contributors of the other projects are anticipated at the
conference, so they should be respected.

roc
--

2006/3/16, SJ < [hidden email]>:

>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
> shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia).  Good
> luck with your move!
>
> --SJ
>
> PS -  Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...
>
>
> On 3/16/06, Andrew Lih < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
> > between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
> > the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
> > even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
> >
> > Here's some observations:
> >
> > - Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
> > it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
> > complete freedom of speech here.
> > - The name, if translated literally, for "中文維基年會" (zhong wen wei ji
> > nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
> > - I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
> > internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
> > Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
> > Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
> > - Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
> > me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
> > to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On 3/17/06, Jakob Voss <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > R.O.C wrote:
> > >
> > > > 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english
> translation for
> > > > the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation
> policies. the
> > > > chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization
> for using
> > > > names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the
> chinese
> > > > conference is "中文年維基會" (literally, "chinese language
> wikipedia/wikimedia
> > > > annual conference").
> > >
> > > Is it
> > >
> > >     chinese language wikipedia annual conference
> > > or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
> > > or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
> > >
> > > I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:
> > >
> > > Wiki: 維基
> > > Wikipedia: 维基百科
> > > Wikimedia: 維基媒體
> > > Wikimania: 維基媒體國際大會
> > >
> > > IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
> > > problem with the English translation:
> > >
> > > 維基年會 is not "Wikimania" but just call it
> > >
> > > "Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
> > >
> > > > 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference"
> and would
> > > > like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the
> foundation
> > > > regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving
> chinese
> > > > projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
> > >
> > > Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
> > > Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
>
> > > you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
> > > official and will keep this discussion going on.
> > >
> > > > 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of
> "wikimania" had
> > > > been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is
> supposed to
> > > > be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at
> zh.wikipedia that
> > > > wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international
> wikimedia
> > > > conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a
> trading name
> > > > of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
> > >
> > > Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia
> Foundation.
> > > 維基年會 is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So 維基年會 is
> > > not Wikimania.
> > >
> > > Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / 反證法)
> > >
> > > 1. Assume 維基年會 is Wikimania
> > > 2. Then 維基年會 is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
> > > 3. But 維基年會 is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > > I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
> > > philosophy ;-)
> > >
> > > > hope that this is helpful.
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not
> easy
> > > to understand from the european point of view :-)
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > > Jakob
> > >
> > > P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just
> using
> > > interwiki links :-)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ++SJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

KIZU Naoko
Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.

Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is,  I
suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
who are capable in Chinese :-)

Cheers,





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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
> a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
> chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
> 5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
> right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
> us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
> pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
> possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
>
> Ec (Ray)

As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
arrange it.

ant

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by R.O.C
Hello ROC

Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Just a couple of points

R.O.C wrote:

> it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
> address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
> would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
> chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
> been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
> the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
> without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
> misunderstandings.
>
> i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
> user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
> participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
> would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
> and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
>
> 1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
> with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
> project page (
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
> in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
> few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
> english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
> course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

thanks

> 2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
> of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
> foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
> neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
> not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
> english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
> administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
> until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
> yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
> chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
> community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
know each other better.

> 3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
> languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
> even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
> english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
> it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
> efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
> chinese.

Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
it... better than some americans :-)

> 4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
> mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
> small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
> the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
> messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
> meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
> of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
> addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
> conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
> separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
> local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
> for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
> wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
> difficulties.
>
> 5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
> discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
> there were several considerations.
>
> 5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
> zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
> international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
> for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
> to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
> likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
> chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
> there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
> would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.

> 5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
> (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
> might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
> conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
> firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
> chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
> fund/resources.
>
> 5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
> that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
> from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
> expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
>
> 5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
> conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
> convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
>
> 6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
> loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
> on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
> used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
> consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
> wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
>
> 6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
> better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
>
> 6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
> saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
> organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
> for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
> have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
> gaps between the two parts of our community.
>
> 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
> the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
> chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
> names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
> conference is "中文維基年會" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
> annual conference").


I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.


> 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
> like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
> regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
> projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.

> 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
> been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
> be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
> wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
> conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
> of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
>
> hope that this is helpful.

Yes.
Very helpful.

Thanks ROC

Anthere


> roc (User:R.O.C)

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Delphine Ménard
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
On 3/17/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> > On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
> > a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
> > chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
> > 5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
> > right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
> > us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
> > pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
> > possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
> >
> > Ec (Ray)
>
> As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
> arrange it.


And I would definitely be there.

Delphine

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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

R.O.C
In reply to this post by KIZU Naoko
thank you for your blessing and especially important the clarification
from a non-chinese who understand 漢字/hanzi/kanji/hanja/hántự (the
characters used in these languages). i appreciate it very much!

as for the conference, i am very confident that it will be conducted
in a chinese language (probably mandarin), although interpreting
services may be offered if needed and able. it is also clear that the
scope of the conference is limited to discussions on chinese projects
of wikimedia (no politics, no projects specific to other languages).

as for attendees from non-chinese speaking population or those living
outside of chinese areas, i have talked to the organizers of the
chinese conference and we have the same position:

1) people will not be turned away at the door (exept if deemed
disruptive or dangerous), however, the working language and the scope
of conference is emphasised, and we encourage people to explore and
attend the wikimania in boston, which is probably more suitble,
helpful, educational, stimulating, entertaining, etc, for general
wikmedia contributors/researchers.

2) people who are interested in chinese projects of wikimedia should
be all welcome to attend, whether he/she is a contributor or not of
chinese (or any) projects of wikimedia. the goal is to help chinese
projects of wikimedia to grow better, keep healthy, reach more, and so
on.

please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
respectful to our efforts.

roc
--

2006/3/17, Aphaia <[hidden email]>:

> Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
> I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
> Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
> bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.
>
> Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
> now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is,  I
> suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
> francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
> neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
> stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
> who are capable in Chinese :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
> email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

R.O.C
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
internal-l shortly.

ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.

thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
near) and hopefully meet you guys.

emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.

best,

roc
--

2006/3/17, Anthere <[hidden email]>:

> Hello ROC
>
> Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
> Just a couple of points
>
> R.O.C wrote:
> > it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
> > address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
> > would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
> > chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
> > been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
> > the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
> > without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
> > misunderstandings.
> >
> > i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
> > user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
> > participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
> > would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
> > and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
> >
> > 1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
> > with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
> > project page (
> > http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
> > in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
> > few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
> > english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
> > course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)
>
> thanks
>
> > 2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
> > of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
> > foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
> > neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
> > not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
> > english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
> > administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
> > until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
> > yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
> > chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
> > community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.
>
> please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
> of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
> is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
> South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
> from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
> time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
> know each other better.
>
> > 3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
> > languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
> > even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
> > english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
> > it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
> > efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
> > chinese.
>
> Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
> it... better than some americans :-)
>
> > 4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
> > mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
> > small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
> > the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
> > messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
> > meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
> > of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
> > addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
> > conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
> > separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
> > local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
> > for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
> > wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
> > difficulties.
> >
> > 5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
> > discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
> > there were several considerations.
> >
> > 5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
> > zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
> > international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
> > for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
> > to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
> > likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
> > chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
> > there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
> > would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.
>
> Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
> help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.
>
> > 5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
> > (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
> > might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
> > conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
> > firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
> > chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
> > fund/resources.
> >
> > 5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
> > that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
> > from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
> > expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
> >
> > 5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
> > conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
> > convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
> >
> > 6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
> > loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
> > on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
> > used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
> > consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
> > wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
> >
> > 6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
> > better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
> >
> > 6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
> > saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
> > organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
> > for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
> > have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
> > gaps between the two parts of our community.
> >
> > 6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
> > the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
> > chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
> > names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
> > conference is "中文維基年會" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
> > annual conference").
>
>
> I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
> best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
> involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.
>
>
> > 6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
> > like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
> > regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
> > projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
>
> As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.
>
> > 6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
> > been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
> > be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
> > wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
> > conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
> > of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
> >
> > hope that this is helpful.
>
> Yes.
> Very helpful.
>
> Thanks ROC
>
> Anthere
>
>
> > roc (User:R.O.C)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Delphine Ménard
In reply to this post by R.O.C
On 3/17/06, R. O. C <[hidden email]> wrote:

> please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
> respectful to our efforts.

Thank you. You're precious.

Delphine
--
~notafish
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Re: "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Titan Deng
In reply to this post by R.O.C
Haha....ROC you just praised me too much. I can't express myself as clear as
you do, and I don't think my english skill is good. No matter what, I think
we need more communication with the Foundation and here. I hope it's not too
hard for people here to understand what I said.

Theodoranian

2006/3/18, R. O. C <[hidden email]>:

>
> anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
> preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
> trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
> internal-l shortly.
>
> ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
> too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
> most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
> probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
> even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
> questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
> frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
> sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
> the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
> have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
> will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.
>
> thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
> so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
> near) and hopefully meet you guys.
>
> emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
> to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
> be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
> people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
> have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
> asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.
>
> best,
>
> roc
> --
>
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