"I want to at least kill the responsible person."

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"I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
Now might be an interesting time to mention the usual excuse when
religious fanatics are blowing up a market, an embassy or a subway
train: Islam means peace.

Did I say excuse? I am sorry, I meant refutation. The excuse is
usually a variation of "You offended me".

Next time, one out 1 billion muslims forgets his/her good manners, the
ones responsible are: You, Wikipedians, thanks to our policy to spread
knowledge (which we all know is the greatest enemy any kind of
religion).

A nice place to observe peacefulness under the label of a religion can
be found at a petition
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?mjk123&1 to the
"Wikepedia Authorities" to apply sharia to wikipedia.org content, as
interpreted by the undersigned.  The petition can be found at
http://www.petitiononline.com/mjk123/petition.html

Mathias

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

geni
On 01/02/2008, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Now might be an interesting time to mention the usual excuse when
> religious fanatics are blowing up a market, an embassy or a subway
> train: Islam means peace.
>
> Did I say excuse? I am sorry, I meant refutation. The excuse is
> usually a variation of "You offended me".
>
> Next time, one out 1 billion muslims forgets his/her good manners, the
> ones responsible are: You, Wikipedians, thanks to our policy to spread
> knowledge (which we all know is the greatest enemy any kind of
> religion).
>
> A nice place to observe peacefulness under the label of a religion can
> be found at a petition
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?mjk123&1 to the
> "Wikepedia Authorities" to apply sharia to wikipedia.org content, as
> interpreted by the undersigned.  The petition can be found at
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mjk123/petition.html
>
> Mathias

They've got 50 sigs big deal. Yes having the images of Mohamed in the
Mohamed article is upsetting Muslims but so far ~<1% of responses to
the larger online petition (now up to 62K sigs) have suggested
violence. Compares well to things like animal rights or flag buring or
other silly things westerners get upset about.

--
geni

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Leia Yeung
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
If you truly have an issue with the image, my suggestion is to email OTRS at
[hidden email], bringing up this issue.

On Feb 1, 2008 2:42 PM, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Now might be an interesting time to mention the usual excuse when
> religious fanatics are blowing up a market, an embassy or a subway
> train: Islam means peace.
>
> Did I say excuse? I am sorry, I meant refutation. The excuse is
> usually a variation of "You offended me".
>
> Next time, one out 1 billion muslims forgets his/her good manners, the
> ones responsible are: You, Wikipedians, thanks to our policy to spread
> knowledge (which we all know is the greatest enemy any kind of
> religion).
>
> A nice place to observe peacefulness under the label of a religion can
> be found at a petition
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?mjk123&1 to the
> "Wikepedia Authorities" to apply sharia to wikipedia.org content, as
> interpreted by the undersigned.  The petition can be found at
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mjk123/petition.html
>
> Mathias
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Leia Yeung

Glacier Wolf @ en.wikipedia, wikia
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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
On Feb 1, 2008 9:40 PM, Leia Yeung <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you truly have an issue with the image, my suggestion is to email OTRS at
> [hidden email], bringing up this issue.

OTRS and some of the info queues there do regularily get emails
asking/demanding the takedown of these images. We usually reply with
explaining the NPOV and the editorial decision to keep the picture,
while at the same time mentioning the iconophobic tendencies of such
believes.

Mathias

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

michael west-3
On 01/02/2008, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Feb 1, 2008 9:40 PM, Leia Yeung <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If you truly have an issue with the image, my suggestion is to email
> OTRS at
> > [hidden email], bringing up this issue.
>
> OTRS and some of the info queues there do regularily get emails
> asking/demanding the takedown of these images. We usually reply with
> explaining the NPOV and the editorial decision to keep the picture,
> while at the same time mentioning the iconophobic tendencies of such
> believes.
>
> Mathias


Funnily enough somebody has posted the nreply to there wikiticket on their
blog
http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/2008/02/wikipedia-reply-on-prophet-muhammad.html
-
As for the talk page on the Mohammed article, I think that the editors there
must have the patience of Job.

If anybody is interested in early art history and depictions of the prophet
theres a short article here
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

I wish these things didn't blow up  into full war - on that note
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy/Arguments/Image-Display,
details how to edit your monbook.js so that images aren't shown.

Mike33
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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Wily D
On Feb 1, 2008 8:40 PM, michael west <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/02/2008, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 1, 2008 9:40 PM, Leia Yeung <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > If you truly have an issue with the image, my suggestion is to email
> > OTRS at
> > > [hidden email], bringing up this issue.
> >
> > OTRS and some of the info queues there do regularily get emails
> > asking/demanding the takedown of these images. We usually reply with
> > explaining the NPOV and the editorial decision to keep the picture,
> > while at the same time mentioning the iconophobic tendencies of such
> > believes.
> >
> > Mathias
>
>
> Funnily enough somebody has posted the nreply to there wikiticket on their
> blog
> http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/2008/02/wikipedia-reply-on-prophet-muhammad.html
> -
> As for the talk page on the Mohammed article, I think that the editors there
> must have the patience of Job.
>
> If anybody is interested in early art history and depictions of the prophet
> theres a short article here
> http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/
>
> I wish these things didn't blow up  into full war - on that note
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy/Arguments/Image-Display,
> details how to edit your monbook.js so that images aren't shown.
>
> Mike33
>
Indeed, Talk:Muhammad now also has an FAQ, that includes instructions
on how to disable images on [[Muhammad]].

It's probably also worth mentioning "online petitions" have circulated
at least once before on the issue, and some combination of bots &
humans got the tally up to ~50K.

Cheers
WilyD

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

geni
On 02/02/2008, Wily D <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Indeed, Talk:Muhammad now also has an FAQ, that includes instructions
> on how to disable images on [[Muhammad]].
>
> It's probably also worth mentioning "online petitions" have circulated
> at least once before on the issue, and some combination of bots &
> humans got the tally up to ~50K.
>
> Cheers
> WilyD
>

Still going. 68K now:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia

--
geni

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

James Farrar
On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Still going. 68K now:
>
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia

I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Angela Anuszewski-2
On Feb 3, 2008 12:38 PM, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Still going. 68K now:
> >
> > http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
>
> I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)
 Did you expect academic excellence from a group that advocated censorship? :)

Angela

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Ben Yates-2
We should provide an alternate "Mohammad" page without any images on
it.  Telling people to edit their javascript is silly; most people
aren't nearly tech savvy enough to understand what that even means
(for example, they have to first understand that a web page can be
displayed differently for different users).

On Feb 3, 2008 2:33 PM, Angela Anuszewski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2008 12:38 PM, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Still going. 68K now:
> > >
> > > http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
> >
> > I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)
>  Did you expect academic excellence from a group that advocated censorship? :)
>
> Angela
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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>



--
Ben Yates
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Ben Yates-2
And of course, the article should warn people at the beginning that it
contains images of mohammad and direct them to the alternate page if
they don't want to see them.  Sure, some people are insane fanatics,
but others aren't; I think those are simple steps that would diffuse a
lot of this.

On Feb 4, 2008 4:53 AM, Ben Yates <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We should provide an alternate "Mohammad" page without any images on
> it.  Telling people to edit their javascript is silly; most people
> aren't nearly tech savvy enough to understand what that even means
> (for example, they have to first understand that a web page can be
> displayed differently for different users).
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2008 2:33 PM, Angela Anuszewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Feb 3, 2008 12:38 PM, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Still going. 68K now:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
> > >
> > > I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)
> >  Did you expect academic excellence from a group that advocated censorship? :)
> >
> > Angela
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ben Yates
> Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com
>



--
Ben Yates
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by Ben Yates-2
On Feb 4, 2008 10:53 AM, Ben Yates <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We should provide an alternate "Mohammad" page without any images on
> it.  Telling people to edit their javascript is silly; most people
> aren't nearly tech savvy enough to understand what that even means
> (for example, they have to first understand that a web page can be
> displayed differently for different users).

There is a rather fundamental flaw in this proposal (actually, in
both): They don't want a page where they can look at without having to
see an image that is said to be that of its founder, they want the
picture removed completely. The javascript/css-option is only meant as
an alibi, without any chance to actually appease those who prefer
censorship over content they don't agree with. The more complicated
the option is, the longer it might serve as a diversion. A better
choice would be a patch the firefox sources that disables rendering of
images that contain "muhammad" (in different spellings) that needs
recompilation of firefox.

Mathias

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
Use of the word "the" is abhorrent to my religion.
I demand all use of the word "the" be stricken from Wikipedia.
I have to go purify myself because I've used the word  "the".



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.    
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
On 04/02/2008, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Feb 4, 2008 10:53 AM, Ben Yates <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We should provide an alternate "Mohammad" page without any images on
> > it.  Telling people to edit their javascript is silly; most people
> > aren't nearly tech savvy enough to understand what that even means
> > (for example, they have to first understand that a web page can be
> > displayed differently for different users).
>
> There is a rather fundamental flaw in this proposal (actually, in
> both): They don't want a page where they can look at without having to
> see an image that is said to be that of its founder, they want the
> picture removed completely. The javascript/css-option is only meant as
> an alibi, without any chance to actually appease those who prefer
> censorship over content they don't agree with. The more complicated
> the option is, the longer it might serve as a diversion. A better
> choice would be a patch the firefox sources that disables rendering of
> images that contain "muhammad" (in different spellings) that needs
> recompilation of firefox.

Unfortunately, Muhammad is a very common name, so there would be a
large number of false positives with that approach.

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
On Feb 4, 2008 12:32 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unfortunately, Muhammad is a very common name, so there would be a
> large number of false positives with that approach.

That would be perfectly consistent with the usual effects of such a
(self-)censorship tool. On the other hand, since naming a teddy bear
Muhammad can bring you into trouble, looking at one with that name is
already dangerously close. Thanks to the power of ASCII art, switching
to links/lynx text based browsers won't work either.

Mathias

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
On Feb 4, 2008 10:05 AM, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Feb 4, 2008 10:53 AM, Ben Yates <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We should provide an alternate "Mohammad" page without any images on
> > it.  Telling people to edit their javascript is silly; most people
> > aren't nearly tech savvy enough to understand what that even means
> > (for example, they have to first understand that a web page can be
> > displayed differently for different users).
>
> There is a rather fundamental flaw in this proposal (actually, in
> both): They don't want a page where they can look at without having to
> see an image that is said to be that of its founder, they want the
> picture removed completely. The javascript/css-option is only meant as
> an alibi, without any chance to actually appease those who prefer
> censorship over content they don't agree with. The more complicated
> the option is, the longer it might serve as a diversion. A better
> choice would be a patch the firefox sources that disables rendering of
> images that contain "muhammad" (in different spellings) that needs
> recompilation of firefox.

I read a few of the comments, and one of them actually has a point:
There are apparently no "real" images of Mohammad, only phantasy
drawings of what he might have looked like.

I have little sympathy for /any/ religion which claims to be offended
by the truth (that is, all religions;-) but in this case, we already
have
[[Depictions of Muhammad]]

So, IMHO a compromise could be to move all the depictions there. I
realize that's not what the petitioners want, which is to ban /all/
these images from wikipedia, but, well, tough luck. Don't want to see
depictions of Muhammad? Don't go to [[Depictions of Muhammad]]!

I think this is as far as we can go, but no further.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
On Feb 4, 2008 2:40 PM, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I read a few of the comments, and one of them actually has a point:
> There are apparently no "real" images of Mohammad, only phantasy
> drawings of what he might have looked like.

No difference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer (even at *gasp*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God)

Mathias

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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Wily D
In reply to this post by James Farrar
The lack of proof-reading hurts their case way more when you see
different posters from different continents posting identical comments
with identical typos ...

WilyD

On Feb 3, 2008 12:38 PM, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Still going. 68K now:
> >
> > http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
>
> I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Nathan Awrich
If this thread is going to continue, maybe we can fork it into
something with a different title?

On Feb 4, 2008 10:36 AM, Wily D <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The lack of proof-reading hurts their case way more when you see
> different posters from different continents posting identical comments
> with identical typos ...
>
> WilyD
>
> On Feb 3, 2008 12:38 PM, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 02/02/2008, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Still going. 68K now:
> > >
> > > http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
> >
> > I request they at least proof-read their petition. "holly figures"??? :)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
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Re: "I want to at least kill the responsible person."

Mathias Schindler-2
On Feb 4, 2008 4:39 PM, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If this thread is going to continue, maybe we can fork it into
> something with a different title?

Maybe into "I want to at lest kill the responsible person who changed
the subject line".

Mathias

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