"Stocking personal details"

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"Stocking personal details"

Wyatt Lucas
"Under the French penal code, stocking personal details including race,
sexuality, political leanings or religious affiliation is punishable by
five-year prison sentences and fines of up to euro300,000 ($411,000)."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/24/jew-or-not-jew-iphone-app_n_1111730.html


Doesn't this technically make the French Wikipedia illegal? I don't
really understand this law's nuances, so I'm wondering if someone with
more knowledge could elaborate.
--
~~yutsi


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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Thomas Dalton
On 19 August 2012 02:32, yutsi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Under the French penal code, stocking personal details including race,
> sexuality, political leanings or religious affiliation is punishable by
> five-year prison sentences and fines of up to euro300,000 ($411,000)."
>
> —
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/24/jew-or-not-jew-iphone-app_n_1111730.html
>
>
> Doesn't this technically make the French Wikipedia illegal? I don't really
> understand this law's nuances, so I'm wondering if someone with more
> knowledge could elaborate.

The French Wikipedia is written in the French language, but it isn't
French. It is hosted by an American charity on servers in America (and
a few in the Netherlands, I think). French law doesn't apply.

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Andreas Kolbe-2
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>wrote:

> The French Wikipedia is written in the French language, but it isn't
> French. It is hosted by an American charity on servers in America (and
> a few in the Netherlands, I think). French law doesn't apply.
>


This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give an
example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
(the German Signpost):

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Kurier&oldid=103520132
 (NSFW)

He took the video out again, and the Verein helped him with a lawyer. In
the end the prosecutor's office let him off, it seems because the single
edit was too minor an offence for them to prosecute. But there is no
question that if you live in a country, and do things in Wikipedia that are
illegal in your country, you are individually liable under the laws of your
country.

Remember that the legal liability is always first and foremost the
contributor's, and not the Foundation's. In the German case, the police and
prosecutor's office came for Achim as an individual. They did not come for
the WMF or Wikimedia Germany.

Whether or not this is a problem for French Wikimedians working in French
Wikipedia depends purely and solely on French law.
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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Thomas Dalton
On 19 August 2012 10:54, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give an
> example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
> call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
> the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
> pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
> pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
> (the German Signpost):

Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
and the law of a country that speaks that language.

The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
very different things.

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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Andreas Kolbe-2
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 19 August 2012 10:54, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is quite wrong, and a dangerous fallacy to promote, Thomas. To give
> an
> > example, a few months back, German Wikipedian Achim Raschka got a phone
> > call from the German police over his addition of a pornographic video to
> > the German article on pornography. The video he added violated German
> > pornography law, which requires an effective age filter for explicit
> > pornographic material. Achim wrote about his experience in the "Kurier"
> > (the German Signpost):
>
> Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
> equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
> though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
> and the law of a country that speaks that language.
>


In actual practice, I don't believe this is entirely correct either. If
Achim had added the video to the Navajo Wikipedia, for example, rather than
the German Wikipedia, then I think the German prosecutor's office would
have been less likely to pursue the case in the interest of the German
people.



> The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
> contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
> very different things.



Well, it's just that you made it sound like there could not possibly be any
legal problem, and that French law had no bearing on the matter at all.
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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Andreas Kolbe-2
As French Wikimedians are unlikely to see this thread here on wikien-l (and
wikifr-l seems moribund), I've dropped a post about this to wikimedia-l.

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-August/121744.html
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Re: "Stocking personal details"

WereSpielChequers-2
It isn't just a French issue, the whole of the European Union has Data
Protection Law based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive

And the categories of "Sensitive" data are similar across the EU.
Ethnicity, religion, health and Political opinion being perhaps the most
relevant to us. I think that not all countries defined criminal record as
Sensitive, and the UK apparently opted out of the philosophical opinions
bit, but the legislation across Europe has commonalities, though it would
be stretching a point to describe it as harmonised.

But the good thing is that it isn't as simple as a ban on processing such
data, there are various exemptions, and I'm pretty sure they include if the
individual has made that information publicly known. So French citizens are
allowed to know what political party their President is a member of, and
they can't be prosecuted simply for categorising the Pope as a Roman
Catholic. However just because somebody's parents, siblings and children
have self identified as Jewish doesn't mean that they also have disclosed
that information about themselves.

Now that we have chapters in some of these countries it might be worth
starting a dialogue with the various Information Commissioners (apologies
if this is already happening). I would hope that our existing policies
largely cover us here, provided that is that we editors living in the EU
treat what they consider to be "sensitive" data about living people as
contentious data.  But there could be some grey areas, for example if no EU
source is covering something then an EU editor sourcing a fact from a
reliable source in the US might be in difficulty. Especially if that "fact"
was something that EU sources weren't covering because they had no legal
basis to do so.

I would hope that we could get some guidelines agreed between European
chapter and their national Information Commissioners, and that those
guidelines could then be communicated to editors; Both to reassure people
as to where the boundaries are and so that we in Europe know to leave
certain things to our colleagues outside the EU.

WSC





On 19 August 2012 13:23, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As French Wikimedians are unlikely to see this thread here on wikien-l (and
> wikifr-l seems moribund), I've dropped a post about this to wikimedia-l.
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-August/121744.html
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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>
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Re: "Stocking personal details"

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:32 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Achim lives in Germany, so is very much subject to German law. He's
> equally subject to German law if he edits the English Wikipedia,
> though. There is no connection between a particular language Wikipedia
> and the law of a country that speaks that language.
>
> The OP said that the French Wikipedia was illegal, not that
> contributing to Wikipedia while in France could be illegal. They are
> very different things.

And you said "French law doesn't apply."  You didn't say "France is
unlikely to be able extradite people from the United States over the
issue."  They are very different things.

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